Still can't get my brisket jiggly

[Dave Russell]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I was pretty happy with my last two briskets, which were choice packers around 15lbs or so and cooked on my 22" wsm without water in the pan, 250-300 or so and wrapped with butcher paper some time mid cook when the color looked good.

I'm hoping for more moisture in the flat next time by allowing for a little longer rest time, but maybe you've got a little too high expectations from the flat? I mean, it's comparatively lean and never gonna be as juicey as the point, right?

 

[PeterD]

I think I'd be happy with that level of bendiness and visible separation of the fibres and connective tissue. The flats of the ones I turn out are much denser and would not bend 180° degrees that easily. Well, they would, but it wouldn't look that good. Hard to describe; I never photographed the bad results.

I will stress again, that when sliced very thin (half the pencil width that Franklin describes) and with a bit of sauce it's very tasty, very beefy and a nice pop to the bark. It's just dry on its own.

 

[Bob Bass]

Peter,
Do you have a picture of the sliced brisket ? Also one showing the whole brisket prior to cooking ?
Reason... Even though you are slicing it thin, I wonder about the direction, ie against the grain.
Dave's is sliced against the grain.

 

[PeterD]

Nope, no pics, but definitely sliced against the grain. I slice off a teeny wedge on one corner so the flat will be cut 90° to the grain. Plus the grain was clearly visible through the bark.

 

[Bob Bass]

Hi Peter,

Excellent.
Sorry, just had to ask. Have seen it with incorrect slicing which produced (as expected) no separation of fibers, perceived dryness, etc (at a comp, no less !)

Bob

 

[PeterD]

I actually watched them carve a portion for me with the grain at Blacks in Lockhart last year. I was shocked -- and it was still some of the tastiest brisket I've ever eaten! Smitty's was just 'meh', but Kreuz's was perfection. And I was stuffed like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python and couldn't eat it all. Then when I came home, I went back to Hill Country on West 26th Street and ate as well if not better than in TX. This is the quality level I'm trying to achieve. Not competition grade, but as good as those guys' products.

 

[Dave Russell]

You don't need foil to cook a moist jiggly brisket. The key is adequate marbling and fat cap, you can't over trim. After that you have to cook it til the fat and collagens render just enough. 250-300* will work. It's done when it probes tender. Remove and allow it to vent to stop the cooking process. Water/no water doesn't matter too much, although more moisture will protect that bark. You have to rest it at least 3 hours too. You need a gradual cool down in temp. A lot of good stuff happens during that rest. I also think you waited too long to wrap in paper. I typically wrap after 4-5 hours. Bark WILL still develop while it's the paper, unless you spritz too much or put liquids on it. But then again I only use one layer of paper, 2 or more layers and the bark could soften up too much and you end up with the foiling effect. Franklin doesn't wrap towards the end but he has lots of moisture in his pits (tons of other briskets) and he also spritzes with watered down Worcestershire sauce, so it obviously works for him. You got this!

I concur on every point.

Peter, one other thing I was thinking when going back and reading this thread was that IMHO it's not a good idea to stoke the pit so high with water in the pan. Boiling the pan makes for an "off" smoke flavor, with whatever is around the outside of the grate being exposed to very high temps. I think you need to ditch the water so you can cook in the mediocre zone of 250-300 that works so well with butcher paper....which I'm sure you're gonna want to ultimately use after rereading all of your posts. Good luck with your next one.

 

[Darren C.]

This a great thread! Peter, although, I'm way behind you, I feel like I'm heading down the exact same path as you have been traveling. My experiences have been very similar. I think I've cooked 3 briskets. Something that I've wondered myself is if I'm taking 'like buttah' too literally. On one of my cooks, I kept probing for tenderness, finally after around 210, I removed it from the smoker. It was dry. I crossed my mind that I was just not good at determining what probe tenderness feels like. On my next brisket, I thought I might start probing every hour or so, just to see if I could develop a 'feel' for tenderness. BTW, I have an 18", too.

I'm following your thread with great interest. You are doing a great job of articulating your experiences. I'm anxious to see how this turns out.

 

[John Segura]

John,
So you don't need foil but you do use paper? Or have you been successful cooking brisket without any wrapping at all? That would be pretty cool. And you say, you can't over trim? Or did you mean you shouldn't over trim? My guess would be that if you don't foil or wrap, over-trimming fat makes the brisket dry. But that's just my guess. I haven't really tried.

