THoey
TVWBB Super Fan
Sorry, but that is exactly opposite of everything I ever heard about how to choose a brisket. I always heard to pick those that are all bendy... Might be wrong, but just going by what I have read here and on other forums...
Sorry, but that is exactly opposite of everything I ever heard about how to choose a brisket. I always heard to pick those that are all bendy... Might be wrong, but just going by what I have read here and on other forums...
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
I've heard that as well, although I've heard that a fattier cold piece of meat is stiffer than a cold leaner one. Maybe that applies more to pork butts, though. ??
Donna Fong
TVWBB Super Fan
Butcher paper is great! I've only tried a few times. I think it works too. Well, it is hard to say how the shops are not wrapping and getting good product. Maybe they don't trim at all and they are unlikely to be using WSMs. I'd love to taste a moist brisket out of a small smoker cooked in dry California without any kind of wrapping. They are using large smokers and cooking lots of meat all at once, which is probably increasing the wet bulb temp, which I can't do on my WSM.
I totally think you are on the right path. For me, if I poke a hole in my foil and the au jus leaks out, and I don't catch it in time, my brisket category is over. I think the contact of the developing au jus with the brisket is a key component. And I think taking too long to cook a brisket is more bad than good. At some point, you're just drying it out. I cook with RD choice all of the time and think you can achieve a great product. It is just hard to do.
I totally think you are on the right path. For me, if I poke a hole in my foil and the au jus leaks out, and I don't catch it in time, my brisket category is over. I think the contact of the developing au jus with the brisket is a key component. And I think taking too long to cook a brisket is more bad than good. At some point, you're just drying it out. I cook with RD choice all of the time and think you can achieve a great product. It is just hard to do.
Once again, that will depend on the grade. With a CAB, I was told there is an age limit for CAB so the size therefore won't determine age. A non-CAB may be different. May also be so much BS, but that is what I was told by the wholesale company I buy from.
Donna Fong
TVWBB Super Fan
I wouldn't go as far as to say it is wrong. I've head floppy is good. But there are other factors that I'd rank as more important than the floppiness of a brisket. If I had the best of all worlds, I would choose a big brisket, that is thick all of the way through. Has great marbling and heritage. Grain finish. Treated nicely. Not much liquid in the bag. Nice thick fat cap without any bad cuts. The color would be a deep red, not pink. Somewhere down the line, floppiness would play into it but usually, when I'm standing in RD, looking at all of the briskets, the biggest, thickest, most marbled one is my choice. If it were very floppy, I would be careful to note if the fat cap was thick or not. If it were very thin, I would avoid it. If it were thick and floppy, super!
Donna Fong
TVWBB Super Fan
All I know is that I once cooked a 27lb (I think) brisket that Harry found in RD and I swear to you, it was absolutely delicious. I couldn't believe it. I thought it would be bad but it floored me. Must have been a happy cow.
PeterD
TVWBB Super Fan
I won't be getting a Snake River Farms Waygu brisket any time soon, so my only two choices here in north Jersey are Restaurant Depot's "Angus Choice" and Restaurant Depot's regular Choice. I find that the thin ends of the flat are always very thin--I never see the thick flats on anything in their display case. Also, very, very few briskets I've cooked are in great shape all around. Fat caps are rarely uniform, most have packing house cuts and slices all over and others don't have a visible channel of hard fat deckle that's reachable pre-cook. Those ones are always a bear to cook.
So, there's been a lot of advice thrown around here that I'd like to distill into a coherent process for next time. I think my trimming and prep are probably fine, I rarely have temperature issues on my 18" WSM, I do own a Stoker for longer cooks, and the meat goes on cold with a simple S&P rub with a few extras in for good measure. I don't mop or spritz, and I'm after juicy and jiggly, but also with a thick bark. I think the problems start creeping in from the onset of the stall until the decision to pull is made.
So far the consensus is to cook at 250°, foil wrap or put it in a covered foil pan with some juice (or ???) after about 4 hours in smoke, or until it hits the stall, then go for roughly a couple more hours, checking for tender when the internal hits 195-ish. Anything else I'm missing here? Any way to get good results with butcher paper in the 18" WSM?
