Why doesn't brisket internal temp matter?


 
P

Pinny

TVWBB Super Fan
I know with cooking things like chicken and steaks that the internal temp is crucial. A steak for example consistently gets less juicy as the internal temp rises. Same deal with chicken. Is this also the case with brisket? If so, why does everyone say to ignore the internal temp of brisket?

Thanks,
Pinny
 
Originally posted by Pinny B.:
I know with cooking things like chicken and steaks that the internal temp is crucial. A steak for example consistently gets less juicy as the internal temp rises. Same deal with chicken. Is this also the case with brisket? If so, why does everyone say to ignore the internal temp of brisket?
Thanks,
Pinny
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Because your cooking to just tender, verses cooking to a desired doneness. A steak, chicken, pork chops, burgers, etc. doesn't have all the conective tissue and collagen that needs to be broken down over time like a pork butt, shoulder, brisket chuck roll etc. has. The later needs to be cooked to tender, verses the former being cook to your preference of doneness without drying the meat out. HTH
 
And just to add; the long cook time required to render the collagen without overcooking the meat assures you that its going to be done at a safe temp.

I personaly feel that too many people cook to a number, not to a desired doneness out of fear of tainted meat. You wouldn't eat a brisket that was cooked only to 145 ( at least you wouldn't enjoy it) so temp is not really an issue.
 
Originally posted by Tom Chips:
I personaly feel that too many people cook to a number, not to a desired doneness out of fear of tainted meat. You wouldn't eat a brisket that was cooked only to 145 ( at least you wouldn't enjoy it) so temp is not really an issue.
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Yeah Tom, I was going to add that while you could cook ribs to 142º and try to eat them. Although they would be safe to eat, but very dry and tough as HE!!, and almost impossible to chew let alone swallow. Safe to eat yes, good no, not at all.
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Hi Pinny,

More over, there are many variables to cooking to tender. Here is a quick list of some things that influence when a piece of meat is cooked to tender:

Pedigree of the animal.
Age of the animal.
What the animal was fed.

Size and shape of the meat.

Cooking conditions.

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I am not certain I understand the line of logic going on here!
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While temperature is meaningless on a brisket for "safe" consumption, it is probably more critical to monitor temps on brisket than ANY other meat to determine doneness! I have probably cooked over 500 briskets and I would not even consider doing it without regard for internal temps. The difference in texture between 180 and 195 degrees internal is HUGE!!!!! I'll never forget the first brisket I cooked (on a Brinkmann Smoke N Grill electric in November) . I cooked it 1.5 hours per lb, just like the Smoke and Spice book recommended ,and took it off the smoker. While my family smiled as they gnawed that "mudflap" down, I knew it was garbage! I foil at 160, and pull at 195-205 . You will have a tender, juicy brisket that is perfection at these temps everytime. IMHO> Woodman
 
Originally posted by Dave Hutson:
I am not certain I understand the line of logic going on here!
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While temperature is meaningless on a brisket for "safe" consumption, it is probably more critical to monitor temps on brisket than ANY other meat to determine doneness! I have probably cooked over 500 briskets and I would not even consider doing it without regard for internal temps. The difference in texture between 180 and 195 degrees internal is HUGE!!!!! I'll never forget the first brisket I cooked (on a Brinkmann Smoke N Grill electric in November) . I cooked it 1.5 hours per lb, just like the Smoke and Spice book recommended ,and took it off the smoker. While my family smiled as they gnawed that "mudflap" down, I knew it was garbage! I foil at 160, and pull at 195-205 . You will have a tender, juicy brisket that is perfection at these temps everytime. IMHO> Woodman
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This is why bbq is great, a million ways to get to the same end result. I've never temped a brisket, and my results are excellent every time. I cook until the brisket is tender, and that's when its done for me, couldn't even tell you what the temp is.
 
How do you know when that occurs? Alot of folks say "I can feel it." I guess that works well for one brisket, but try doing 20 by "feel"! I am not certain I understand why one wouldn't want to be certain by checking temp?
 
While temperature is meaningless on a brisket for "safe" consumption, it is probably more critical to monitor temps on brisket than ANY other meat to determine doneness!
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No, it isn't, though it might be for you (and others) depending on whether the briskets you cook are fairly consistent in terms of grade and thickness, and if the cooking approach is fairly consistent as well.

A temp can certainly correlate with 'done' but it doesn't cause it. Time relative to temp relative to meat size/grade does, as does cooking technique, especially whether the meat is foiled as foiling changes the dynamics. Prime and Wagyu briskets cooked at typical low/slow temps would likely be very overdone at 195-205. High heat briskets can easily hit 190-200 degrees 10 min after foiling--but they are far from done; the time is inadequate.

Comp cooks and caterers, especially, that buy meat of fairly consistent size and grade, often from the same seller, and who cook using a very consistent approach, often have no problems cooking to a specific temp rather than testing for done. But after years of cooking briskets from numerous sources, of varying quality and grades (or not graded), of various trim levels, using many different cooking approaches, and reaching tender at nearly every degree point from the low 180s to just over 200, it became very clear why brisket is the meat most new Qers struggle with--the vast majority of recipes/procedures/recommendations call for a specific internal temp.

For a while now I've recommended not bothering with monitoring internal temps for high heat briskets; for quite a while I've suggested that for low/slow briskets where the cook is monitoring or wants to monitor, starting to feel for tender in the mid- to upper-180s and then every so often thereafter. Feeling for tender is easy and something every cook should know anyway, imo. It also is foolproof. A specific temp often fails, and a range of temps--195-205 is a 10-degree spread--is often daunting for a newer cook and places too much focus, again, on internals being the cause of or the determinant of done, neither of which is true. Decoupling done from temp--imo--has done more to help newer cooks or those stuggling with briskets achieve success more than any other factor.
 