Donna

For me there is a big difference between foil and paper. Foil steams the meat even w/out adding any liquids to it. The bark comes out soft and mushy too. It also cooks the brisket much faster. Nothing wrong with that. You can counter the soft bark by unwrapping the brisket and putting it back on the cooker for about 30-45min. or so to firm up the bark. Paper allows the brisket to breath a little and produces a much nicer bark. I haven't noticed any reduction in cooking time with paper.

Yes, I meant don't over trim the brisket, you need some fat left. I've cooked a bunch of briskets w/out wrapping in foil or paper with good results. A lot of these briskets were done in my bubba keg (steel kamado) cooker. This cooker holds moisture quite well and tends to cook things faster naturally. On my 22 WSM though I typically wrap in paper or foil, depending on time. In the WSM I've done water/no water in the pan. In the dryer cooler months I like using the water. I think water helps the brisket cook a little faster as the hot moist air penetrates the meat better.

Peter, I highly suspect the biggest difference in the great brisket you are getting at Q joints and yours is that they are using a higher grade of meat. That goes a LONG way in making a nice moist brisket. A long hold/rest time is very important too. One of the best briskets I ever cooked was held 9 hours! I didn't plan it this way, it just finished much faster than expected.. and it was a nice prime brisket too. Find the Anthony Bourdain episode when he goes to Franklins. That brisket looks like jello on the cutting board. He makes a comment like "oh they are relaxed all right!" --long rest.

IMO adding liquids in foil is ok for comps if you are trying to add more flavor to the meat, but really I think it comes out kinda like a pot roast. Tx style brisket is definitely not like that. Adding liquids will give you a "wet" brisket but true moist brisket comes from cooking a half decent marbled brisket just long enough to allow the fat and collagen to break down. And yes, the flat is just leaner too, nothing like the point or where the point meets the flat.

 

[PeterD]

I concur on every point.

Peter, one other thing I was thinking when going back and reading this thread was that IMHO it's not a good idea to stoke the pit so high with water in the pan. Boiling the pan makes for an "off" smoke flavor, with whatever is around the outside of the grate being exposed to very high temps. I think you need to ditch the water so you can cook in the mediocre zone of 250-300 that works so well with butcher paper....which I'm sure you're gonna want to ultimately use after rereading all of your posts. Good luck with your next one.

Thanks....I think I'll need it. I'm definitely no noob to brisketry, but I'd like to get to the point where my briskets are as awesome as my ribs and pulled pr0k. I've rarely had better from either of those meats anywhere else. The water in the pan while using the Stoker was a one-off experiment this past time; I was willing to try anything to introduce moisture into the cooking chamber for 12+ hours. I've never run with a full water pan while using the Stoker before, nor will I again. And in fact, if (as some here are claiming), I can do a brisket in 6-8 hours at 250°, I don't even see the need for the Stoker. I only use that when I need to get some sleep. If I'm foiling/papering four or five hours into a cook, that defeats the reason for the blower overnight--it would just make more sense to wake up and get it going at 7am for a 6pm supper (including the 2 hour rest in the cooler).

 

[PeterD]

For me there is a big difference between foil and paper. Foil steams the meat even w/out adding any liquids to it. The bark comes out soft and mushy too. It also cooks the brisket much faster. Nothing wrong with that. You can counter the soft bark by unwrapping the brisket and putting it back on the cooker for about 30-45min. or so to firm up the bark. Paper allows the brisket to breath a little and produces a much nicer bark. I haven't noticed any reduction in cooking time with paper.

I have done hot/fast with foil and while occasionally juicy, even with an extra half hour in at 275-300°, the bark was never truly that thick, black thing of beauty that 14-16 hours nekkid yields, and which both my wife and I adore. This was my first time with paper (incidentally, all I could find was 24" paper, not 36", so wrapping was a pain in the---um----brisket).

Peter, I highly suspect the biggest difference in the great brisket you are getting at Q joints and yours is that they are using a higher grade of meat.

I really wonder. I know the one place I go to the most (Hill Country BBQ Market in NYC) uses choice or Angus Choice. They told me last year that if they went Waygu or prime they couldn't sell it for less than $40/lb (it's about $25/lb now for moist).

