Amigo, It's Cold Outside


 
Lynn, it looks from the graph that wind was producing more power than anything else and more reliably that the natural gas, or am I reading it wrong?
I think you're reading it wrong.

Wind has its days in Texas, but its like an employee who ya never know if they're gonna show up for work and ya can't fire em. Ya still have to hire enough people to get the work done, whether he's there or not.

There were days this week when there was no wind in Oklahoma. And at the same time it was heavily overcast. Even if the turbines were not frozen, they weren't gonna help and solar was shut down also.
 
There were days this week when there was no wind in Oklahoma. And at the same time it was heavily overcast. Even if the turbines were not frozen, they weren't gonna help and solar was shut down also.

Wind turbines only need 7-8mph to generate power....unless the wind speed was pretty well 0, which is EXTREMELY rare, they are usually putting something out. Look at the Oklahoma wind history over the last month and you won't see many 0 days....or even under 10mph days. To put in another way...people WALK at 4mph...

Also, solar panels still generate significant power when overcast....I power my trailer with them and still get along fine on repeated overcast days.

I'd be interested in seeing the official readings of what the industrial producers are putting out....
 
Wind turbines only need 7-8mph to generate power....unless the wind speed was pretty well 0, which is EXTREMELY rare, they are usually putting something out. Look at the Oklahoma wind history over the last month and you won't see many 0 days....or even under 10mph days. To put in another way...people WALK at 4mph...

Also, solar panels still generate significant power when overcast....I power my trailer with them and still get along fine on repeated overcast days.

I'd be interested in seeing the official readings of what the industrial producers are putting out....

Well, I guess you set me straight
 
Lynn, it looks from the graph that wind was producing more power than anything else and more reliably that the natural gas, or am I reading it wrong?

Another large consideration about that graph, that is a graph of electric generation.

Most residential and commercial heating in Oklahoma and Texas comes from natural gas , not electric. Right now, I'm burning a lot of natural gas and only need electricity to run the fan on the furnace.

If we were totally dependent upon electric generation for heating, we would really be in a world of hurt.
 
First of all I hope all our friends in TX get their power back as quickly as possible.

I have gotten quite an education regarding power grids I did not realize that Texas had their own grid which became part of the problem for various reasons. Ironically El Paso is on the Western Grid and was not subject to ongoing power outages. Others have mentioned in the thread the renewable stuff actually performed pretty well as stated in the article its the Nat Gas that was the major problem.

Here is a link to a good article with a lot of info. Forget the political comments that's just IMO the blame game getting passed around.

 
Just saw this on Reddit where someone explains in some terms what is going on as well.... People did clarify the article...it's not like they are OUT of gas...but just cannot produce enough at the moment....


On the surface it seems like it's because it's cold in Texas but the problem isn't just failing to winterize. They can patch it up now and the next problem will come along and they'll fall apart again.

The problem is market incentives. Unlike the other states with deregulated power grids, ERCOT fails to incentivize grid capacity. They've hollowed out their baseline power generation in favor of alternative energy investors looking to make an easy buck.

This isn't the fault of wind energy. They're actually producing more power than expected. But what happened was while the green energy sector boomed, there was no money in upgrading oil and natural gas infrastructure to handle events like these where wind and solar are at low generation.

Because of the way they've structured pricing around grid capacity (by not rewarding baseline load), oil and gas power plants lose money when they operate in the winter season, which is usually mild in Texas. The way those baseline power plants save money is by not doing upgrades like winterizing, and another key factor: shutting down in the winter.

When the cold front hit, half the wind turbines shut down. That isn't a big deal. This was expected. Then, natural gas wellheads froze. New natural gas couldn't be gotten. But that's fine right? Texas is an oil and gas state after all. It has plenty of oil and gas.

Remember the part where their fossil fuel power plants are shut down for the winter? They can actually bring them up in short order, no problem. When all the other power plants were frozen out, ERCOT automatically increased the spot pricing of power, as it normally does. All the oil and gas plants scrambled to get back up and running. After all, they're losing out on millions of dollars every hour they're not pumping out electricity.

Which brings it to the final problem. As one of the cost-saving measures they took, these oil and gas power plants only store small amounts of fuel on site. They quickly run out. They look to Texas's many wells and refineries. But guess what those aren't winterized either. They've stopped producing oil. Oil-fired power plants stop working without oil. Combine-cycle gas generators don't run without natural gas. Electricity stops flowing.

Texas is freezing, because it's run out of oil and gas.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Texas. Ran. Out. Of. Oil. And. Gas.

