NG furnace vs modern heat pump

[Brett-EDH]

$0.3279 kWh 5pm to 9pm |$0.1864 9pm to midnight

5p-8p is peak rate, then 8p till midnight (mid-peak rate)

 

[DanHoo]

i'm not looking at ROI solely. ROI is nice but one needs heating and cooling, regardless. if I have to make one major repair of either unit currently installed I could be looking at $500-$2k in expenses over the next 24 mos. and that, call it $2k for a system failure of some sort, doesn't get me a new system, but just repairs on a very old and inefficient system.

This is definitely my concern and at a minimum I want to have a system pre-selected to replace my current system should said failure occur that is not quick and cost effective to repair.

i'd rather get this done before the summer season starts here.

I'm on the fence for timing. Right now a failure would be my main driver.

 

[Brett-EDH]

For NG, I have the gas fireplace, furnace, hot water heater, clothes dryer and gas cooktop and I used 118 Therms, and looking at summer gas usage I'd say about 20 therms per month is hot water, dryer and cooktop.

i have a NG fireplace that is brand new, never used. i just couldn't see lighting a fire in it to burn gas.

i looked at my non-winter NG use and we average 1 to 1.1 therms a day in non-heating season. that would cover hot water, clothes dryer and cooktop. we wear heavier clothes in the winter which uses the dryer. we wear more athletic wear in the summer which is air dry and never hits the dryer so we actually use the dryer less in the warmer months.

i am also projecting that i can precool my home in peak summer heat to get the home down to 74F when costs are least for electricity and then let the system coast to 78/79F as the day progresses after 430P, approaching peak rates. overnight the whole house fan (WHF) can get the home to 62/63/64 in the overnights. the WHF costs around $0.12 per hour to run, IIRC.

 

[LMichaels]

i have a NG fireplace that is brand new, never used. i just couldn't see lighting a fire in it to burn gas.

Would you feel better if it burned wood? Fuel is fuel. Fireplaces are more for ambience than much else unless you have one like mine which is actually made to be a heat generating appliance designed to function as a backup in a power failure

 

[DanHoo]

i have a NG fireplace that is brand new, never used. i just couldn't see lighting a fire in it to burn gas.

Mine looks like a fireplace, but it is a high efficiency gas furnace. It has a pilot light and is controlled by a thermostat on the wall. I has a circulation fan built in that runs on 110v, but the fireplace will run and generate heat without any electricity.

The model I have is no longer made, but is pretty close to this one.

P36 Medium Traditional Gas Fireplaces | Regency

Our most popular traditional gas fireplace. The P36 is as versatile as it is beautiful - efficiently heat both small and large rooms.

www.regency-fire.com

 

[Brett-EDH]

Would you feel better if it burned wood? Fuel is fuel. Fireplaces are more for ambience than much else unless you have one like mine which is actually made to be a heat generating appliance designed to function as a backup in a power failure

negative. i am not a fan of fireplaces. didn't grow up with one. don't really see the value of one. no desire to have to clean one more thing in my life.

 

[Ed P]

I'm not sure if this applies to you two up north but our utility down south, SoCal Edison, is seeking a 4.4% increase in electrical rates because of the increase in the cost of NG.

Source:

Higher power bills likely headed for Southern California

As if extraordinarily high natural gas prices weren’t bad enough, Californians might need to brace for higher electricity bills this summer. Southern California Edison is seeking to increase rates …

ktla.com

 

[Brett-EDH]

I'm not sure if this applies to you two up north but our utility down south, SoCal Edison, is seeking a 4.4% increase in electrical rates because of the increase in the cost of NG.

Source:

Higher power bills likely headed for Southern California

As if extraordinarily high natural gas prices weren’t bad enough, Californians might need to brace for higher electricity bills this summer. Southern California Edison is seeking to increase rates …

ktla.com

i shared a video on NG pricing recently. idk if you had a chance to watch it. CA is kinda hosed on utility rates for the foreseeable future.

this one: https://tvwbb.com/threads/ng-furnace-vs-modern-heat-pump.93951/post-1082430

 

[Ed P]

Also, with the increasing demand caused by EVs, Electrify America is raising its rates for the charging stations across America.