That goes a LONG way in making a nice moist brisket. A long hold/rest time is very important too. One of the best briskets I ever cooked was held 9 hours! I didn't plan it this way, it just finished much faster than expected.. and it was a nice prime brisket too. Find the Anthony Bourdain episode when he goes to Franklins. That brisket looks like jello on the cutting board. He makes a comment like "oh they are relaxed all right!" --long rest.

I have to ask a question here. When they hold for that long in NYC it's never wrapped, and held in a heated faux-pit, made to look like the real TX cooking pits (counterweighted lid, etc). But the key is they don't wrap to hold for service. When I finish cooking I let it rest exposed for about 20-30 minutes to stop the cooking process, but then I wrap tightly in foil and store in a cooler packed with towels for a couple of hours. If I were to put it in the oven at, say, 170°, would it lose moisture if I put it in on a tray, uncovered? I'd always figured an oven is the easiest way to sap moisture out of meat.

IMO adding liquids in foil is ok for comps if you are trying to add more flavor to the meat, but really I think it comes out kinda like a pot roast. Tx style brisket is definitely not like that. Adding liquids will give you a "wet" brisket but true moist brisket comes from cooking a half decent marbled brisket just long enough to allow the fat and collagen to break down. And yes, the flat is just leaner too, nothing like the point or where the point meets the flat.

John, this is the key point here for me. As I've said earlier, I'm not trying to make comp-quality Q here. I'm trying to make Franklin-quality Q (or Hill Country Q, etc). Barbecue that people would cross ten counties to eat. Many posters upthread have urged me to go with foil and either beef broth or some other ingredient, but my gut is telling me that's way potroast (and madness) lies. At $60 a try, I obviously can't experiment with this on a weekly basis; my next brisket won't be until Labour Day, I suspect--so this is why I'm trying to work out the kinks here on paper (well, on electrons, really), so that when I fire up the old 18 inch WSM I'm not in a mad panic once the stall is reached.

 

[Dave Russell]

Thanks....I think I'll need it. I'm definitely no noob to brisketry, but I'd like to get to the point where my briskets are as awesome as my ribs and pulled pr0k. I've rarely had better from either of those meats anywhere else. The water in the pan while using the Stoker was a one-off experiment this past time; I was willing to try anything to introduce moisture into the cooking chamber for 12+ hours. I've never run with a full water pan while using the Stoker before, nor will I again. And in fact, if (as some here are claiming), I can do a brisket in 6-8 hours at 250°, I don't even see the need for the Stoker. I only use that when I need to get some sleep. If I'm foiling/papering four or five hours into a cook, that defeats the reason for the blower overnight--it would just make more sense to wake up and get it going at 7am for a 6pm supper (including the 2 hour rest in the cooler).

Brisket cooked at 250 in 6-8 hrs? That's not gonna happen.

Personally, I'd go ahead and use the ATC to get 275*-ish and keep things going, but not let the cooker get over 300 and start to singe the paper. I'd also move your cook start earlier by at least an hour so you can hold it a little longer.

 

[Donna Fong]

For me there is a big difference between foil and paper. Foil steams the meat even w/out adding any liquids to it. The bark comes out soft and mushy too. It also cooks the brisket much faster. Nothing wrong with that. You can counter the soft bark by unwrapping the brisket and putting it back on the cooker for about 30-45min. or so to firm up the bark. Paper allows the brisket to breath a little and produces a much nicer bark. I haven't noticed any reduction in cooking time with paper.

Yes, I meant don't over trim the brisket, you need some fat left. I've cooked a bunch of briskets w/out wrapping in foil or paper with good results. A lot of these briskets were done in my bubba keg (steel kamado) cooker. This cooker holds moisture quite well and tends to cook things faster naturally. On my 22 WSM though I typically wrap in paper or foil, depending on time. In the WSM I've done water/no water in the pan. In the dryer cooler months I like using the water. I think water helps the brisket cook a little faster as the hot moist air penetrates the meat better.

Peter, I highly suspect the biggest difference in the great brisket you are getting at Q joints and yours is that they are using a higher grade of meat. That goes a LONG way in making a nice moist brisket. A long hold/rest time is very important too. One of the best briskets I ever cooked was held 9 hours! I didn't plan it this way, it just finished much faster than expected.. and it was a nice prime brisket too. Find the Anthony Bourdain episode when he goes to Franklins. That brisket looks like jello on the cutting board. He makes a comment like "oh they are relaxed all right!" --long rest.

