GrillGrates Again...


 
Joe Anshien said:
I have been pondering this sentence. In its essence it makes sense. Does it matter how that fire is produced (coal, wood, gas)? Does flavorizer bars make grills not grills, as it prevents the fire from hitting the food, maybe more than even Grillgrates? Is a 13 bar cook box less of a grill than a 5 bar cook box? I am guessing that Broilmaster and similar grills that use ceramic briquets, or the ceramic Grill grates (pick below as it gets confusing), with holes are real grills because they let the fire through? Perhaps you are correct, that it seems like grilling on most gas grills, and or using Grillgreats on a charcoal grill is more like ovening outside.

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Joe,
My opinion is that what matters is getting heat and smoke from sizzling food droppings (and more smoke if you like it from something like a smoker box). Straight charcoal grilling, with nothing between your meat and the hot coals besides a cooking grate does that in spades. Since you can’t just have open gas burners under your food being grilled, everything else in gas grilling is an attempt to get those results while still protecting the burner tubes. A Weber Q probably comes closest to the “raw” cooking model (and maybe why these little grills cook so well). On the other extreme are grills like the Holland and Phoenix that completely shield the burners with a broad metal covering. In between methods are lava rocks (awful), ceramic briquettes or tiles, then Weber flavorizer bars, and finally GrillGrates. GrillGrates (if kept properly maintained) do have plenty of holes for heat and smoke to come through. I have used them very successfully with a smoker box underneath. So, like I said earlier I just see them as flavorizer bars brought up closer to the food you are grilling and not at all like a griddle unless you purposely flip them - as many do - for something like smash burgers or to put on a quick sear (just like many pros do with a cast iron skillet or griddle. In the final analysis it really comes down to results and how you enjoy cooking with any method. It is not at all the choice for Larry, and I respect that. Others DO enjoy them; so to each their own 😊!
 
This is quite the thinker. I went to look up the definitions of Grilling and grills. It seems that some definitions support Larry's argument some do not.

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of GRILL

to broil on a grill; also : to fry or toast on a griddle; to torment as if by broiling; to question intensely… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
grill
noun
Definition of grill (Entry 2 of 2)
1: a cooking utensil of parallel bars on which food is exposed to heat (as from charcoal or electricity)

www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com
noun
a grated utensil for broiling meat, fish, vegetables, etc., over a fire; gridiron.

dictionary.cambridge.org

grill

1. the surface in a cooker that can be heated to very high temperatures and…
dictionary.cambridge.org dictionary.cambridge.org
a frame of metal bars over a fire on which food can be put to be cooked
 
Very interesting thread, lots of dialog about what is grilling and of course the use of grill grates. Made me think about what I did last night. Used the vortex, guess that's not grilling as no direct heat under the food,
Hmmm ..... I won't go there. :unsure:
 
Rich Dahl said:
Very interesting thread, lots of dialog about what is grilling and of course the use of grill grates. Made me think about what I did last night. Used the vortex, guess that's not grilling as no direct heat under the food,
Hmmm ..... I won't go there. :unsure:
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Correct - Unless you crisp them up directly over the vortex for even a few seconds.
 
Rich, I don't think the heat has to come from below. I think the vortex thingy just produces a convection effect.
 

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By Larry's definition, Larry is a cheater. Big time. I'd say a worse cheater than when I whip out my beloved GGs on my old Silver B.

As Meathead explains below, there's three cooking methods going on at the same time in most grills. Conduction -- hot metal touching the food. Convection -- hot air touching the food. Radiation -- light waves touching the food.

Charcoal grilling (which we all agree is grilling) is mostly cooking by infrared radiation. It is the same process that we call broiling, except broiling implies that the radiation is coming from above rather than below.

Gas grills cook mostly by convection (cheating!). When you move the food over to indirect side (using charcoal or gas), that means convection (cheating!). Indirect Vortex - convection/cheating. Cooking with the lid down -- cheating.

Because gas grills (with their cheater flav bars, lava rocks, ceramic inserts, heat diffusers, etc.) lack radiation as compared to charcoal, Larry's gas grill has a separate IR sear burner to try to pump up the IR radiation for sear purposes. Which is EXACTLY my GGs claim to do -- increase IR radiation. Cheater Cheater Cheater!!!