So, there's been a lot of advice thrown around here that I'd like to distill into a coherent process for next time. I think my trimming and prep are probably fine, I rarely have temperature issues on my 18" WSM, I do own a Stoker for longer cooks, and the meat goes on cold with a simple S&P rub with a few extras in for good measure. I don't mop or spritz, and I'm after juicy and jiggly, but also with a thick bark. I think the problems start creeping in from the onset of the stall until the decision to pull is made.
So far the consensus is to cook at 250°, foil wrap or put it in a covered foil pan with some juice (or ???) after about 4 hours in smoke, or until it hits the stall, then go for roughly a couple more hours, checking for tender when the internal hits 195-ish. Anything else I'm missing here? Any way to get good results with butcher paper in the 18" WSM?
Dustin Dorsey
TVWBB Hall of Fame
All we can get is selects or the same "Angus Choice" brand from Sam's where I'm at. Occasionally Walmart will have some choice. But getting better than that is out of the question and I don't quite feel like I could do justice to a prime or waygu or something. Usually I've got a selection of about 5 or 6 choice briskets none of which look all that great. Add to that an almost crippling male sense of shyness when it comes to asking anyone in a store about anything and you can see the boat I'm in. Maybe I can make an exception for the butcher.
Donna Fong
TVWBB Super Fan
I've cooked with butcher paper. It turned out fine but the liquid doesn't hold the same, which I think is okay. You have to keep the fat up when you wrap, because I found the fat sticks to the paper otherwise. I've cooked at higher than 250, even as high as 300+ and it has been good. The finishing temp will vary, like others say, so you have to depend on feel more than temp.
Since the briskets sound like they are really different in NJ than CA, there's no telling what finishing temp is "normal". The choice angus briskets sold in SoCal are est. number 19336 which is out of Omaha and I think they are good briskets. Do you know the establishment numbers for your NJ briskets?
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Dustin Dorsey
TVWBB Hall of Fame
When is the Q&A happening? I haven't seen that the forum has been open for questions yet. I'm excited!
PeterD
TVWBB Super Fan
Yes, that happened to me last weekend after I unwrapped in preparation for the post-cook cooldown. On the other hand, it made for a tasty snack for Ye Olde Pitmaster <G>.
How would would determine this and how to cross-reference a number to see where it originates? I can definitely state that finding a packer in NJ is virtually impossible if you don't have a Restaurant Depot membership or aren't prepared to pay a king's ransom for a special order. The only retailer I found was Wharton meats in northwest NJ, and their prices were between RD and a local butcher. Two years ago, my local guy wanted $6.59/lb for a full packer in cryo (obviously 'whatever they send me', so nothing I could choose myself). After I got the RD membership I was getting them for $2.99/lb there. They're now up to $4.19/lb at RD as of last Thursday. I also note that fat caps are usually uneven and thin and the points are rarely over 3/4" to 1" at the furthest end. I've never gotten a brisket that wasn't ripped or scored in some way on the bottom from the packing house, either. Obviously these are not good comp-grade cuts, but rather intended for restaurants.
Donna Fong
TVWBB Super Fan
That's really too bad. I'm sorry to hear it. So I buy briskets at RD and on each brisket is an establishment number. Actually, on every package of meat you buy at a grocery store, you will find a number, unless it has the store's brand or they repackage it (which some do). If you google that number and use the terms establishment number and FSIS, you should get the location of the processing plant. I thought knowing the processing plant might give you a sense if the brisket is the same quality or not. It is not unimaginable that a Nebraska brisket might be shipped as far away as SoCal AND NJ.
John Segura
TVWBB Member
You don't need foil to cook a moist jiggly brisket. The key is adequate marbling and fat cap, you can't over trim. After that you have to cook it til the fat and collagens render just enough. 250-300* will work. It's done when it probes tender. Remove and allow it to vent to stop the cooking process. Water/no water doesn't matter too much, although more moisture will protect that bark. You have to rest it at least 3 hours too. You need a gradual cool down in temp. A lot of good stuff happens during that rest. I also think you waited too long to wrap in paper. I typically wrap after 4-5 hours. Bark WILL still develop while it's the paper, unless you spritz too much or put liquids on it. But then again I only use one layer of paper, 2 or more layers and the bark could soften up too much and you end up with the foiling effect. Franklin doesn't wrap towards the end but he has lots of moisture in his pits (tons of other briskets) and he also spritzes with watered down Worcestershire sauce, so it obviously works for him. You got this!
