Shawn W got me thinking


 
G

Geo S

TVWBB Super Fan
On the brisket tips thread, Shawn W made a argument for real slow for beef, and it reminded me of a feeling I've had about brisket.
Way, way back when brisket was first being barbecued, Brisket was a tough practically worthless cut, that the German butchers in Texas figured out that long ,slow smoke cooking would tenderize it.
I'm sure these were NOT from graded beef, maybe not even the low grade we can get today.So what temp and time were these bad boys cooked to get them edible?

So while hot and fast works with our better grades, would really low and slow work better on our low grades? I have an old BBQ book that came with my first "pit" that recommended no higher temp then 212 degrees, in order to not "boil" out the available moisture.

Just wondering if "real" low and slow was necessary back then and we can "cheat" a little now with the good stuff.??
 
On my last brisket cook I used a hybrid method. 180F for the first five hours, then I jacked it to 275F for the rest of the cook. The result was excellent. I've not done that many briskets so I don't have much to compare with in regards to whether this was better or worse than hot and fast all the way. This was a prime brisket so not really the low grade you're talking about, but it's one data point to consider.
 
I've heard that select work better hot and fast, and that it's better low and slow. Keep in mind no one had thermometers. Smittys and Kruez cook them at 300 plus if they ever bothered to use a therm. I think it's more about collagen breaking down and fat rendering than it is the water left in the meat.
 
A barbecue restaurant has to do dozens of briskets at the same time. We only have to do one or two, so we can give them special love and attention. I'm not sure that there is much difference in the end result between 225 and 265. My WSM is comfortable at 245, the way I set it up. I don't fight it, so 245 it is. At that point it becomes an issue of how do you want to monitor it and finish it. For full disclosure, I use water in the pan (don't refill it), I don't wrap and I spray with apple cider vinegar about an hour before I think it's gonna be done (seems to take any bitterness out of the bark). Rest for 3-5 hours and slice just before serving.

Jeff
 
J Hasselberger said:
A barbecue restaurant has to do dozens of briskets at the same time. We only have to do one or two, so we can give them special love and attention.
Jeff
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I jokingly told Mike Emerson of Pappy's Smokehouse in St Louis that his ribs are almost as good as mine, and he said:
"Try cooking 600 slabs at one time, and getting them to all taste the same."
 
I was listening to a new Aaron Franklin interview yesterday in which he said the usual problem is that people are cooking briskets too low and slow.

This portion starts at 46:04

Interviewer: "What's the most common solution that you offer, like 9 times out of 10, you've just got to use a lower heat or something..."

Franklin: "No, actually it's a higher heat."

Interviewer: "Oh really?"

Franklin: "I betcha the one thing, the one actual problem that most people have is they think like, "Oh, low and slow," but if you cook too low then you run out of fat before the collagen breaks down, so then you just have a dry, tough piece of meat. Um, so, yeah, cook hotter."

Interviewer: "So, medium and slow. Moderate and slow."

Franklin: "Medium and faster."​

In Franklin Barbecue: A Meat-Smoking Manifesto, when discussing pit temp for cooking brisket, Franklin says on page 154, "Again, 275°F is a good starting point."
 
Chris Allingham said:
Franklin: "I betcha the one thing, the one actual problem that most people have is they think like, "Oh, low and slow," but if you cook too low then you run out of fat before the collagen breaks down, so then you just have a dry, tough piece of meat. Um, so, yeah, cook hotter."
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That would suggest the best temp would depend on the amount of fat in the meat. Hotter for lean and slower for better marbled meat.
 
So you're saying that these pro bbq champions that are cooking their high end briskets hot and fast are incorrect in their thinking ?
And to think that they have, at times, hundreds and thousands of dollars at stake when cooking their briskets to as close to perfect as they can.
 
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Chris Allingham said:
I was listening to a new Aaron Franklin interview yesterday in which he said the usual problem is that people are cooking briskets too low and slow.

This portion starts at 46:04

Interviewer: "What's the most common solution that you offer, like 9 times out of 10, you've just got to use a lower heat or something..."

Franklin: "No, actually it's a higher heat."

Interviewer: "Oh really?"

Franklin: "I betcha the one thing, the one actual problem that most people have is they think like, "Oh, low and slow," but if you cook too low then you run out of fat before the collagen breaks down, so then you just have a dry, tough piece of meat. Um, so, yeah, cook hotter."

Interviewer: "So, medium and slow. Moderate and slow."

Franklin: "Medium and faster."​

In Franklin Barbecue: A Meat-Smoking Manifesto, when discussing pit temp for cooking brisket, Franklin says on page 154, "Again, 275°F is a good starting point."
Click to expand...


I've always considered 275 - 325 HH for brisket, but that's probably using my dome thermometer. Franklin like to wrap brisket in pink butcher paper, & his ribs in foil, I'll have to read the rest and try another brisket - It's time!
 
Clint said:
I've always considered 275 - 325 HH for brisket, but that's probably using my dome thermometer. Franklin like to wrap brisket in pink butcher paper, & his ribs in foil, I'll have to read the rest and try another brisket - It's time!
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Just to qualify my comments, not right or wrong, I sort of consider HH to be north of 325ºF myself.

Another reason I still believe what Doug D taught me here that time is a factor in tenderizing is the example of grilling a pork shoulder butt or a beef blade steak. If you direct grill those steaks at 450ºF the meat doesn't get to pulled pork tender and the connective tissues are tough and chewy. The fat has not rendered as much either. At the same time I can also see too much time at too little heat in too much airflow having the effect of drying out before getting tender. Somewhere in between is the sweet spot.
 
I guess in the long run.....it depends...LOL
Thanks for the discussion, Was just curious what you all thought, me, frankly, you can keep your briskets, I'll take the ribs .:D
 
My personal belief follows your comment very closely !

There are so many more variables outside of just the amount fat and connective tissue content.
Each of those variables, and how a cook approaches those will determine the end result.
 
I think I read in Smoke and Spice that they recommend really low temps. May be because the grade of the beef. I dunno. All I know is Hot n Fast produces a great brisket every time.
 
I would also assume that a lot of the "famous" BBQ joints put a fair to large amount of effort into getting CONSISTENT sizes and fat layers in the meats that they use.
(plus, and intrinsic ability to use knowledge of their big cookers to put the right hunk-o-meat in the right spot
- Different sections of the cooker for different meats
- put the smaller / less fatty pieces in the part of the section that gets a smidge less heat, etc.
- YEARS of experience to "eyeball" a piece of meat at the start and near the finish, in order to adjust as the cook progresses)

They don't call these fellows "Pit Masters" without good reason...
 
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