Now the wide rails on the GGs make big grill marks because the wide surface cooks via conduction. Same process as you get from a Blackstone flat top or a cast iron pan. Y'all can debate whether a Blackstone or a cast iron pan on a kettle is "grilling."

If I'm not "grilling" when using my GGs on the Silver B then neither is Larry when using his Wolf gasser.


amazingribs.com

The Thermodynamics of Cooking and How Different Cooking Methods Work

Learn about thermodynamics: the basis of all cooking! Find out how heat transference works by conduction, convection, radiation, induction, and infrared heat in your grill, bbq, and smoker.
amazingribs.com
 
I'd say the ne plus ultra of IR grilling is the old hibachi grill. Pretty much 100% direct IR radiation.

Problem is that a hibachi is hard to cook on and very easy to overdo.

So most "grilling" technology is an attempt to control the IR radiation and replace it with convection. Lid, flav bars, indirect zones, etc.

Because gas grills may go too far down that convection path, there's features to bring back more IR radiation is a use-able way. Hence the sear burner on your high end grills. Or GGs on my old Silver B.

If I had a new Genesis II (better flame taming, bigger cook top, N/W burners for easier zoning, more even heat and an IR burner), I would have no need to the GGs. But the GGs were just the thing to keep my Silver B going.

FYI, the grill marks are not my reason for liking the GGs -- I prefer the overall sear to the stripes. For me it was flame suppression, heat evening and IR/heat boost. Plus the induction searing you get from the flat side.
 
Jim C in Denver said:
...FYI, the grill marks are not my reason for liking the GGs -- I prefer the overall sear to the stripes. For me it was flame suppression, heat evening and IR/heat boost. Plus the induction searing you get from the flat side.
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And they keep your grill useable a lot longer since more grease is incinerated before it gets down in your firebox :coolkettle: .
 
And they keep your grill useable a lot longer since more grease is incinerated before it gets down in your firebox

Agree that the GGs keep more grease out of your firebox.

I find cooking with the GGs to be a greasier and messier experience. Because more grease is kept up high and sizzling near the grill top where your hands are working.

For cleaning purposes, I'm fine if more grease falls down through the grates and gets burned down there. And scrape crud out of the pan and firebox versus up at the grill level. But keeping more grease away from the flames is a big plus for cooking performance.

I'm very pro-GG as an overall replacement for older grills like my Silver B sidewinder. If I had a big new Gen II or a Wolf like Larry, l wouldn't see the need for that. Except maybe as part of a sear/griddle station.
 
No worries. I will be "cheating" some catfish filets tonight I think. And laughing all the way :D
 
Jim C in Denver said:
By Larry's definition, Larry is a cheater. Big time. I'd say a worse cheater than when I whip out my beloved GGs on my old Silver B.

As Meathead explains below, there's three cooking methods going on at the same time in most grills. Conduction -- hot metal touching the food. Convection -- hot air touching the food. Radiation -- light waves touching the food.

Charcoal grilling (which we all agree is grilling) is mostly cooking by infrared radiation. It is the same process that we call broiling, except broiling implies that the radiation is coming from above rather than below.

Gas grills cook mostly by convection (cheating!). When you move the food over to indirect side (using charcoal or gas), that means convection (cheating!). Indirect Vortex - convection/cheating. Cooking with the lid down -- cheating.

Because gas grills (with their cheater flav bars, lava rocks, ceramic inserts, heat diffusers, etc.) lack radiation as compared to charcoal, Larry's gas grill has a separate IR sear burner to try to pump up the IR radiation for sear purposes. Which is EXACTLY my GGs claim to do -- increase IR radiation. Cheater Cheater Cheater!!!

Now the wide rails on the GGs make big grill marks because the wide surface cooks via conduction. Same process as you get from a Blackstone flat top or a cast iron pan. Y'all can debate whether a Blackstone or a cast iron pan on a kettle is "grilling."

