NG furnace vs modern heat pump

[Steve Hoch]

There is no damper or flue. Glass front is sealed. It has a pilot light that I shut off in spring with a standard gas Thermocouple like one would see on a hot water tank.

This is a direct vent with a special chimney duct. Center section is exhaust. Outer section is inlet.

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Those are nice. I had one in my previous home and really liked it. It goes on with the flip of a switch and and very little maintenance.

 

[LMichaels]

Those are nice. I had one in my previous home and really liked it. It goes on with the flip of a switch and and very little maintenance.

Yep, mine has no damper. looks like a regular fireplace, but the appearance disguises an 85% efficient heating appliance, that is fully sealed, uses no inside air and leaves no smoke or ash, turns on with the click of a remote control. We had a power outage that went on for a few hours on a pretty cold night not long ago. It did the job

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

There is no added ducting. The fan is built in pulls cool air from the floor and moves it out the top.

The efficiency is the combustion air is pulled down from the top of the chimney, and is warmed by the exhaust air going up. The benefits are two fold with the biggest benefit being the combustion air is not coming from inside the house. When that happens cold air is pulled in from air leaks which are everywhere. The other benefit is the combustion air is warmer coming into to feed the fire so it needs less fuel to keep things hot.

What I like best is if someone is a little cold they have a warm place to go to warm up vs jacking up the thermostat.

I saw this diagram at the bottom of the page you linked.

 

[Kevin L (NKY)]

The wife and I built a home in 1999, after viewing and walking through a tin of new hones we copied and took notes on our likes, and older gentleman mentioned research your builders and get the most efficiency you can afford as utilty bill will only go up.
So when designed our house, it had 2x6 walls,spray foam insulation, high E rated windows and doors, insulated garage, and R44 attic insulation. It was tight and cozy. 1850 st ft ranch with a walk out basement.
Split gas and electric in NKY.
Replaced the HVAC system in 2012 with a NG system variable tonnage and two stage DC fan dropped our bills by close to a third.

 

[Brett-EDH]

first proposal came back.

that sound you heard was me falling down.

two Bosch IDS 2.0 systems, one a 3T and the other a 4T, fully installed, electrical work, permits and testing/report..... $34,000.

that's right, $34,000.

<drops dead from heart attack>

now i'll gather another 10 proposals seeing that I'll have to wade through a lot of BS to find a reasonable install cost, should i even pull trigger this season. or maybe i'll just wait this out until my current units blow up from use.

 

[DanHoo]

I saw this diagram at the bottom of the page you linked.
View attachment 66161

That looks cool. I don't have that.

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

That looks cool. I don't have that.

Awesome little drawing there though, eh?

 

[Ed P]

first proposal came back.

that sound you heard was me falling down.

two Bosch IDS 2.0 systems, one a 3T and the other a 4T, fully installed, electrical work, permits and testing/report..... $34,000.

that's right, $34,000.

<drops dead from heart attack>

now i'll gather another 10 proposals seeing that I'll have to wade through a lot of BS to find a reasonable install cost, should i even pull trigger this season. or maybe i'll just wait this out until my current units blow up from use.

Really, that's to be expected, according to what I found. I priced a new system almost 10 years ago and a 4T 14SEER system came in at $13.5k. We finally bit the bullet and had it done last year with a 4T 16SEER two-stage system (gas furnace) for $14.5k. As the summers get hotter, as supply chain issues, as increasing tensions between world gov'ts and our national and state gov't regulation gets increasingly involved, I don't expect to see prices coming down much, especially with NG getting such a bad rap these days.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

first proposal came back.

that sound you heard was me falling down.

two Bosch IDS 2.0 systems, one a 3T and the other a 4T, fully installed, electrical work, permits and testing/report..... $34,000.

that's right, $34,000.

<drops dead from heart attack>

now i'll gather another 10 proposals seeing that I'll have to wade through a lot of BS to find a reasonable install cost, should i even pull trigger this season. or maybe i'll just wait this out until my current units blow up from use.

Wait till your unit blows up even then there is no ROI at that price absurd maybe no ROI for 10k less. So assume your 345 month less or more certain times a year does that 34k system knock it down to 310 no idea by the way long way to go. Even then might be hard to live long enough to recoup that but you might be more comfortable and there is a price for that. I kind of chuckled when you said let the house get down to 78 degrees AC in the summer ain't happening in my house in ATL thats part of living in the South as opposed to living in Boston where I came from, your AC bill down here becomes your Heating Bill up there. Too old to freeze to death nor sweat to death, it is what it is.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

Really, that's to be expected, according to what I found. I priced a new system almost 10 years ago and a 4T 14SEER system came in at $13.5k. We finally bit the bullet and had it done last year with a 4T 16SEER two-stage system (gas furnace) for $14.5k. As the summers get hotter, as supply chain issues, as increasing tensions between world gov'ts and our national and state gov't regulation gets increasingly involved, I don't expect to see prices coming down much, especially with NG getting such a bad rap these days.