How do you know when that occurs? Alot of folks say "I can feel it." I guess that works well for one brisket, but try doing 20 by "feel"! I am not certain I understand why one wouldn't want to be certain by checking temp?
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AS Kevin wrote, temp alone does not equate tenderness. As far as doing 20 briskets at a time, I do about 55 at a time, 3 times a year. I don't monitor pit temps or meat temps. Some of that is just practice and knowing what the pit will do. But essentially, I'm checking for tenderness every time I flip or rotate the meat. Using a long gigging style fork , I can feel the degree of tenderness of each brisket. Works pretty well.

Paul
 
Well, who am I to argue with you guys, but I will say, that , as Kevin noted, I have been consistently cooking 6-8 lb choice or prime flats for 5 years now and I have never seen one acceptably "done" below 190 degrees. Cooking by "feel" does not tell you how far away you are from being "done" either. Instead of poking two holes into them each time with a gigging fork why not save half of that juice and use a thermometer? As for foiling, it is the best way to save the juices to pour back over the meat for serving. I guess it comes down to your preferred method, but I can see no downside or learning curve involved in using a temperature as an indicator of "done-ness."
 
Cooking by "feel" does not tell you how far away you are from being "done" either.
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It does. One gets quite used to how the meat feels as it progresses toward done, if you check it during the pre-done time. Over time, one gets quite used to the feel and becomes easy to tell if the brisket is 10 min shy or 30.

The 'downside' of temp, if you want to call it that, is that for many people it simply doesn't work. Hundreds of posts on this board alone testify to that. Remember, most cooks, especially new ones, are not cooking consistent meat with consistent methods. They are still finding their way, and many don't have purchase options; they have limited sources. Internal temp isn't a 'wrong' method, but for many it is just not very useful and they end up frustrated by their endeavors rather than pleased and motivated.
 
If temperature doesn't tell you the meat is done, what does it tell you? Can you say that the higher the internal temperature, the drier the meat will be? (In which case, that would explain why people like low and slow, as it lets you keep the meat "breaking down" on the fire for a long time without heating up - and thereby drying out - to fast.) The internal temperature must affect the meat somehow, right?
 
I think we are using "most sought after degree of tenderness" and "done" interchangeably here. it is generally accepted that beef in edible at a fairly low temp from raw to 140 degrees
 
So slightly different beast but my first few chuck rolls were to cooked to temp but didn't pull worth a damn. They weren't done enough though they had hit temp. the connective tissue was still mostly intact.

The flip side of cooking to a temp is overdone. Good to start checking for tender and remove according to your rest plan. Once it's 'done' if it continues to cook it will get dry and crumbly. So, again with different methods and meat it could be done sooner than expected temp. If you're cooking fairly low the time for it to move up even a couple of degrees could mean the difference between moist, tender and sliceable to dry and crumbly ... given the extra time at temp.

I'm one of those people who can't get consistent brisket. My last two, I asked for 2 10 - 12lbers, got a 14 and an 8. I got one that was 34" long because they left the plate on. I've gotten little 4 - 5 lb bald flats.

Having said all that I agree with 'done' rather than temp but it's not like I don't believe you or something Dave. It works great for you so that's fantastic! I only wish it was so easy for me to get brisket better yet to pick and choose what I get.

If temperature doesn't tell you the meat is done, what does it tell you? Can you say that the higher the internal temperature, the drier the meat will be? (In which case, that would explain why people like low and slow, as it lets you keep the meat "breaking down" on the fire for a long time without heating up - and thereby drying out - to fast.) The internal temperature must affect the meat somehow, right?
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Pinny, ya temp is significant but it doesn't necessarily equal tender. That's what people have been saying this whole thread.
 
In what way is it significant?
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During cooking it's common for people to foil after 160º ... this is when fat begins to rend.

Any time after about 180ºF it could be tender.

Why the insistance every piece of meat is exactly the same and responds exactly the same way to the same cooking conditions? It was a living being, not a piece of tofu from the tofu factory.

Age, diet, health, weight, fitness, stress level, pedigree, hydration levels, activity levels, anitbiotics, hormones, blue salt lick, red salt lick, no salt lick, drink from stagnant standing water, fresh mountin stream, drink from sulfury well water, hard water, soft water, slaughter, transport, holding, burtchering, packaging, aging .... all of those variables before you even get your hands on it.
 
Originally posted by Shawn W:
Why the insistance every piece of meat is exactly the same and responds exactly the same way to the same cooking conditions? .
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My insistance comes from the observation that , in my fairly extensive experience, they all have been the same in regards to them being perfectly done in the 195-205 range, and all being less than done below that! Again, I use choice, or prime in 6-8 lb flats. Now Kevin points out that Kobe, Waygu(sp?), and select cuts will vary. I can buy that concept. Select, will encompass the overworked muscle end of the spectrum from older cattle culled at the end of the season, and such, and the other two are the "underworked muscle" end of the spectrum. I find that the biggest variable from cut to cut (brisket AND pork) is the time it will take to reach the magical internal temps I site at a constant cooker temperature. My contention comes purely from experience. DH
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I understand the "its done when its done" concept but I lean towards agreeing with Dave on this one. If you are a new BBQer you should probe the brisket or pork so you wont keep taking the lid off of the smoker. Set it for 180 and check it. Too tough. 185 nope, not in my experience but you might judge tenderness different than I do. We like to see them wiggle like jello but if yer lookin, you aint cookin.
 
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