Why doesn't brisket internal temp matter?
- Thread starter Pinny
- Start date
Shawn W
TVWBB Emerald Member
Ok, a q for the McBrisket
guys:
Say for the sake of argument you Q your brisket at 250º and your magic number is 200º.
You cook it as planned (foil at 165ºF) until it hits 195ºF internal. Then, your pit temp drops to 195ºF and you can't do anything to raise it. According to the magic temp theory it will never be done (tender) because it never hit 200ºF. Well, I'm pretty certain it WILL get tender ... you would just need to leave it a little longer.
If you agree to that, then in our scenario what if the pit temp was lowered to 190ºF? Will it get tender then? What about 180? 170? 160?
An observation: If you are cooking 10, 20, 100 briskets and always cook to the same temp with the same method HOW are you sure they are all the same tenderness and moisture? Did you check every one for tender or just remove it at the magic temp. Checking for tender would be redundant right because we know it's hit the right temp? So if you didn't check for tender did you slice and taste every one you cooked and compare them simultaneously? So, if you didn't check for tender, and you didn't slice and taste them, how can you claim they all came out the same?
Edit: MCBrisket referring to consistency ... not lousy.
Say for the sake of argument you Q your brisket at 250º and your magic number is 200º.
You cook it as planned (foil at 165ºF) until it hits 195ºF internal. Then, your pit temp drops to 195ºF and you can't do anything to raise it. According to the magic temp theory it will never be done (tender) because it never hit 200ºF. Well, I'm pretty certain it WILL get tender ... you would just need to leave it a little longer.
If you agree to that, then in our scenario what if the pit temp was lowered to 190ºF? Will it get tender then? What about 180? 170? 160?
An observation: If you are cooking 10, 20, 100 briskets and always cook to the same temp with the same method HOW are you sure they are all the same tenderness and moisture? Did you check every one for tender or just remove it at the magic temp. Checking for tender would be redundant right because we know it's hit the right temp? So if you didn't check for tender did you slice and taste every one you cooked and compare them simultaneously? So, if you didn't check for tender, and you didn't slice and taste them, how can you claim they all came out the same?
Edit: MCBrisket referring to consistency ... not lousy.
Dave Hutson
TVWBB Super Fan
Dave, the fork is used due to the nature of the pit and its construction. Unlike a WSM, the large pit doesn't hold a constant temperature from end to end, thus meat is rotated and flipped to ensure even cooking. Whole packers are too heavy for tongs.
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Paul, I am always amazed when folks tell me their pit is within 5 degrees end to end!! My Klose is all over the place!! Ever try using those neoprene gloves? I never have trouble with them and they work great for pulling pork and slicing briskets! Do you cook comp in Tejas? I have MANY friends down there , Most are in that TGCBBQA or whatever it is called. We get together the first weekend in November at a friend's house with about 35 guys out near Flatonia about an hour from you for a party we call Q-fest. We usually make it over to Austin. We went to Cavender's for some boots and shirts and Baby A's for Tex Mex this year! Then we go over to Shiner to drink! Been to Luhling, and Lockhart many times! Maybe you can join us next year! Woodman
Dave,
The neoprene gloves are probably a great idea; just never got around to buying them. Years ago, a friend made this "fork" from a rake handle and we've just been using it ever since. Poking them hasn't seemed to affect the moisture level so far.
And as far as the pit goes, I'm sure it's not nearly as accurate as your Close. It was handmade from fire brick and limestone. I don't do comps; would like to try, but to date haven't had the chance. These large cooks are for fund raising purposes. Sounds like a great time in Flatonia.
Shawn; I'm not sure about an answer to your temp question. I think it depends on the temp. I would think that the collagen in brisket breaks down at a certain temp; what that is, I don't know. It may dry out before it gets tender at 160.
I don't. However, due to the nature of brisket, I don't think you could literally get any 2 or more to the exact same level of tenderness and moistness. I merely check for tenderness since once they're on, you can't really do anything about moistness other than avoiding overcooking. For tenderness, as stated in the earlier posting, when rotating, the meat is pierced and you can feel how tender the meat is.
Paul
The neoprene gloves are probably a great idea; just never got around to buying them. Years ago, a friend made this "fork" from a rake handle and we've just been using it ever since. Poking them hasn't seemed to affect the moisture level so far.
And as far as the pit goes, I'm sure it's not nearly as accurate as your Close. It was handmade from fire brick and limestone. I don't do comps; would like to try, but to date haven't had the chance. These large cooks are for fund raising purposes. Sounds like a great time in Flatonia.
Shawn; I'm not sure about an answer to your temp question. I think it depends on the temp. I would think that the collagen in brisket breaks down at a certain temp; what that is, I don't know. It may dry out before it gets tender at 160.
I don't. However, due to the nature of brisket, I don't think you could literally get any 2 or more to the exact same level of tenderness and moistness. I merely check for tenderness since once they're on, you can't really do anything about moistness other than avoiding overcooking. For tenderness, as stated in the earlier posting, when rotating, the meat is pierced and you can feel how tender the meat is.
