Why doesn't brisket internal temp matter?


 
Originally posted by K Kruger:
I check the center of the flat, from the top, in a couple spots. No need to poke all over.

I don't agree that going to the no-resistance point automatically equals falling apart brisket (which I dislike) and the briskets I cook don't fall apart. But this is likely more because I'm not into the multi-hour rest/residual cooking thing. Juices redistribute in less than 30 min if the heat is mellowing so I simply rest that long, tented only, and thus don't get the fall-apart finish because little residual cooking occurs.
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I guess "falling apart" is too generalized a term. It paints a picture of a brisket that is like shredded beef siting on a plate. I mean "very tender" beef that sometimes is difficult to slice in whole width pieces.
 
Well, I don't wrap tightly nor do I use two sheets. (I'd consider wrapping tightly for flat but I don't cook flats.) I leave a space of .5- to 1-inch around the sides of the packers I do and more than that between the top of the brisket and the foil above. Packers throw off so much in the way of juices that heat transfer efficiency is not at all a problem. What can be, though, is losing juices through the foil seams and having the foil tight makes this more of a possibility as the juices are more able to be forced out if the foil is tight. If the size brisket one is cooking allows you to tightly fit the foil and position the seams high enough (like well above the brisket) so you don't have to worry about juices being forced out, then tight can certaonly work.

I usually get upwards of 2.5-3 cups of juices and, with long, wide briskets, can't really foil tightly without the seams being (what appears to me to be) too low around the meat, so I leave some space for the juices to envelope the meat during cooking.
 
I mean "very tender" beef that sometimes is difficult to slice in whole width pieces.
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Gotcha.

I like briskets that slice as one would want for a comp (though I don't compete): slices are intact, one can pick them up individually without any falling apart; holding each end and gently tugging will cause them to separate.
 
I can't imagin actually wrapping a brisket or butt with foil pulled taught ... compressed crinkled along all surfaces is more what I meant. It ends up expanding like a jiffy pop pouch to accomodate the juice.

I use two just in case the inside one leaks. Despite care some piece of bark often seems to make it's way through the first one and sometimes through both.
 
Originally posted by Shawn W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you wrap it loosely and/or build a tent to let the air still get around the meat or do you wrap it tightly. If tightly, how many layers of foil?
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I'm not Dave either but Larry got away with it so I can too. For cooking purposes, you're putting foil on it because it is a much better heat conductor than air. So leaving an air gap inside kinda defeats the purpose. If it's closed up and loose you will still get some benefit of improved heat transfer from steam which is better than air but not as good as foil. Closed up and tightly wrapped is what you want. I use two layers of HD foil too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quick correction. I'm no engineer, but from what I've researched, foiling has nothing to do with it being a better conductor of heat (although this is true). In fact, foil will prevent most (~95%) of the heat from your fire from reaching the food inside it, because most of the heat transfer in bbq is by way of convection (and not conduction - even when grilling, most of the heat transfer comes by way of radiation), and the reflective foil will effectively "foil" your convection and radiation. Especially when you use multiple layers of foil, the radiant heat from your fire will be almost totally negated. Of course some heat will pass through by way of conduction, but that's only about 5% of the heat coming from the fire, because it must pass through air to get to your foil/food, and air is one of the worst conductors of heat. (The main time you cook with conduction is when searing - the meat is directly in contact with the grates and thereby conduction will very effectively transfer the heat from the grates for a great sear.)

I think instead the point of the foil is really to keep the heat emanating from the food from leaving the general vicinity of the food, and instead to have that heat stay put and help cook the food. What you're really doing is eliminating the conduction and convection of your fire, and instead cooking mainly by the radiation given off from your food. While the internal temp of the food may be much cooler than your fire, this this is still effective because you're now cooking by way of radiation, a much more effective heat transfer process.

This is also why wrapping food in foil helps cook, even once the meat is out of the smoker. It's also the same reason that foil does a great job blocking direct heat - when you want a more indirect cook, if you block your coals (or gas fire) with foil, you'll effectively be cooking exclusively by convection (i.e. the equivalent of a convection oven, just with smoke).

Here now is some pure speculation: since when you wrap in foil you're essentially just blocking the radiant heat from leaving your food, it might not hurt very much to leave some air space within the food and the foil, as it will be reflected by the foil right back at your food.

Sorry for the long post, but it's useful info.
 
Some heat is reflected, certainly, but aluminum transfers as well. Foil works to speed cooking because it traps moisture. Quite true that foiling later during the cook also traps heat. Moisture transfers heat much, much more efficiently than does dry air, thus the more rapid (and more even) cooking that occurs once the meat is foiled.
 
Quite correct - that's a good point - the moisture trapped inside the foil can now cook through conduction as water does an amazing job conducting heat.
 
This is not so much heat from the fire, but rather mostly heat from inside the foil packet
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I don't really buy that. Heat transfers through the aluminum though perhaps not immediately very quickly. Just like when one reheats something from a cold state, wrapped in foil, in the oven. It does take a little while to get going--but works just fine.
 
You're right - I edited my post. The reason it takes a while to get going is because you're losing most all your radiant heat, but you're right, there still is convection and conduction.

