Technivorm Moccamaster Coffee Machine

[MikeLucky]

I read it. And I "get it" in theory. I actually did run an independent hard (filtered) water line up to my sink. It was a bit of a headache because I use RO water in the kitchen for other things. Cooking, my ice maker, and so on. But, I persevered and gave it a whirl. I tried it side by side. RO in it and just the plain filtered artesian water we get here in the village. Made no difference in taste or aroma, or brewing. So in order to do this satisfactorily would have meant running yet a 3rd line up, and, a second faucet on the kit sink.
Now quite truthfully? If I had noticed some magical properties making my coffee take on mystical taste and aroma qualities I would have done it. But, I didn't And it was too big a PIA cooking with just filtered water as ny pans would develop a mineral coating. Made them miserable to clean.
Also every time or second time I brewed, the inside of the water tank looked dirty.
So I just pulled that filtered line out, reconnected the RO line and called it a day. I figured if the heating element began to leak............I would take it apart and install a new one. That would be easier than the headache of a 3rd faucet on the kitchen sink.
And FWIW I tried the regular filtered water with many different grind sizes, bean brands and types (everyting from med roast to dark) and not one little bit of difference could be attributed to "the water".
Also every other brewer I have ever had never said anything about not using RO, only to use "good clean" water. So IDK define "good clean".
Don't get me wrong. The Moccamaster is an outstanding product. My gripe is pretty much no matter with what I grind with, how I grind, type or brand of coffee. Unless I stand there every AM, and hold in the safety button until about 2 indicated cups brew into the basket, then release the button, and wait 30 seconds or so, the bed of coffee is never uniformly "wetted". I always end up with either a "dry area" or a big "divet" in the bed on one side of the basket. As 80% of the water discharges to the side of the bed closest to the water tank.
This has been an ongoing frustration since I have owned it. I even tried pre-ground commercial coffee i.e. PEETS and a couple other quaity brands. Nothing changed it. (and yes the counter and coffee maker are level). This is the only brewer of all I have had with this issue.

Yeah, it's not that it makes a difference in the brew or the taste.... it's chemistry, yo. lol

"In reverse osmosis water and distilled water, all minerals are removed, and the water’s PH becomes slightly acidic. The water will leach minerals out of the copper boiling element to return to a neutral PH, eventually damaging the copper element permanently. Because we build Moccamaster coffee brewers to last for a long time, using reverse osmosis or distilled water could significantly reduce the brewer’s life."

 

[LMichaels]

Yeah, it's not that it makes a difference in the brew or the taste.... it's chemistry, yo. lol

"In reverse osmosis water and distilled water, all minerals are removed, and the water’s PH becomes slightly acidic. The water will leach minerals out of the copper boiling element to return to a neutral PH, eventually damaging the copper element permanently. Because we build Moccamaster coffee brewers to last for a long time, using reverse osmosis or distilled water could significantly reduce the brewer’s life."

Yes, I went through that. But they also had a blurb on how plain filtered water would turn your coffee into a magical potion. I tested extensively. Both ways. If it's "hurting" the brewer it has not yet. IDK, even if I don't end up replacing it, (the brewer), it will still likely hold up fine. It just wasn't worth all the fuss and bother to me.

 

[LMichaels]

Well first use of the Breville. Nice coffee. basically the same as if I stood there with the Moccamaster trying to be sure the entire bed of coffee was wetted. So both make a very nice cup, the Breville simply does it easier. But neither one, still, equals the OXO Barista Brain I gave up on.
I guess I can play a little with the brew settings on the Breville. But to me, for right out of the box excellent coffee, I hold the OXO, #1, the Breville 2 (because of the ease) and the Moccamaster 3. But, if I could find a better spray head for the Moccamaster I would love to retry this test. I think with a better spray arm the Moccamaster would be numero uno. My reasoning is that even if I go through all the bother to stand there, watching the water enter the brew basket, do the bloom, and then continue on, it's still pushing the water only to one side of the brew basket and IMO not pulling the full "potential" of the extraction. Because when I pull the basket off to empty it. You can still see how the water "dug" a furrow to the one side.
Honestly they're missing the boat on that machine. how hard could it be, to simply make a slightly longer and wider spray head (or circular) to cover the entire bed and fully wet it.

