Still can't get my brisket jiggly

[PeterD]

Hi all,
Well, another holiday weekend, another brisket that turned out less than what I'd expected. I will detail the cook in the following parargraphs, but the short version is that the meat passed the pull test, but there was just no real moisture. It was tasty, every scrap was inhaled by my guests and I was complimented out the ying-yang but the reality is that I just cannot get that juicy-jiggly result that I see on TV and in the big NYC Q joints. This happens every cook, so it's definitely something on this end.

Here are the details:
MEAT: 14.8 pound packer, untrimmed, 13.0 pounds trimmed. Angus from Restaurant Depot.
RUB: S&P, a dash of cayenne, some ancho, and some espresso ground coffee.
PREP: Fat cap was pretty even and about 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the cryo. A good amount of the thick fat between point & flat removed. NO mustard slather nor oil applied before the rub was applied, and the rub was not too much, not too little. The meat sat in the fridge (with the rub applied) for about 3 hours before going on the pit. Fat cap was scored and seasoned with rub. Meat went on the pit at 45°F.
FUEL: Comp-K; minion start. No temp control issues--caught it on the way up with no problem.
PIT: 18" WSM (2008 vintage)
GRATE TEMPS: 225°, stoker controlled, for 9 hours. When it became obvious that I would miss my party deadline, I amped it up to 275 first, then 325
WATER PAN: Full of hot water.
WRAPPING: 9 hours naked, then butcher paper for 4.5 hours. NOTE: All I was able to find was a 24" roll of peach unwaxed paper, so I put two side by side and folded over once.
MEAT TEMP: Thermapen went in around 198 or so with some resistance into the point, and the flat was in the 205 range about 3" from the end.
RESTING: Took the brisket off and let it rest on the table for about 25 minutes. Temps were still up there, above 170, even after that rest, but I had to foil/cooler it to take it to the party; by then I was very late.

At NO point toward the end (I checked 5 times over the course of about 90 minutes as it approached my target temp) was there any sort of sheen of moisture on or in the meat. There was only a faint jiggle on the point and none anywhere on the flat. When I sliced into pencil-thick slices the meat passed the pull test once I got past the thinnest end of the flat, but the usual complaint is an overly dry flat with an OK point. The deckle fat hadn't fully rendered, but was still OK. The "burnt-end portion" of the point was perfect (as usual). I didn't actually cube it to make burnt ends, but I'm saying this just for reference.

So. There's obviously something critical I'm missing in my process that's causing every brisket I cook to dry out. If I go too long I get a crumbly mess like I did last time -- $60 worth of inedible cowparts. I try to find probe-like-buttah tender, but it almost *never* happens. This is the 4th brisket I've done this year and each one had serious problems. My wife like it (or says she does) but isn't thrilled at paying $60 for a cut that never ever tastes as good as we get in restaurants. I've read each brisket thread half a hundred times, and on paper, everything I'm doing looks perfect. Yet....fails. Since brisket is my favourite food in the world, I really want to turn this around and make Lockhart-good briskets on my WSM. I think of the 20+ I've done, only 2 or 3 have been perfect. Low and slow or hot and fast, there's always a fail at the end!

 

[Bob Bass]

Peter,
If you have been using paper each time, would you be willing to try foil as an experiment ?
If so, pick a brisket that appears to be of an equal thickness. Trim the fat cap so that it's not more than 1/4" thick.
Trim the hard fat just as you have been doing. No need to score the fat cap.
Run at 250. Foil when in the stall AND the brisket's bark is fully set. When foiling, place 1/4-1/3 cup of some brazing liquid in the double foiled pouch.
Wrap that pouch so that there is no way for steam to escape and no absolutely no airspace between the brisket and the foil... Tight !
You will need to stay on top of the process during this stage as it will cook much faster than one would believe possible.
When you reach the 195 deg internal temp area, start checking for tenderness. Poke thru the foil top, not the side nor the bottom.
Once you reach the tenderness stage, pull.
You want to denature the collagen into gelatin, but not to the point of draining the gelatin from the brisket.
In other words, you want to retain as much of the gelatin as possible.

 

[Dustin Dorsey]

I know there are some killer joints in NYC, but you have to be beating the average joint. I've been experimenting with the probe tenderness test and it's easy to doubt yourself and think, nah that can get more tender when it's probably perfect. I'm still in the learning process myself so I shouldn't be giving advice, but we are our own toughest critics. Every time I do a cook, the guests are raving and I'm not satisfied. I'm typically worn out, my thoughts are "I should have foiled. I should have not foiled. I should have foiled sooner. I should have gotten more smoke on this thing. I took it off too fast! I left it on too long! That flat is crumbling a little in the corner, ITS RUINED!"