At the moment, ERCOT is promising these power plants 50x the normal price for energy in certain cases. If anyone's got fuel and they're not burning it to make money, their investors should sue them for being idiots. The 30 GW deficit really goes to show how there is no more capacity.

In the future, oil and gas plants will probably be asked very politely by the people of Texas to keep more fuel on hand. Power plants will be asked to winterize. But at the end of the day, the issue is a lack of market incentive for grid capacity.

When I say they'll be asked to prepare more for the next spike in demand, that's a short-term solution that'll give them more time in an emergency. Obviously not a long-term fix. But even then, I'm being optimistic. It's entirely likely they just blame one of the hundreds of red herrings in the whole fiasco, blindfold themselves, and call it good.

This problem will only get worse as Texas's baseline generators get older and they shift more into green energy. The solution was to invest in both: keep upgrading old plants and incentivize them to pad the capacity, build new wind and solar, maybe consider nuclear in the long run. Unless they fix their market incentive structure, this will happen again. Maybe it'll be the hottest days in summer. Maybe it'll be another winter storm. Maybe it'll be the next superbowl. Nobody knows. Oh yeah, and electricity bills will go up.
 
I feel fortunate here in OKC, that I only went one hour without electricity and that was due to a rolling black out.

When we had a similar weather event in Dec 1983, we did not have any of these problems. But after further thought, in 83 we were burning more coal for electricity than we are now. And that would be all across the Southwest Power Pool, which our Oklahoma utilities are members.

So even if nat gas wells were frozen in 83, we had enough coal generation to power through it.

Texas also lost a nuclear plant, that was a part of their base load and put more pressure on nat gas. Coal and nuclear should make up the base load.

I doesn't appear to me that wind performed well, it did not meet ERCOT's low expectations. The bar was not set very high.
 
Not sure I would call wind not performing well and yes there are low expectations but it was not meant to cover the load and compared to what was expected to carry the load I would say it did a lot better. Many of the things stated in the article Grant posted contributed and those things will need to be addressed, because of cold weather packages which these turbines can be equipped with for instance in Canada they are good to 22 below.

Ain't gonna be a cheap fix and I guess you could say well maybe it won't happen again but they had issues in 2011 they were able to control it with rolling blackouts but not this time.

Coal use is and has been declining for years in my State GA its down to about 20% of production for energy from 70% years ago. We have no utility-scale wind-powered electricity generation there is some in the mountains not much as well as near the coast.

Quote from Five things to know:
Still, the renewable source struggled far less than natural gas.

Wind production fell 1 gigawatt below the 6 gigawatts officials predicted would be needed to cover winter demand, whereas electricity from coal, natural gas and nuclear fell 30 gigawatts below the more than 60 gigawatts they were expected to deliver.
 
Maybe there's some small adjustments that both govt and energy providers can do to lessen the severity. But I can't see spending millions of dollars to weatherize for sub freezing temps from a weather anomaly. If this happened three times over a 10 year period, I would say the climate has changed and investment needs to be made.
Agree. Lynn, there has only been one other weather event this cold for this long -- since 1899. Since a turbine has a service expectancy of about 20 years, the math doesn't make sense. The big problem -- I think someone stated it above -- was that the base capacity (gas, coal, hydro) also had supply issues in the face of massively higher demand. Another exacerbating situation was the roads. Most roads were impassable from Sunday through Tuesday, so electrical service was stopped for a couple of critical days. We didn't have an outage as such, but we had our power shut off for hours at a time due to the rolling blackouts.

Jeff
 
But the expectations set for wind were way below wind's capacity. Just go look at the graph I posted yesterday, look what wind was producing in the days preceeding the storm and what happened when the storm hit. The HIll is putting a spin on it , for whatever reason.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-spins-into-the-wind-11613605698?mod=opinion_lead_pos1

https://streetwiseprofessor.com/who-is-to-blame-for-swps-and-texass-forced-outage/
So CBS was putting a spin on it, the Hill as well as Forbes and others it seems this Street wise professor was putting a spin on it. One of the links on the WSJ article is admitted: Some readers have questioned our reporting Wednesday ("The Political Making of a Texas Power Outage") that wind’s share of electricity generation in Texas plunged to 8% from 42%. How can that be, they wonder, when the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (Ercot) has reported that it counts on wind to meet only 10% of its winter capacity.

If you search there are many disputing that WSJ article actually they have one out a day later saying the opposite and by the way the Hill did not come up with those numbers ERCOT did. The governor is already back peddling reality is the Nat Gas was the problem and as you pointed out a nuclear plant going down also.