Source:

Electrify America is increasing prices at its DC fast charging stations

Electrify America is increasing its standard rate to 48 cents per kWh starting Match 6th.

www.theverge.com

 

[Ed P]

i shared a video on NG pricing recently. idk if you had a chance to watch it. CA is kinda hosed on utility rates for the foreseeable future.

this one: https://tvwbb.com/threads/ng-furnace-vs-modern-heat-pump.93951/post-1082430

I think I started to watch it, but I tend to lose interest with things that are beyond my immediate control. When the guy misquoted 2021 as the year Russia started the war in Ukraine (3:37 in), that destroyed his credibility for me.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

I'm not sure if this applies to you two up north but our utility down south, SoCal Edison, is seeking a 4.4% increase in electrical rates because of the increase in the cost of NG.

Source:

Higher power bills likely headed for Southern California

As if extraordinarily high natural gas prices weren’t bad enough, Californians might need to brace for higher electricity bills this summer. Southern California Edison is seeking to increase rates …

ktla.com

Interesting since NG prices have crashed the last few months.

Natural gas prices drop. Will electric prices follow? - Poynter

But gasoline and diesel prices are rising again and diesel users are still getting pounded by high prices. And more.

www.poynter.org

 

[Ed P]

Interesting since NG prices have crashed the last few months.

Natural gas prices drop. Will electric prices follow? - Poynter

But gasoline and diesel prices are rising again and diesel users are still getting pounded by high prices. And more.

www.poynter.org

It's a for-profit public utility held by private investors (IOU, Investor Owned Utility). Windfall profits are very much part of the game, as evidenced by recent Shell and Exxon reports.

 

[Brett-EDH]

Interesting since NG prices have crashed the last few months.

Natural gas prices drop. Will electric prices follow? - Poynter

But gasoline and diesel prices are rising again and diesel users are still getting pounded by high prices. And more.

www.poynter.org

unfortunately, our state is like a nation and in a bit of disarray. i'll stop here to avoid the censure popo.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

Jan 18 2023 bill - 122 therms, temps were 48F / H66F / L 28F - $345.65 - 4 people

So maybe my math is bad so does this work out to you paying 2.83 a therm or am I missing something?

We are deregulated in NG in GA so we have multiple marketeers mine is Scana. My 1 year deal is up end of March this year good timing, always go for at least 1 year will probably go 2 years this time. So I was locked in at 59.9 a therm, from 12-16 to 1-18 which included an artic blast where we got down to 9 degrees for a few days worse for the wind chill there is also a pipeline charge.

January Charges Natural Gas Consumption Charge: 220.8 Therms × $0.6990 $154.34 Discount Customer Appreciation: 220.8 Therms × ($0.1000) ($22.08) Customer Service Charge $6.95 AGL PassThrough Charge $69.84 Discount Paperless and Recurring Payment ($1.00) State and Local Taxes $12.48 Total Monthly Charges $220.53

Now if you had a floating rate even down here you would have been murdered for what you used. They have to post every month the rates from the marketeers for Feb you can get 69.9 for one year same price for 2 but after the blast our weather turned the opposite way to the warm side which happened to alot of the country. I have to renew end of March with any luck will get to 59.9 hard to say if it gets there will sign up for 2 years, even at 69.9 I probably would. That bill was the high for the year so far the month before it was 172. Probably gonna drop to that or lower with the next bill. Been in the high 60's for a few days but looks like our weather has started to turn for the good still means some days in the 40's but more in the mid 60's.

 

[Brett-EDH]

So maybe my math is bad so does this work out to you paying 2.83 a therm or am I missing something?

We are deregulated in NG in GA so we have multiple marketeers mine is Scana. My 1 year deal is up end of March this year good timing, always go for at least 1 year will probably go 2 years this time. So I was locked in at 59.9 a therm, from 12-16 to 1-18 which included an artic blast where we got down to 9 degrees for a few days worse for the wind chill there is also a pipeline charge.