That's generally how my head works. Somehow my wife puts up with me!

 

[Todd Phillips]

Follow Bob's Tips and you will be a brisket,cooking,ninja in no time

 

[ChuckO]

Foil when in the stall AND the brisket's bark is fully set

So the bark determines when to foil? The stall can go on for hours, would you guess that foiling would be twords the beginning, middle or end of the stall? (assuming 250 degree cook)

An interesting approach, that I'd certainly try, normally not liking to foil

 

[Bob Bass]

Hi Chuck,

One commonly sees the comment 'the foil ruined the bark' or 'the foiling caused the bark to soften' or something like that. If the bark is fully set meaning you can not scrap it off with your fingernail, then the foiling stage will not damage the bark.

It would most certainly be in the deep stall segment if not a little later. Never near the beginning.

 

[PeterD]

Bob Bass
If you have been using paper each time, would you be willing to try foil as an experiment ?

Actually, this is my first time with paper. I usually only foiled when doing it hot-and-fast, and when I did that, I never used liquid.

Bob Bass
Run at 250. Foil when in the stall AND the brisket's bark is fully set. When foiling, place 1/4-1/3 cup of some brazing liquid in the double foiled pouch.
Wrap that pouch so that there is no way for steam to escape and no absolutely no airspace between the brisket and the foil... Tight !
You will need to stay on top of the process during this stage as it will cook much faster than one would believe possible.

I have never cooked in the zone between 240 and 325 for any appreciable length of time so I'm not really sure what to consider for timing -- this is food for a gathering of friends, so I have to be able to plan an approximate cook time and not have starving guests nor a brisket that's ready 6 hours before they get in.

Bob Bass
When you reach the 195 deg internal temp area, start checking for tenderness. Poke thru the foil top, not the side nor the bottom.
Once you reach the tenderness stage, pull. You want to denature the collagen into gelatin, but not to the point of draining the gelatin from the brisket.
In other words, you want to retain as much of the gelatin as possible.

Yes, when I see 195 that's when I've always started to be ready for 'done' to occur, but in my case it just never gets jiggly wiggly and moist. And I'm obviously afraid that if I let it go, it will just dry out even more (if that's possible) and overcook. If this was a one-time thing I'd just write it off to a bad cut off an ornery cow, but this is maybe 80% of the time, if not a bit more. I did do one hot-n-fast, foiled (but no liquid) at 325 that would have turned out perfectly if my thermometer had been in the flat and not in the point. The Stoker's meat probe read 188 when I started to check, but the Thermapen was well over 210 in the flat and it was inedible.

So based on a 250° grate temp and an average 12-14# cut, what timings should I expect to be in the right ballpark? I always put the meat on cold (~40°F); so from that until I'm ready to wrap (foil or paper, don't really care which; though I like the idea of paper a bit better), I go until I have a good bark and it's in the stall, about 160-ish or so. By experience at 225 that's usually around 5-6 hours, so at 225, probably more like 4? Then once wrapped, staying at 250, what would I expect there in terms of time?

My usual target pull time is from 1pm to 3pm on the Day Of The Great Feeding, followed by ~20 minutes open and ~2 hours foiled in the cooler. So working back from there, where should I be working?

NOTE: My reason for not using the HH method is my wife, my guests and I all prefer a thick, almost black bark--and that's probably why I'm more interested in paper wrappage than foiling, but if foil will do the job better, I'm willing to try it. My big question is how do folks have successful, tender and juicy results without any foil at all, or just paper wrapping?

Dustin Dorsey

I know there are some killer joints in NYC, but you have to be beating the average joint. I've been experimenting with the probe tenderness test and it's easy to doubt yourself and think, nah that can get more tender when it's probably perfect. I'm still in the learning process myself so I shouldn't be giving advice, but we are our own toughest critics. Every time I do a cook, the guests are raving and I'm not satisfied. I'm typically worn out, my thoughts are "I should have foiled. I should have not foiled. I should have foiled sooner. I should have gotten more smoke on this thing. I took it off too fast! I left it on too long! That flat is crumbling a little in the corner, ITS RUINED!"

That's generally how my head works. Somehow my wife puts up with me!