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

Honestly they're missing the boat on that machine. how hard could it be, to simply make a slightly longer and wider spray head (or circular) to cover the entire bed and fully wet it.

Likely not too difficult but in reality, it's a very small issue relative to number of units sold vs minimal complaints.
In almost every formal test/comparison/rating, the Moccamaster comes out on top. I for one can't taste any difference by stirring the grounds, flooding the filter basket or temporarily stopping the brewing process for "bloom". Two Moccamasters with different water suppliers in different locations using the same beans ground to the same medium/course grind and the coffee just tastes great from both.
Likely most folks experience.

 

[LMichaels]

Likely not too difficult but in reality, it's a very small issue relative to number of units sold vs minimal complaints.
In almost every formal test/comparison/rating, the Moccamaster comes out on top. I for one can't taste any difference by stirring the grounds, flooding the filter basket or temporarily stopping the brewing process for "bloom". Two Moccamasters with different water suppliers in different locations using the same beans ground to the same medium/course grind and the coffee just tastes great from both.
Likely most folks experience.

I can DEFINITELY taste (and smell) the difference of "blooming", I wish I had taken a photo of the grounds bed after brewing (with and without the "bloom") on the Moccamaster. The difference in flavor is quite noticeable to me. And thos goes no matter the water type used (RO or filtered artesian).
Now this AM though, I did take a photo of the bed from the Breville. Fully wetted (maybe a little too fine a grind), with machine on "Gold" setting. On Gold it does not do a "Bloom". It goes through a preheat cycle, then once up to temp (and I ran some empty cycles with the probe from my Smoke in the basket) it gets to 196 and holds pretty steady right there. I do notice though at 196 this is a distinctly lower temp than the Moccamaster as when you pour straight from brewing, the coffee is somewhat "cooler" to taste than from the Moccamaster. I noticed this yesterday on my first pot, and was wondering about it because coffee from the Dutch machine is (to feel maybe 15 deg) hotter in the cup and carafe. So I would have to estimate the Dutch machine is brewing closer to the top end of Gold Standard (more like 205ish) than the Breville's 196. It never hit 200 and never goes below 194 hovering between 194 and 198.
BTW this Am's coffee was more akin to what I would drink from the OXO from which I loved that brew. So, is the Breville better than the Dutch baby? No. I honestly think if someone made a more effective spray arm, I might just prefer the Dutch machine (for it's total simplicity). Stay tuned. And if anyone EVER hears of a better spray arm for the Dutch machine...........................let me know. I am first in line! Anyway here is a photo after brewing this AM of using 30oz water and 49 grams (unground weight) of Kirkland Dark roast beans with a med/fine grind in the Shidiip grinder. On Gold brew setting.

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

I can DEFINITELY taste (and smell) the difference of "blooming", I wish I had taken a photo of the grounds bed after brewing (with and without the "bloom") on the Moccamaster. The difference in flavor is quite noticeable to me. And thos goes no matter the water type used (RO or filtered artesian).
Now this AM though, I did take a photo of the bed from the Breville. Fully wetted (maybe a little too fine a grind), with machine on "Gold" setting. On Gold it does not do a "Bloom". It goes through a preheat cycle, then once up to temp (and I ran some empty cycles with the probe from my Smoke in the basket) it gets to 196 and holds pretty steady right there. I do notice though at 196 this is a distinctly lower temp than the Moccamaster as when you pour straight from brewing, the coffee is somewhat "cooler" to taste than from the Moccamaster. I noticed this yesterday on my first pot, and was wondering about it because coffee from the Dutch machine is (to feel maybe 15 deg) hotter in the cup and carafe. So I would have to estimate the Dutch machine is brewing closer to the top end of Gold Standard (more like 205ish) than the Breville's 196. It never hit 200 and never goes below 194 hovering between 194 and 198.
BTW this Am's coffee was more akin to what I would drink from the OXO from which I loved that brew. So, is the Breville better than the Dutch baby? No. I honestly think if someone made a more effective spray arm, I might just prefer the Dutch machine (for it's total simplicity). Stay tuned. And if anyone EVER hears of a better spray arm for the Dutch machine...........................let me know. I am first in line! Anyway here is a photo after brewing this AM of using 30oz water and 49 grams (unground weight) of Kirkland Dark roast beans with a med/fine grind in the Shidiip grinder. On Gold brew setting.
View attachment 82882