Ed no offense 34k is to be expected? I have never heard of anyone over the years who spent 34k for a heating/AC system and that would include any new house built today and my brother in law is a builder but I don't live in Cali.

 

[Brett-EDH]

Wait till your unit blows up even then there is no ROI at that price absurd maybe no ROI for 10k less. So assume your 345 month less or more certain times a year does that 34k system knock it down to 310 no idea by the way long way to go. Even then might be hard to live long enough to recoup that but you might be more comfortable and there is a price for that. I kind of chuckled when you said let the house get down to 78 degrees AC in the summer ain't happening in my house in ATL thats part of living in the South as opposed to living in Boston where I came from, your AC bill down here becomes your Heating Bill up there. Too old to freeze to death nor sweat to death, it is what it is.

Summer humidity is 20%. Dry AF. The warmth feels good. AC at 78° when it’s 100°+ outside is a huge temp difference. Growing up in NY and the AC was 68°. Loved it then. Would die at that temp now.

There’s a reason they call it Hotlanta. I get it. And your humidity is harsh.

Ima leaning towards letting my current system run till it dies. I’ll invest that 34k and in a few years it’ll be 50-60k. My unit will then be “free.”

I am going to bid the job so I do have a backup plan. Two systems installed is worth about 22-25 to me. That’s a fair profit, IMO. Then rebates off of that number.

 

[Brett-EDH]

Ed no offense 34k is to be expected? I have never heard of anyone over the years who spent 34k for a heating/AC system and that would include any new house built today and my brother in law is a builder but I don't live in Cali.

Note, it’s two systems. No one unit.

 

[Ed P]

My experience is, if you drive all the profit out of a job for somebody, corners will be cut. If you want to find the lowest bidder, that's fine, but people have to earn a living and reputable companies will give you a fair price. Also, you have all the accoutrements that spell affluence so...

My job was done by an ex-neighbor who started his own HVAC company. He has done several houses in our neighborhood. I paid him a fair price and he had 5 people on the job for a full day (we upgraded the ductwork) and he came back the next day to do me a favor in the attic. I paid cash which was a little sketchy for me...I withdrew the money at the bank and he stuffed it in his pocket and walked out. I'm not going anywhere with that much cash.

 

[Brett-EDH]

My experience is, if you drive all the profit out of a job for somebody, corners will be cut. If you want to find the lowest bidder, that's fine, but people have to earn a living and reputable companies will give you a fair price. Also, you have all the accoutrements that spell affluence so...

My job was done by an ex-neighbor who started his own HVAC company. He has done several houses in our neighborhood. I paid him a fair price and he had 5 people on the job for a full day (we upgraded the ductwork) and he came back the next day to do me a favor in the attic. I paid cash which was a little sketchy for me...I withdrew the money at the bank and he stuffed it in his pocket and walked out. I'm not going anywhere with that much cash.

Units cost: $12k
4 people, 6-8 hours work $4k
Recycle old parts and remove refrigerant $500
New electrical run $1000
Extra parts and special work $2k
Boss man’s profit and overhead 15% (on $19,500 above) $2925
Cost pre tax $22,425

My budget is 22-24k plus tax.

I struggle to see paying an additional $12k or $10k in profits. Or even $8k more in profit.

Run a better business or don’t get the deal.

I’m all about a fair price and reasonable price. This is a one day job for 4 people 30 work hours.

If boss man can’t run his business on $45k profit a month (3k profit in 15 work days a month) or 26 days at $1500 profit, 39k a month, then choose a different business.

I own and operate a business and while it’d be nice to clear $25 or 30k a month, I don’t.

And their website shows more than 4 employees so I’m sure they’re banging more money than my math per month.

In my business, I’m a conduit of referrals. I sent my roofer 7 jobs in January. And I never accept a kickback. Ever. A job well done at a reasonable price will earn more over time than any one single job. That’s a fact. That’s how successful businesses are run. I haven’t had to advertise in 10 years now. All referral based.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

Brett, I assumed 2 systems I have 2 also with my finished basement electronically zoned off the unit that runs the first floor. I have a shop in the basement so its not entirely finished but most of it is. The basement does not use much ac in the summer it does use heat in the winter. We run our AC at about 74 in the summer and we are comfortable, I need a sweat shirt when I go over to my neighbors house they run it at 68.

 

[LMichaels]

One thing weird I noticed when we had our new system installed about our basement. When I had the old system it was a regular old MAYBE 70% system. Run up through galvanized exhaust flue. It ran a lot (constant on/off on /off rapid cycling) due to being a bit too much BTU for the house. So it kept the basement warmer than upstairs in the winter. Now in winter due to the differences in the systems the basement is much cooler than the house. Very interesting turn