Dustin, that's exactly the case here. My guests (usually) inhale it and rave but I know it could be so much better, because every time I go into NYC I stop at Hill Country and what I have there is so far beyond what I put out in terms of quality that it's frightening. On the other hand, a new Q joint called Mighty Quinn's, which gets raves, opened up in Clifton NJ, about a 20 minute drive from me. I've eaten there 4 or 5 times, and every visit, whether busy or slow, the brisket is always overcooked and crumbly (although still juicy and with a spectacular smoke ring), and what bark there is is mushy. I've done a few that were a bit better than that, though not many. I still need a surefire process to get me in the ballpark every time.

 

[Bob Sample]

Once sliced brisket can dry out quickly. As Danielle Bennett Dimovski of Diva Q (our great Canadian BBQ goddess) says" air is not briskets friend ". A lot of BBQ joints will dip their brisket in au jus made from the brisket drippings before serving. I do most of my brisket HH and save the drippings from that and give the slices a brush with it before serving. It adds a lot of flavour.

 

[CLasko]

Sorry you're feeling so frustrated. I know how you feel. I think we are our own worst critics. I know my skills have gotten better and so have the products I've made, but I always seem to find something with my cooks that I'd like to have done differently or better.

My kryptonite are turkeys. I've done several and dry as can be each time! I'll get it someday.

 

[J Hoke]

This is our comp procedure. On at 250 for 4 hours, wrap in foil with whatever liquid you choose. Monitor temp and at 205 start checking tenderness. The last 2 we did went to 209 before they probed tender so forget the temp and just probe. I'd say the majority of briskets are undercooked.

 

[PeterD]

This is our comp procedure. On at 250 for 4 hours, wrap in foil with whatever liquid you choose. Monitor temp and at 205 start checking tenderness. The last 2 we did went to 209 before they probed tender so forget the temp and just probe. I'd say the majority of briskets are undercooked.

I will try this next time for sure. On average, how much time in the foil at 250 before it starts getting close to done? Four hours nekkid, then foil up for...? Again, I know about tender not temperature (or time) but I'm just trying to plan the cook out in broad strokes here, knowing every brisket is different. And yes, I never, ever slice until guests are lined up and I cut as each person stands there, plate in hand.

I've never had luck saving the au jus. When it's on the grate it just falls into the water-filled water pan. When it's in foil, invariably the foil get a pinhole or three and it all leaks out. I usually use two layers of heavy duty 18" Reynolds Wrap aluminium foil. One layer wraps the bottom and sides, the second wraps the top and goes underneath for 2 layers between meat and grate.

 

[Todd Phillips]

Don't focus on time or temp. It will drive you nuts. Just foil around the stall. Once it hits 195-200 start probing. Once the probe feels like a tooth pick threw a muffin, It's done. I've had brisket go to 216. Once you take it off, vent it for awhile so it doesn't continue cooking. Just use a foil pan on the second grate. I always add a splash of beef stock so it doesn't burn up right away

 

[J Hoke]

I will try this next time for sure. On average, how much time in the foil at 250 before it starts getting close to done?

We start at 2am and are generally in the cambro by 10-10:30 cooking briskets with untrimmed weight of 15+ lbs. But, each piece of meat is different. We cook CABs. The grade of meat also will affect time.

 

[PeterD]

So roughly 8 hours at 250? Wow....that's a lot faster than I'd figured, and with the 18" WSM, anything over about 14# just won't fit all that easily. I buy what I think they call Angus Choice from Restaurant Depot. If it's just for my wife and me (with leftovers for a week or two) then I'll go small, about 11-12#. If I'm cooking for a gathering then usually about 14# untrimmed. Maybe next time I'll try a 15 pounder. I was under the impression that once they get up that big, the animal would have been older and the muscles less tender. Any truth to that?

Don't focus on time or temp. It will drive you nuts. Just foil around the stall. Once it hits 195-200 start probing. Once the probe feels like a tooth pick threw a muffin, It's done. I've had brisket go to 216.

Todd, yes I do know to focus on "tender" and not time/temp. But the problem I'm facing is that my cooks rarely achieve 'toothpick-through-a-muffin' tender. They pass the pull test but not the bend test. I've left briskets on past 200 where they were never tender, hoping 210-215 would be the magic point, but instead they were shoe leather and crumbly when cut, a sure sign of badly overcooked. I think I'm pulling them off around the correct point now, but they're just never ever "like buttah" tender, and only the thickest part of the point-over-flat is juicy on the inside. The flat is bone dry, even when passing the pull test (i.e. a little tug and it pull apart cleanly). The moisture is just disappearing from the meat. I'm wondering if I've got too much rub (i.e. too much salt, a 50-50 mix of S&P) and it's just dessicated the meat in the refrigerator.