If I'm not "grilling" when using my GGs on the Silver B then neither is Larry when using his Wolf gasser.


amazingribs.com

The Thermodynamics of Cooking and How Different Cooking Methods Work

Learn about thermodynamics: the basis of all cooking! Find out how heat transference works by conduction, convection, radiation, induction, and infrared heat in your grill, bbq, and smoker.
amazingribs.com
Click to expand...
@Jim C in Denver - I think you answered my ponderings very well. I tend to disagree with "Which is EXACTLY my GGs claim to do -- increase IR radiation.". I think there is so much more conduction that it basically renders the radiation moot. But like you said my Napoleon has that IR sear burner on the side and I have been cooking steaks, burgers, sausage on it, and it is quite fantastic. If you want more IR from your GGs I wonder if someone has tried using them without the flavorizer bars. Then you may get some radiant heat.
 
I tend to disagree with "Which is EXACTLY my GGs claim to do -- increase IR radiation.". I think there is so much more conduction that it basically renders the radiation moot.

Joe A -- I am a very data oriented guy. VERY. So anyone not interested in the data and science aspects can stop reading now. But since you asked...

I did the deep deep dive before getting the GGs in an effort to keep my old Silver B going. The analysis on AmazingRibs was convincing to me. First, because Meathead has an actual MIT physics professor who writes for his site (no exaggeration) on the science stuff. And second, the AR analysis confirmed what GG itself says.

The GGs give you a boost on both conduction and radiation. The big stripe grill marks from the wide flat rails is all conduction. And the flat side for searing or smash burgers is also mostly conduction.

The IR boost comes from the perforated underplate located a half inch below the food. Basically the same concept as the TRU-Infrared system that Char-broil uses. Explained by an engineer below.


Here's another science oriented take on the GGs, which is kinda loose imo data-wise. But it is in line with your thought that GGs are more about conduction than radiation.

www.wired.com

Give Your Gas Grill a Boost With These Replacement Grates

GrillGrates can upgrade a gas grill by improving its heat distribution. But not everyone will see the same results.
www.wired.com www.wired.com

End of the day, I use the flat side of the GGs for searing (conduction). Which makes up for my lack of a sear burner.

Don't really use them to get stripe marks (which is the SCA thing). Do use them as a de facto griddle (smashers; shrimp and veggies don't fall through).

Do use them for flare suppression. Do use them for evening out hot spots. Which my Silver B had problems with. And which gives the Silver B bigger cooking capacity de facto. Since the Silver B cook top is a little cramped and it gets even smaller when doing two zones. And two zones imo really doesn't work so well when using east/west burner orientation.

Do use them to get higher heat out of my old grill. That's where the radiation piece likely comes in. But not a huge deal in my particular use case. Removing the flav bars might give more of a boost (as you suggest), but then I'd be giving up some flare suppression. I do take out the flav bars when doing pizza -- no flare worries since no dripping grease. Flat side gets hotter without the flav bars and the flat side conduction is like with a pizza steel. But easy to overdo it and go from leopard spots to burned.

My bottom line on the GGs is pretty much the same as Meatheads below. Not seeing it so much for a charcoal grill since the charcoal IR radiation is the bomb. But quite helpful on many gas grills. Especially ones that don't have (like you and Larry have) a dedicated sear function.


OK, sometimes grill marks do come in handy. When you are cooking thin or small foods like skirt steak, asparagus, kabobs or shrimp, it is almost impossible to get dark brown surfaces with just radiation or convection before the center is overcooked. The only thing that works is conduction. And that means grill grates that transmit heat well. That’s why my two favorite grill grates are polar opposites. The best solution for both gas and charcoal grills? For gas grills, I recommend GrillGrates (TM), and for charcoal grills, thin stainless steel grates get the job done.
 
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Very good write up and info. The Charbroil vid I think was funny, as they were cooking on the IR plate and not the grates from what I can tell. The grill has grates that you are supposed to use over the IR plate. I am pretty sure you are not supposed to do that as they are quite thin and not meant to support food IMHO. I have flipped a few of these (just to save them from the trash). I have to admit that the undersides where in quite good shape for grill in the trash as the IR plate got nasty but did save the burners and flavorizers as you mentioned.
 
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