Shower Head Insert For Technivorm Moccamaster

This insert is designed to improve water distribution from a narrow band to a round shower pattern. This produces smoother, more evenly brewed coffee - a difference you can taste. It's constructed from BPA-Free Polypropylene plastic and Stainless Steel, and will last as long as your coffee...

coffeepilot.ca

 

[LMichaels]

Shower Head Insert For Technivorm Moccamaster

This insert is designed to improve water distribution from a narrow band to a round shower pattern. This produces smoother, more evenly brewed coffee - a difference you can taste. It's constructed from BPA-Free Polypropylene plastic and Stainless Steel, and will last as long as your coffee...

coffeepilot.ca

I have seen this. Don't want anything to do with it. Anything between the actual head and the bed IMO is a recipe for possible disaster at worst or at best just a way for the water to cool enough to change the brew. . The fact that this even exists though shows I am not the only person who is disappointed with how the head "disperses" the water on the Moccamaster.

 

[JKalchik]

We have a Technivorm CDT (the 15 cup office model.) The filter cover has a pattern of drip holes about 1.5" in diameter. When I dump the filter basket after brewing, all of the grounds have been wetted, and a nearly even depth across. I have to wonder if this just happens to be a better design than some of the smaller bar sprays.

 

[LMichaels]

OK so all this experimentation got me to wondering..........and so, I broke out the Moccamaster and performed the exact same tests (temps in basket and in carafe) with exact same amount of water (so as to not skew temps due to longer or shorter "run" times) with the exact same sensing equipment and the results were "eye opening" to say the least.
Assuming since the Moccamaster is SCAA certified I have to assume that by having used the Gold setting on the Breville I kept things as closely controlled as possible. So here is the result from the test run on the Moccamaster
Temp during brew mostly 185 peaking to 193 so have to say avg about 187/188F. Temp in the carafe immediately after flow stops was fully 10deg COOLER than the same reading in the Breville carafe (taken within same time frame), yet the coffee in the Breville carafe (to the tongue) feels much cooler and to be sure when I measured it yesterday the Breville carafe water was at 185 while the water in the Moccamaster carafe (again within same time frame) was only 175!
Yet in the time between when I brew and FINALLY sit to consume it the Breville carafe is clearly inferior because if I were to pour straight into cup within this time frame from Moccamaster and take a slug I would burn my mouth. Not so on the Breville.
The reasoning is I typically set up my brewer first thing. Then while it brews, I will likely go and have a pee, brush my teeth, take my insulin injection, then take my meds and a large amount of "hydration" (usually very thirsty in AM so drink about 32 oz of water straight up), then go and relax about 5 or 6 min so I can take and record my blood pressure, weight and so on to send off to the docs, and then FINALLY after all this I can consume my first cup o joe. So the time between brewing and finally consuming is about 30 min total (give or take). I do it this way so my wife (who is usually up due to still being employed is up 30 to 45 min ahead of me and is anxious to get a cup and watch the AM news before leaving to the salt mines.
Otherwise I would not brew until I was ready to consume.
So it's obvious the Moccamaster carafe is superior (holding heat) to the Breville. But then the Breville is so easy to keep clean being wide mouth enough to fit my hand into with a sponge and soapy water and clean after each use.
So, these are all VERY interesting results as I would have never guessed the Moccamaster's brew temps were that much cooler than the Breville's temps. Especially because I have always read, the SCAA says water temps must be between 195 to 205.
Now maybe if I stuck the probe into the actual spray arm of the Moccamaster it MIGHT be that hot IDK. But the bottom line IMO is the temps where the $$$ is and that is the coffee bed (or brew basket).
Now the only tests I have not performed is placing a probe in a bed of grinds while brewing though I am unsure if it would change anything.