IMO adding liquids in foil is ok for comps if you are trying to add more flavor to the meat, but really I think it comes out kinda like a pot roast. Tx style brisket is definitely not like that. Adding liquids will give you a "wet" brisket but true moist brisket comes from cooking a half decent marbled brisket just long enough to allow the fat and collagen to break down. And yes, the flat is just leaner too, nothing like the point or where the point meets the flat.

Thank you John for the detailed explanation. That helps. I agree with every word. There certainly is a difference between foil and paper and there are merits to not adding any liquid. I will make one note. Franklin's brisket is great. It is moist and tender and flavorful. No doubt. But it is cooked longer than is normally done at comps. It is just a different style.

I am starting to suspect that maybe Peter has a very high expectation for brisket. Maybe it is time to move on to something else other than RD. There are tons of good options and nothing in BBQ is more important than the quality of the meat you start with (other than the skill of the cook). Maybe it is time to spend some money!

 

[PeterD]

Brisket cooked at 250 in 6-8 hrs? That's not gonna happen.

This seems to go against what was said a bit earlier: 4 to 6 hours from start will get it into the stall (which has been my experience in the past), and then another 2 hours or thereabouts in foil. I have no idea what the time would be using butcher paper instead of foil, however. What kind of timing would you suggest? This is probably one of the most important parts of the equation right here.

Personally, I'd go ahead and use the ATC to get 275*-ish and keep things going, but not let the cooker get over 300 and start to singe the paper. I'd also move your cook start earlier by at least an hour so you can hold it a little longer.

275? Really? Interesting! I have usually cooked 225 to 250 (and a couple of times, 325 when trying HH). Hmmmm. As for starting earlier, I foresee a bit of a problem. When I do a brisket it's for a gathering of friends, and if I'm going to be awake and alert when the party's happening, there's no way I can be up before 7am. If I am, I'm dead to the world from about 5pm until about 8 or 9. This is the main reason I like doing a long, slow cook overnight at lower temperatures. I can put it on at midnight, babysit it for an hour or so to make sure everything's nice and stable, then get 6 hours of sleep.

But by all accounts here, would I be correct in saying I just can't put 6-8 hours of smoke on a brisket and expect a moist, tender and juicy brisket to come out the other side. Might this have been my downfall in briskets past? That I would have needed to act within a few hours of starting?

 

[PeterD]

Thank you John for the detailed explanation. That helps. I agree with every word. There certainly is a difference between foil and paper and there are merits to not adding any liquid. I will make one note. Franklin's brisket is great. It is moist and tender and flavorful. No doubt. But it is cooked longer than is normally done at comps. It is just a different style.

Time is one thing I generally have in abundance and if I can get perfect results in 18 hours (which I've heard him talk about on his videos), I'd actually be really good with that. But he must be using monstrous cuts at 200° if he's letting them cook for that long. At 225-240, even with a 12 or 13 pounder, it's at 195 in 14 or 15 hours, tops, if not wrapped in any way.

I am starting to suspect that maybe Peter has a very high expectation for brisket. Maybe it is time to move on to something else other than RD. There are tons of good options and nothing in BBQ is more important than the quality of the meat you start with (other than the skill of the cook). Maybe it is time to spend some money!

Money is tight. Very tight. $60 for a 14 pounder (untrimmed) was not pleasant. I cannot justify $100 or more for a SRF brisket, especially when I'm going to eat only about 12 to 16 ounces of it and my wife maybe 6 ounces, if that. For a meal, that works out to more per pound than the finest dry aged prime NY Strip steaks at NYC prices. We're giving this away to our friends at gatherings, and yes, I want to be a good host and all, but $400-500 a year I think may be a little much in that respect. Especially since what I've served in the past (dry/etc) was praised to the rafters and devoured not unlike a cloud of carnivorous locusts had descended upon the final product. If there's any way I can take the same cut and just cook it better, I'm all ears. Maybe if I'm doing a Very Special Brisket cook for some reason or another I'd buy SRF, but for a gathering of my wife's friends, or for just the two of us with the rest frozen in FoodSaver bags as leftovers for lunch, that hardly seems like money well spent.

 

[Bob Correll]

Haven't read all the posts, but has anyone suggested a jello injection? perhaps apple.

I've been finding Prime packer briskets at Costco for under 4 bucks a pound, and that's less than their Choice grade price.
There is a huge amount of fat trim loss, but they have turned out very good, if not jiggly.
(the suet is a bonus for the birds)

I like to start low, 225 to 250 for a few hours for smoke (foiled pan, no water) then kick it up to 300 to 325.
Don't recall ever foiling, but the last one I covered with parchment paper in a foil pan.
It turned out great, but not sure how much the paper helped.