We as I stated we don't even have wind turbines per se and I know of course its not the total answer but to blame that for the Texas disaster is absurd if the Nat Gas did not go down they probably would have been okay but of course that did not happen. There is going to be a lot of finger pointing once this thing sorts out in that State. Decisions need to be made to truly winterize their stuff because gambling after what happened on it not happening again is a bad bet. They also unlike the other grids do not have penalties for no backup supplies when you ran out as it was not supposed to be a problem just turn up the spigot except the spigot was frozen.

By the way let me make it clear this is not about bashing TX I am from Atlanta which made very poor decisions back in 2014 with an ice storm. They had a bad forecast tried to squeeze in a half day of school then decided to let the entire city out at noon or somewhere around that my office told everyone to go home at 1 it was 26 miles from my office to home took me 8 1/2 hours to get home Had nothing to do with the snow it was the ice, I am from the northeast ice not so bad but I learned do not drive in the ice ruts they control your car not you. I got in the speed lane which has the bumps or whatever you call them when you get to far left and I was fine as I watched cars in the ruts flying off the road and got a BMW rear wheel drive with those hi performance tires or got a nice corvette they were all dumped to the side of the road.

We learned though and TX will also a few weeks later another prediction of an ice storm everything shut down ahead of that turns out it never happened but nobody cared they were happy it did not turn into another nightmare.


I get its a different situation but they are going to need to be prepared the next time if it means spending the money to stop nat gas from flowing winterizing or whatever that is what they will need to do which means don't think it will ever happen again cause my guess is it will.

Lynn we can agree to disagree its all good really hope you don't think I am a jerk cause I am not but I always call it the way I see it which by the way probably wrong 50% of the time maybe more. :unsure:
 
Actually, Streetwise Professor is a Texan. He's finance professor at the Univ of Houston. He specializes in commodities. He actually has skin in the game. He's not some outsider trying to capitalize politically from a weather event. I've read his blog for years and I trust him. He's not real optimistic about the future, I'm not either.
 
Damn thin narrow pipe in my mother in law's house going to the ice maker in the fridge froze. When the heat came back it on it burst and destroyed the whole ceiling in the kitchen, ruined some carpet, potentially some damage in the walls and cabinets. We got it mostly cleaned up yesterday. I wish I'd caught it sooner. So there's at least a 1600 deductible there and hers is probably far from the only house with that kind of damage due largely to the power going out for so long. We mostly got off easy compared to a lot of people.

I have to wonder what the cost would have been to winterize the power grid vs. the cost of repairs for people all over the state. It seems to me to be no different than a tax, except this tax is a complete surprise and we still don't have a winterized robust power grid.
 
Besides the catastrophic handling of the power situation here in the banana republic of Texas I would love to see a change in how we build houses . If our houses would have proper insulation in walls and roofs we would not need that much energy in the first place. In winter everything freezes up and in summer the AC can't get the houses cold enough.
 
Up here, we take high home insulation pretty seriously now (and have for many years), but there is certainly a lot of room for improvement yet...



That said, makes building a home a lot more $$ too....
 
Its just about over here in Oklahoma, and all in all, I'm pretty happy with how we handled it. I see no need to force additional expense on our gas producers by mandating they winterize their wells. They're already working with low nat gas prices and prices have been low for the last decade. Wind is taking their market share in all seasons except summer, when wind disappears on our hottest days. Here in Oklahoma we've also increased taxes on their production.

I haven't liked living with the threat of rolling blackouts, but this weather event is something that's happened here once every 40 years. I think I can deal with it.
 
The temp finally rose above freezing here in Texas Hill Country for a couple of hours yesterday afternoon. Down in the high teens last night, but today it's sunny and 40°. A Slight dip below freezing tonight, but from there on, above freezing for the foreseeable future. The snow is melting and the roads are clear. We went on an unsuccessful run for milk, eggs and bread a few hours ago, but we did see several beer trucks heading into town, so life will be back to normal very shortly.

Jeff
 
Up here, we take high home insulation pretty seriously now (and have for many years), but there is certainly a lot of room for improvement yet...



That said, makes building a home a lot more $$ too....
Yea, I built quite a few passive solar houses in the late 70's early 80's.
Double wall construction saved on energy bills, but you lost square footage and it took years and years to recoup any savings from the construction cost.
Then we tried 2x6 exterior walls for the extra R-value. That was ok for awhile but the cost again drove up the price.
I imagine quite a few things have changed since then, like spray in foam and high efficiency furnaces.
I worked with so many builders who just wanted the house sold, and pass code, so they did what was required, but rarely anything extra.
 

 

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