 

[JKalchik]

Now the only tests I have not performed is placing a probe in a bed of grinds while brewing though I am unsure if it would change anything.

There's an interesting thought. I think I have a spare thermoprobe for my HeaterMeter, and I'll bet it'd fit nicely through the filter lid into the grounds. Might be an interesting experiment for Saturday morning. I think I can pull out the temp data as a CSV or some such.

 

[DanHoo]

So here is the result from the test run on the Moccamaster
Temp during brew mostly 185 peaking to 193 so have to say avg about 187/188F.

Perhaps the issue you are having with the MM is temp related.

When was your last descale on the Moccamaster? ( You may have already told us but I'm too lazy to sift through 16 pages to find it )

Larry, can you describe in detail how/where you measured the brew temp? I'd like to measure mine in the same way.

I have a thermapen one so I think that's accurate enough.

 

[LMichaels]

Perhaps the issue you are having with the MM is temp related.

When was your last descale on the Moccamaster? ( You may have already told us but I'm too lazy to sift through 16 pages to find it )

Larry, can you describe in detail how/where you measured the brew temp? I'd like to measure mine in the same way.

I have a thermapen one so I think that's accurate enough.

I used the needle probe (due to it's smaller size and ability to fit in the baskets with the lid on) for my ThermoWorks Smoke I just bought. Prior to doing this I also coordinated using a controlled temp my ThermoPro Lightning and the ThermoWorks Smoke to be sure that they would read exactly same temps so I had no discrepancies.
I placed the Smoke probe in the basket in the shower stream so it would get bathed as soon as water exited the head. and also pick up water accumulated in the basket. Additionally I allowed water to accumulate in the baskets by "duping" each machine into filling each basket with brew water. Just to see if I noted any difference between the 2 styles of readings. I noticed no difference so what I reported is exactly as the water bathed the temp probe sitting in the brew basket. I did not use the ThermoPro Lightning for this due to the large diameter of the probe and inability to actually get the point into the stream effectively.
Once the equal amounts of water were "brewed" I immediately measured the temp of it in the carafe. And oddly found that my reading differentials noted during the brew also held in the carafe. I.E. with the Breville water being about 10 deg hotter all the way through the cycle than the MM water. Which honestly "shocked" me. I would have never thought (especially after consuming coffee from both) the Breville brewed hotter than the MM.
As for "descaling". I fully descaled the MM after the period in which I used the Artesian filtered water and switched it back to RO system water. I have tested my RO water and there is no TDS in it. So honestly there would be literally nothing to descale

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

We have a Technivorm CDT (the 15 cup office model.) The filter cover has a pattern of drip holes about 1.5" in diameter. When I dump the filter basket after brewing, all of the grounds have been wetted, and a nearly even depth across. I have to wonder if this just happens to be a better design than some of the smaller bar sprays.

This is exactly what I observed with both Moccamaster CDGT models we have. Also, I believe there are 9 holes evenly separated on the spray arm.

 

[LMichaels]

This is exactly what I observed with both Moccamaster CDGT models we have. Also, I believe there are 9 holes evenly separated on the spray arm.

The majority of the water simply falls along the side of the brew basket, leaving a furrow there and if nothing else is done the grounds on the side of the basket away from the water tank literally will still be dry.
It desperately needs a better spray arm with better distribution. So perhaps the larger model is better at this? Honestly other than all the little plasticy parts you have to deal with (the basket cover, the pastic carafe rest, having to change caps on the carafe for before and after brew, Honestly I can deal with all the little stuff like that. But if I redesigned this thing that spray arm would be the first thing I would change

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

The majority of the water simply falls along the side of the brew basket, leaving a furrow there and if nothing else is done the grounds on the side of the basket away from the water tank literally will still be dry.
It desperately needs a better spray arm with better distribution. So perhaps the larger model is better at this? Honestly other than all the little plasticy parts you have to deal with (the basket cover, the pastic carafe rest, having to change caps on the carafe for before and after brew, Honestly I can deal with all the little stuff like that. But if I redesigned this thing that spray arm would be the first thing I would change

Too bad your particular unit isn't performing to optimal standards.
Nothing but outstanding performance from both of ours.