One method I've tried, inspired by member Noe, is nothing between the top rack with the brisket and the coals below.
Smells like a giant steak cooking, and it turned out super good.

 

[PeterD]

I only wish I could get briskets at Costco. There are precious few places to get a packer cut in northern NJ at a reasonable price. I called my local butcher yesterday. If he gets one in for me (i.e. I can't choose the brisket I want to buy and cook) it's $7.49 a pound for "whatever they send me." Yeah. No.

 

[John Segura]

Unfortunately cooking a no-foil, TX style brisket is a labor of love, there is just no away around it. Getting up @4am to tend the brisket or waking at 6am to start the fire.. something gotta give! I say this because WSMs are much more efficient compared to stick burners, and IMO something needs to happen around 4-5 hour mark. Either a 2nd spritz around this time or wrapping it in paper. This is because cooking at 250*+ the bark is beginning to crust over around the edges and you got to introduce some moisture or wrap it up, my preference would be wrapping.

Actually Franklins briskets are kinda small from what I've seen on TV.. (I wasn't paying enough attention in person!) See here:
http://austin.eater.com/archives/2014/07/08/franklin-barbecue-new-smokehouse-tour.php

I believe his briskets take so long is because those huge offset cookers he uses aren't very efficient and he has tons of briskets absorbing all that heat.

 

[John Segura]

I really wonder. I know the one place I go to the most (Hill Country BBQ Market in NYC) uses choice or Angus Choice. They told me last year that if they went Waygu or prime they couldn't sell it for less than $40/lb (it's about $25/lb now for moist).

I have to ask a question here. When they hold for that long in NYC it's never wrapped, and held in a heated faux-pit, made to look like the real TX cooking pits (counterweighted lid, etc). But the key is they don't wrap to hold for service. When I finish cooking I let it rest exposed for about 20-30 minutes to stop the cooking process, but then I wrap tightly in foil and store in a cooler packed with towels for a couple of hours. If I were to put it in the oven at, say, 170°, would it lose moisture if I put it in on a tray, uncovered? I'd always figured an oven is the easiest way to sap moisture out of meat.

John, this is the key point here for me. As I've said earlier, I'm not trying to make comp-quality Q here. I'm trying to make Franklin-quality Q (or Hill Country Q, etc). Barbecue that people would cross ten counties to eat. Many posters upthread have urged me to go with foil and either beef broth or some other ingredient, but my gut is telling me that's way potroast (and madness) lies. At $60 a try, I obviously can't experiment with this on a weekly basis; my next brisket won't be until Labour Day, I suspect--so this is why I'm trying to work out the kinks here on paper (well, on electrons, really), so that when I fire up the old 18 inch WSM I'm not in a mad panic once the stall is reached.

Ouch! Most places around Austin including Franklins brisket is going for around $16-17/lb. I've heard many speculate that Franklin doesn't make much money off of brisket, he makes it off other meats and sides.

Honestly there is no telling what is going behind the scenes. I would think brisket sitting in a warm oven/pit uncovered would lose moisture after a couple hours. Maybe they aren't holding in that faux pit very long or maybe they are spritzing the briskets to help keep some moisture on them.

I hear ya, I much prefer a traditional brisket compared to a comp. one bite flavor explosion. In my dozen or so comps here in TX, it seems I can't turn in a traditional brisket and expect to place high.. consistently anyway. I gotta follow suit like many around here, use foil/foil pan and save those juices to Dr. up and baste my slices in. Turn in a flavorful "wet" brisket and hope for the best.

 

[Dave Russell]

Peter, I get the needing rest before a party bit, and timing cooks can sometimes be a pain. I don't cook too many briskets, so I'll defer to some of the others that also take better notes. If I recall though, I think my last one was done in around nine or ten hours at my preferred medium and mediocre cooking temps. The paper slows evaporation, but it sure doesn't speed cooking up like foil does.

And regarding cooking slow, I don't know what the guys in Texas do, but from my own experience and what I've read, briskets aren't best suited to the 225-250 water in the pan approach that works so well for pork butts. If you want a better smoke ring, sure, start slow, but I like to get that temp up to target and stay on schedule, cooking rather than warming and drying the meat. Hope that helps.