 

[Jeff R]

I've never had luck saving the au jus. When it's on the grate it just falls into the water-filled water pan. When it's in foil, invariably the foil get a pinhole or three and it all leaks out. I usually use two layers of heavy duty 18" Reynolds Wrap aluminium foil. One layer wraps the bottom and sides, the second wraps the top and goes underneath for 2 layers between meat and grate.

Instead if foil, you can foil cover an disposable alum pan, or if you want to wrap tight in foil, put the wrapped brisket in the pan. That way if you do puncture the foil, you won't loose all the juice.

 

[PeterD]

Instead if foil, you can foil cover an disposable alum pan, or if you want to wrap tight in foil, put the wrapped brisket in the pan. That way if you do puncture the foil, you won't loose all the juice.

Jeff, do they make foil pans that are big enough to hold a brisket but will also fit inside the WSM? My local Costcos have half and full size steam table pans, and the grocery store has large turkey-sized roasting pans, but I've never seen anything that will fit the 18" WSM.

 

[Ed M.]

Peter, here is a brisket cook I did a while back. http://tvwbb.com/showthread.php?44775-Brisket-and-a-Badger-win!

I just use a Hefty aluminum pan. The disposable ones. It is a bit too big to get the smoker cover on without reshaping it some, but it works for me. I do all my briskets medium to high heat and put in a pan at 160ish. I've had good results and only have 6 to 8 hour cooks.

A 13 lb. brisket will shrink quite a bit during the first couple hours of cooking, helping it fit in to a pan that will fit the 18.5.

Hope this helps.

 

[Todd Phillips]

So roughly 8 hours at 250? Wow....that's a lot faster than I'd figured, and with the 18" WSM, anything over about 14# just won't fit all that easily. I buy what I think they call Angus Choice from Restaurant Depot. If it's just for my wife and me (with leftovers for a week or two) then I'll go small, about 11-12#. If I'm cooking for a gathering then usually about 14# untrimmed. Maybe next time I'll try a 15 pounder. I was under the impression that once they get up that big, the animal would have been older and the muscles less tender. Any truth to that?



Todd, yes I do know to focus on "tender" and not time/temp. But the problem I'm facing is that my cooks rarely achieve 'toothpick-through-a-muffin' tender. They pass the pull test but not the bend test. I've left briskets on past 200 where they were never tender, hoping 210-215 would be the magic point, but instead they were shoe leather and crumbly when cut, a sure sign of badly overcooked. I think I'm pulling them off around the correct point now, but they're just never ever "like buttah" tender, and only the thickest part of the point-over-flat is juicy on the inside. The flat is bone dry, even when passing the pull test (i.e. a little tug and it pull apart cleanly). The moisture is just disappearing from the meat. I'm wondering if I've got too much rub (i.e. too much salt, a 50-50 mix of S&P) and it's just dessicated the meat in the refrigerator.

Maybe your briskets are old? Pick your brisket up by the end of the flat and point it straight. If it bends in half, pass on it. If it sticks out straight like a diving board, you are golden. If it's in between the two, you are still good to go.

 

[Donna Fong]

I think if the fat cap is really thick on a brisket packer, particularly if it is grain fed cow, the brisket just isn't going to bend that much.

The puncture holes in the foil that Peter is experiencing is mostly likely the problem. Without any liquid in the foil, the brisket won't come out moist. I guarantee it. So the suggestion of a foil pan is a good one. I sometimes push a large spatula underneath my brisket when I probe so I don't make a hole in the worst place possible (at the bottom). The other thing you might question is the weight of the foil. Maybe go with a heavier weight of foil that doesn't tear so easily.

 

[PeterD]

Donna, the cook that I started the thread off had no foil at all. It was a butcher paper wrap after 9 hours on the grate. I have tried doing briskets for 14-16 hours with no foil to get awesome bark and I've tried hot-and-fast with foil (but the loss of liquid was quite noticeable). None of the local Q joints foil or wrap, yet their product is constantly amazing. I will try the foil pan next time, and less time unwrapped in smoke and see if that changes anything. I must say it would be nice to get a brisket done with great bark, a thick smoke ring and passing both the pull and bend tests after only 6-8 hours. I really dislike long overnight smokes.