Donna Fong
TVWBB Super Fan
John,
So you don't need foil but you do use paper? Or have you been successful cooking brisket without any wrapping at all? That would be pretty cool. And you say, you can't over trim? Or did you mean you shouldn't over trim? My guess would be that if you don't foil or wrap, over-trimming fat makes the brisket dry. But that's just my guess. I haven't really tried.
Donna
PeterD
TVWBB Super Fan
John, the issue is that it never got probe tender at any point in the cook, except at the very innermost part of the point. It hit the right temps, could pull apart with a light tug but the meat was just far too dry. Not overcooked and probably not undercooked either....it just had very little moisture left at the end. As I mentioned upthread, this is a very regular occurrence for my briskets. The prep and startup goes perfectly, the stall happens when it should but then BadThings™ happen between the onset of the stall and the decision to terminate the cook, resulting in a dry brisket. I would very much like to achieve the desired results without a crutch (foil or butcher paper), but I've yet to learn the secret of how to make that happen. Maybe it's just too dry inside the cooking chamber, but who knows. I do know the joints that turn out the Q I like to eat never foil or wrap, just 18+ hours at low temp, pull and hold at 175 until service starts. According to Hill Country's managers and pitmaster, their briskets are mostly straight choice or Angus choice if the price is good, seasoned only with S/P and a dash of cayenne. They must bend the laws of physics or something <grin>.
I guess I'll have to start using foil/foiled pan to do this, but I was asking if other 18" WSM users would chime in with their successful experiences and proceses.
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Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
Peter, I honestly think you're just not cooking enough, both in time and temp. I'm a big fan of water in the pan. I use it all the time for ribs. However, for brisket, I'm much in favor of cooking at 275+ and wrapping at some point in the cook. Since your issues are tenderness and dryness, I'd suggest trying foil once the brisket gets some bark. Like everyone says, cook it till it's feels like warm butter when probed in the thickest part of the flat. Open it up a while to lose it's steam, wrap back up and hold hot for a couple of hours, and then slice and enjoy.
Bob Bass
TVWBB Gold Member
A pitmaster best tools... A Thermapen and blue painters tape ( to cover the Thermapen's temperature display !)
The moisture you speak of has absolutely nothing to do with water. It's all about collagen, denaturing of the collagen into gelatin, AND gelatin retention.
But, as Donna and others have noted, you need some moisture (in the form of steam) to help denature process when cooking in foil. This 'moisture'
is kinda neat since it gives you the opportunity to add additional flavor and spice to your meat.
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PeterD
TVWBB Super Fan
Dave, if this had been one or two cooks I'd agree; but in this case it's about 8 in 10 that turn out dry. My usual process for low and slow is to let it go unmolested until my Stoker meat probe is in the upper 180s, which is where I set my alarm. Then, usually about a half hour later, I start to probe with my Thermapen.
When it's dry, the first few times I just figured it needed more time. So I left it on the next couple of smokes, checking for tender about every 20-30 minutes. It never happened. If I leave it on hoping to get tender, the flat will be 210-215 and the point will be 198-200 and good; the flat will be inedible unless sliced with a deli slicer and covered with sauce. I hadn't used water with the Stoker until this cook, hoping the evaporating water would add moisture. It didn't. I had excellent temperature control, too, and my temp probe from the Stoker was within 3 or 4 degrees of my recently-recalibrated Thermapen.
Note that I'm *not* judging 'done' by temp, just using it as a reference. There was no moisture whatsoever on the top side of the meat at any stage in the cook. Not even after butcher papering for 4 hours, after 9 hours in smoke. I've only experienced "warm butter" maybe 10 to 20% of the time, and that's in the thickest part of the point/flat--and when that's "like butter," the flat is more often than not, but not always, dry or both dry and crumbly (i.e. ovedone flat, nice point and point-over-flat).
As I have come to realize earlier in this thread, obviously I can't do briskets at home the way restaurant pitmasters do at Hill Country or Delaney's in NYC--I'd love to know why, but that's a different matter, and yes, I will start going to the Texas Crutch. My real goal is to learn the science of brisket cooking without that step, though. It's like it's a mission for me now or something
My next cook, I will go for about 12-13# trimmed, 250° until mahogany and a nice bark formed, and it's in the stall, then foil up with some beef broth and let it go for about 2 hours and see what happens, probing through the foil. Do I have the right of it or should I do something else?
And to do it without foil, but get perfect results....well, that's my new Holy Grail.
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