Edit: Here is amazing website that explains the ways heat transfers, and has lots of easy to understand case studies too. http://www.radiantbarrier.com/physics-of-foil.htm
 
In fact, foil will prevent most (~95%) of the heat from your fire from reaching the food inside it
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??? If you foil a brisket (from the start) in the smoker at 250 are you saying that brisket will only get to 12.5* (5% of 250)?
... and instead cooking mainly by the radiation given off from your food
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Your food starts off at room temp at best; it doesn't generate its own heat.
This is also why wrapping food in foil helps cook, even once the meat is out of the smoker.
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Foiling holds in the moisture which creates a denser atmosphere which cooks faster. As McGee points out in his book, one can place his hand in a 350* oven and not get burned, but the same isn't true of putting your hand in a pot of boiling water even though the temp is 138* cooler. Once food is taken away from the heat source, foil insulates from the colder outside air. IMO, this is retarding the cooling process, rather than assisting in the cooking process; but that may be splitting hairs.

Heat definitely travels through foil. Most metals conduct heat very well.

Paul
 
Originally posted by Dave Hutson:
You are basically foiling to trap the otherwise lost moisture and braise the meat in it.
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I like that description .... succinct.
 
im probably the only one laughing here at 3:51 mountain time after reading this but thats just how my sense of humor is i guess.
 
Originally posted by Pinny B.:
SNIP
This is also why wrapping food in foil helps cook, even once the meat is out of the smoker. It's also the same reason that foil does a great job blocking direct heat - when you want a more indirect cook, if you block your coals (or gas fire) with foil, you'll effectively be cooking exclusively by convection (i.e. the equivalent of a convection oven, just with smoke).

Here now is some pure speculation: since when you wrap in foil you're essentially just blocking the radiant heat from leaving your food, it might not hurt very much to leave some air space within the food and the foil, as it will be reflected by the foil right back at your food.

Sorry for the long post, but it's useful info.
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With foil, you are braising. See: Braising.

Also, don't forget the "Latent Heat Of Steam".

###
 
Basically what I've learned from this post is.

#1. You need a ruler in order to foil wrap a brisket....

#2. 2 Sheets of foil is excessive.

#3. Packers are not as efficient as flats.

#4. If you wrap your foil too tight you will lose all the juice.

#5. Long/wide briskets produce ALOT of juice.

#6. People will post just to disagree with another post that differs from theirs.

I'm all for people speaking their opinions and sharing their different methods of cooking (which I TRY to do here) But I'll speak for myself, I'm tired of there only being one 'Voice' here that is ALWAYS right. I'm tired of THAT VOICE always talking down to other opinions or contradicting another method of cooking.......

Share your opinion, but realize your opinion is not always better or correct.

PEOPLE we're making BBQ not an artificial heart.... if you measure, CARE or even worse if you KNOW how much distance there is between your meat and the foil you should be locked up BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS.

I'm just thinking out loud.......
icon_rolleyes.gif


I am sorry if I offend anyone here. But on many occassions, I have made a suggestion or another member has made a suggestion only to be overrun by a 'Guru' with some scientific BS NOVEL like post. Don't get me wrong, the knowledge is definitely there........ON BOTH POSTS .........whether it be in a post with 5 words or a post with 5 paragraphs..

My point is, I respect the knowledge that is shared here by ALL. However, I feel that alot of posts are disregarded if they are not explained to the point 'Rainman' could understand them. Or they are over run by such post.

I have learned ALOT from this forum and I like to feel I have taught alot on this forum. Both done so by MANY people, not just ONE.
 
"Overrun by a 'Guru'"? Oh, please. It is rather obvious that you are speaking of me, Larry, but where in posts did I say (or even imply) anyone else was wrong? --or that my way was the only way? I simply stated the way that I do things and why I choose to do them the way I do. Where did I say (or imply) that my opinion was 'better or correct'?

Just thinking out loud: I can't help that you read into my posts 'talking down' tones and implications that are neither there nor intended.
 
Here are a couple examples of you contradicting me word per word.

Originally posted by Larry Wolfe:
Well I'm not Dave, but will put in my .02. I like to tightly wrap the briskets in a double layer of HD aluminum foil.


I check in several areas of the thickest part of the brisket 'FLAT'. The probe should go in with just an ever so slight bit of resistance. If it goes in with no resistance you're past the slicable without falling apart stage.
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Originally posted by K Kruger:
I check the center of the flat, from the top, in a couple spots. No need to poke all over.

I don't agree that going to the no-resistance point automatically equals falling apart brisket (which I dislike) and the briskets I cook don't fall apart. But this is likely more because I'm not into the multi-hour rest/residual cooking thing. Juices redistribute in less than 30 min if the heat is mellowing so I simply rest that long, tented only, and thus don't get the fall-apart finish because little residual cooking occurs.
Click to expand...

Originally posted by K Kruger:
Well, I don't wrap tightly nor do I use two sheets. (I'd consider wrapping tightly for flat but I don't cook flats.) I leave a space of .5- to 1-inch around the sides of the packers I do and more than that between the top of the brisket and the foil above. Packers throw off so much in the way of juices that heat transfer efficiency is not at all a problem. What can be, though, is losing juices through the foil seams and having the foil tight makes this more of a possibility as the juices are more able to be forced out if the foil is tight. If the size brisket one is cooking allows you to tightly fit the foil and position the seams high enough (like well above the brisket) so you don't have to worry about juices being forced out, then tight can certaonly work.

I usually get upwards of 2.5-3 cups of juices and, with long, wide briskets, can't really foil tightly without the seams being (what appears to me to be) too low around the meat, so I leave some space for the juices to envelope the meat during cooking.
Click to expand...
 
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