January Charges Natural Gas Consumption Charge: 220.8 Therms × $0.6990 $154.34 Discount Customer Appreciation: 220.8 Therms × ($0.1000) ($22.08) Customer Service Charge $6.95 AGL PassThrough Charge $69.84 Discount Paperless and Recurring Payment ($1.00) State and Local Taxes $12.48 Total Monthly Charges $220.53

Now if you had a floating rate even down here you would have been murdered for what you used. They have to post every month the rates from the marketeers for Feb you can get 69.9 for one year same price for 2 but after the blast our weather turned the opposite way to the warm side which happened to alot of the country. I have to renew end of March with any luck will get to 59.9 hard to say if it gets there will sign up for 2 years, even at 69.9 I probably would. That bill was the high for the year so far the month before it was 172. Probably gonna drop to that or lower with the next bill. Been in the high 60's for a few days but looks like our weather has started to turn for the good still means some days in the 40's but more in the mid 60's.

NG situation:







This is the electrical situation:



the anomaly in this chart is in Jan-Apr of 2022 my dad was at my home and using a space heater which drove my electrical bill higher than usual. average winter electric bill should have been around $75 a month, versus the actual of $120 or so we experienced.

my average summer cooling costs run around $214 per month across 5 months. the spikes go above that mark usually for Jul, Aug and Sep, which are our hottest months by far.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

Yikes, although where I used to live in the Boston area don't think they are far off from what you are paying. Not really sure see if someone from MA chimes in. I don't see the ROI for a heat pump down here do to the cost of NG my 2 systems are about 8 years old had to put a coil in one of them last year costs me $2500 for AC but its got a 5 year warranty was kind of pissed but it is what it is.

I have a gas furnace, dual fuel stove and gas water heater.

 

[Jay D in Jersey]

Mine looks like a fireplace, but it is a high efficiency gas furnace. It has a pilot light and is controlled by a thermostat on the wall. I has a circulation fan built in that runs on 110v, but the fireplace will run and generate heat without any electricity.

The model I have is no longer made, but is pretty close to this one.

P36 Medium Traditional Gas Fireplaces | Regency

Our most popular traditional gas fireplace. The P36 is as versatile as it is beautiful - efficiently heat both small and large rooms.

www.regency-fire.com

Interesting. Have not seen one that connects to a duct system.

 

[DanHoo]

Interesting. Have not seen one that connects to a duct system.

There is no added ducting. The fan is built in pulls cool air from the floor and moves it out the top.

The efficiency is the combustion air is pulled down from the top of the chimney, and is warmed by the exhaust air going up. The benefits are two fold with the biggest benefit being the combustion air is not coming from inside the house. When that happens cold air is pulled in from air leaks which are everywhere. The other benefit is the combustion air is warmer coming into to feed the fire so it needs less fuel to keep things hot.

What I like best is if someone is a little cold they have a warm place to go to warm up vs jacking up the thermostat.

 

[Brian B Atlanta]

There is no added ducting. The fan is built in pulls cool air from the floor and moves it out the top.

The efficiency is the combustion air is pulled down from the top of the chimney, and is warmed by the exhaust air going up. The benefits are two fold with the biggest benefit being the combustion air is not coming from inside the house. When that happens cold air is pulled in from air leaks which are everywhere. The other benefit is the combustion air is warmer coming into to feed the fire so it needs less fuel to keep things hot.

What I like best is if someone is a little cold they have a warm place to go to warm up vs jacking up the thermostat.

Interesting so when it is not in use is actually automatically closing the flue? I assume it would have to.

 

[DanHoo]

Interesting so when it is not in use is actually automatically closing the flue? I assume it would have to.

There is no damper or flue. Glass front is sealed. It has a pilot light that I shut off in spring with a standard gas Thermocouple like one would see on a hot water tank.

This is a direct vent with a special chimney duct. Center section is exhaust. Outer section is inlet.

Benefits of Direct Vent Fireplaces | Regency Fireplace Products

Learn about a Direct Vent fireplace and its benefits compared to a B-Vent, Power Vent, or Vent Free fireplace.

www.regency-fire.com