 

[LMichaels]

Too bad your particular unit isn't performing to optimal standards.
Nothing but outstanding performance from both of ours.

Ahh, the performance is good. It just really needs a redesign on that arm. And yeah, like my wife says I am VERY picky especially on my coffee

 

[LMichaels]

Here is what happens now with the Breville brewer. Gold setting. and the grind setting (just to coarse side of frip on my Shardor grinder), and 40oz water to 66-67 grams coffee as recommended by Breville. Unlike the Moccamaster note the "divet" is right in the center and all grounds fully wetted. Had I done the same thing on the MM, (without manually stopping the brew cycle) the "divet" would have been deeper and to one side of the cone, and the other side literally "dry".
Now I am not sure if my grind setting is fine tuned enough right now for the Breville but it did make a nice pot o' Jo despite using the last of those beans I am not very fond of. I just wish the carafe kept it a little hotter longer. But I think it's the price you pay for having a wide mouth pour through carafe lid that is easier to clean. IDK

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

Here is what happens now with the Breville brewer. Gold setting. and the grind setting (just to coarse side of frip on my Shardor grinder), and 40oz water to 66-67 grams coffee as recommended by Breville. Unlike the Moccamaster note the "divet" is right in the center and all grounds fully wetted. Had I done the same thing on the MM, (without manually stopping the brew cycle) the "divet" would have been deeper and to one side of the cone, and the other side literally "dry".
Now I am not sure if my grind setting is fine tuned enough right now for the Breville but it did make a nice pot o' Jo despite using the last of those beans I am not very fond of. I just wish the carafe kept it a little hotter longer. But I think it's the price you pay for having a wide mouth pour through carafe lid that is easier to clean. IDK
View attachment 83048

That's pretty much what the spent grounds look like in my Moccamasters.

 

[LMichaels]

That's pretty much what the spent grounds look like in my Moccamasters.

If they did on mine I would not have bought the Breville. I have tried everything from really fine grind, up to nearly french press grind in it. Seems the coarser the worse it is.
On the OXO 9 cup, they were fully wetted with no divet at all due to the large shower spray head in there. Tried the Zojirushi for a short while. Nice maker. Loved the removable water tank, build quality, outstanding carafe hot coffee nearly all day, good programability (so on days wifey needed her fix before I got up it was done), BUT I don't brew full pots of coffee. And no matter what I did the Zojirushi gave me rather weak, acidic brew. Again no matter the grind or amount used per measure of water, a basket filter just does not cut it for a 30oz pot (which for us gives her a solid cup and a half and me 2 cups). So as good as Zojirushi was made it could not make a satisfactory cup o' Joe for me.
The OXO still takes the prize for best overall cup. (VERY closely to the Breville). The OXO tended to brew just a little slower overall which I think may have extracted just a touch more flavor from whatever bean/grind I used.
Honestly 2 things were it's downfall in my book. Awful to keep clean, and overall so poorly made. This seems to be OXO's downfall. They make a very well thought out appliance, that performs beautifully when new, but then does not hold up and breaks in very short order. In my case it was always either the basket broke and or the carafe would leak at the seam near the top. And the space between the inner lining and the outer would fill up so when you would pour dark disgusting slimy liquid would deposit itself on the outside. Yuk.
In terms of quality "feel" I would even have to put the Breville slightly ahead of the Moccamaster. It just feels like it's built like a vault. Very heavy and very sturdy.
I think I will order a new lid for the carafe. Perhaps the seal(s) are not as tight as when new? Because every other "test" of the Breville I see praises how long it's carafe keeps the brew hot (at 165 or above) with most saying as much as 4 hours. We shall see

 

[DanHoo]

My mocca master.