Paul
Dave Hutson
TVWBB Super Fan
In all honesty Shawn, I have no idea if every one is the same or not. I know what their doneness level is by the way they slice. If they are underdone, they will tend to curve or become concave along the slicing plane if that makes sense. The middle draws in. Anybody who has sliced alot of brisket probably knows what I mean. If I can get it to 190, I can get it done no matter what because I usually drop them into a cooler from there with a heavy towel on top and they will "elevate" to done-ness! In fairness, I do know if they are done when the thermo probe slides in, but I still want to see a temp. I am just a little perplexed as MOST beginners I have encountered, seem to have a light go off when they are given the method I mentioned of 160-foil-195. It seems to be the opposite here?
Shawn W
TVWBB Emerald Member
I agree there must be a threshold ... if temp falls below a certain temp (factoring conditions up to that point in the cook) it won't make it to tenderland. Some of the long slow cooks early on in my WSM days dried out some meat. 28 hours on a whole boneless blade come to mind.
My earlier post to Pinney about every litle thing, most of them would be taste issues if anything, but I think some would be texture affecting particularly diet and lifestyle. I'm trying to say I don't believe there is a huge difference in spite of those factors and that every cook is a total crapshoot but some of those factors at times must cause some variance in results.
It's because they don't know any better dude.
Finish temps are great as guidelines. I agree with Dale and Kevin, check for done by feel, use an early temp as a guideline. I agree with you too about trying to use consistent process and product.
Dale Perry
TVWBB Guru
I have cooked some bad brisket in my day. To me it is the hardest meat to get right but temping early, going by feel towards the end works for us. It just so happens that the temps Dave has said are usually right for ours.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
The threshold is ~140. This is the temp that collagen starts to render. It takes temps above this for protein detachment to start occurring and gelatinizing to commence. (In Q circles 160 or so is often referred to as the point of initial breakdown. Though incorrect, it tends to be about the point where we notice it on a therm, the 'plateau'.)
At temps above 140 time is the operative issue, not internal. We can see this easily when cooking tough cuts of meat sous-vide (vac-packed in a constant-temp waterbath). Though some chefs will cook between 130 (the top of the danger zone) and 140, often 136, for textural concerns, many cook cuts like brisket, chuck and short ribs at ~145. This temp is enough to establish good rendering but time is the issue. Depending on the cut, times of 24-36 hours are needed.
And that's my point. That's true for many. But if feel is the focus for the finish--whether or not you temp--every brisket will be tender because tender was what was used to determine done.
Kevin
P.S. Initial collagen breakdown in fish is much lower, about 105.
Larry Wolfe
Closed Account
I temp every brisket I cook. I foil between 160-165º and start checking for 'doneness' between 180-185º and have had several briskets done (meaning they were tender) in that range (below 190º). However I rarely get a brisket that needs to be cooked past 190º, unless there is alot of resistance when probed. Once the brisket hits 190º it rests double wrapped in a cooler for a minimum of 1 hour, but 2-3 hours is even better. This method gives me a tender, yet sliceable brisket without falling apart. Tender...meaning you can hold a 1/4" thick slice with two fingers on each end and easily pull it apart or cut with a fork. I cook both select and choice briskets using this method and I could not tell a difference between them.
Dave Hutson
TVWBB Super Fan
I find that most people like it like they like their ribs.......FALLING APART!
Dave Hutson
TVWBB Super Fan
Might be an "Ohio" thing!
Dale Perry
TVWBB Guru
Everyone I know from Kentucky thinks ribs falling apart is a sign of perfection. Brisket is usually served chopped. So I guess those doing the cooking do not temp anything.
Larry Wolfe
Closed Account
Well I'm not Dave, but will put in my .02. I like to tightly wrap the briskets in a double layer of HD aluminum foil.
I check in several areas of the thickest part of the brisket 'FLAT'. The probe should go in with just an ever so slight bit of resistance. If it goes in with no resistance you're past the slicable without falling apart stage.
Dave Hutson
TVWBB Super Fan
What Larry Said!
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
I check the center of the flat, from the top, in a couple spots. No need to poke all over.
I don't agree that going to the no-resistance point automatically equals falling apart brisket (which I dislike) and the briskets I cook don't fall apart. But this is likely more because I'm not into the multi-hour rest/residual cooking thing. Juices redistribute in less than 30 min if the heat is mellowing so I simply rest that long, tented only, and thus don't get the fall-apart finish because little residual cooking occurs.
I don't agree that going to the no-resistance point automatically equals falling apart brisket (which I dislike) and the briskets I cook don't fall apart. But this is likely more because I'm not into the multi-hour rest/residual cooking thing. Juices redistribute in less than 30 min if the heat is mellowing so I simply rest that long, tented only, and thus don't get the fall-apart finish because little residual cooking occurs.
Shawn W
TVWBB Emerald Member
I'm not Dave either but Larry got away with it so I can too. For cooking purposes, you're putting foil on it because it is a much better heat conductor than air. So leaving an air gap inside kinda defeats the purpose. If it's closed up and loose you will still get some benefit of improved heat transfer from steam which is better than air but not as good as foil. Closed up and tightly wrapped is what you want. I use two layers of HD foil too.