New 2009 WSM - Built in thermometer is so "wrong"


 
When I used to smoke pork butts on my OTG all I ever used to measure temp was a six dollar deep fryer thermo in the top vent. That temp was always a little hotter than the grate temp as far as I could tell without measuring but it was fairly obvious. Results were always great! My first three cooks on the WSM I could clearly tell it was hotter at 225-250 than my OTG was when my vent temp read 225-250. I thought it was helpful to have others post measured numbers to confirm what was already obvious to me. My next smoke I ran my WSM 20-30 degrees cooler and had the same great results as always, it just burned less lump. No "crummy" BBQ here. I do however notice a little less smokey flavor on the WSM vs OTG. I have been using lots apple with a little hickory. I am getting the same smoke ring as always though. I am going to start using a ton of wood to try and get the same heavy smoke flavor I would get on my OTG.
 
Eric, what you say sounds good but there are some meats that don't do well with a lot of smoke.Chicken, fish and ribs to name a few. Now brisket and butts pour it on!!! Oh yeh, one other thing . Eventually you 'll get to the point where you can lay your hands on the dome and feel the right temp. Keri C. calls it the laying on of hands. She's right. After awhile you can feel when you get to the right temp or whether you're too hot or cool.
 
There's really two almost unrelated issues with temperature. One's a destination temperature of the meat, and one's the temperature of the oven (which I'm going to use as a generic term including the WSM). The trouble is when people try to combine those concepts.

For the temperature of the meat, some meats it's clearly more useful than others. For a steak you might hit a target temperature, you pull it, it's done. For a butt you might use it as a starting point to know when it's worth lifting the lid and doing tests. For ribs you might not use temperature at all, but you know at X time it's worth starting your tests to see if it's done.

The oven temperature affects the speed of the cook and how readily browning reactions happen at the surface. Often there's a tradeoff - very low and slow and you get a moist chicken but the skin is icky. Cook a prime rib too hot and you'll have the center and edge not at the same doneness. Too cold and you won't get browning. To fix this people have developed various searing techniques at the start or end of the cook.

But is 10 or 15 or 25 degrees important? Let us consider the chicken. Anywhere from, what, 200-300 degrees you're going to end up with a moist but icky skin chicken. Anywhere from 350-400 degrees probably somewhat less moist but great skin. Above there the skin gets nicer and nicer until you start burning something (you can do really hot chicken cooks in a convection oven because it's so even and no hot spot will cause problems). So we all agree temperature's important.... but that's a hundred degree range for that chicken. Yes, it takes different amount of time, and yes, you could figure out which was which if they were side by side. But either way - moist, juicy chicken with icky skin.

What gets you into trouble is when you start combining the two concepts. "The steak's done with four minutes on a side." Well, sure, you can do that, but your steaks had better be very consistent and your temperature had better be very consistent. Using the temperature of the meat fees you from the requirements of very precise temperature. Yes, cook temperature matters but it's over a large range. The 350 and 375 degree chickens just aren't going to be that different if they're pulled off at the same internal temperature.
 
Laying my hands on the dome and over the top vent is what made it obvious to that my WSM was cooking much hotter than my OTG. I noticed it first cook and should have stuck my cheap deep fryer thermo in the top vent to confirm. Again results have been great regardless, but I am adding more smoke wood every cook until I get the smoke flavor I am used to from my OTG. I have read here to be careful with the amount of smoke wood used so I was careful not to over-smoke on my first cooks with my WSM. I am about to go pick up a butt to brine in apple juice and salt to smoke tommorow. I havent ever really followed any reciepes or timetables, I just do what sounds good to me. So far so good.
 
Originally posted by Doug Wade:
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It's more forgiving to me. I prefer my roti chicken @ ~625F. Great skin, tender & juicy. I've tried 3 ranges low slow, med, & high.

My first & only brisket went high heat, 275-325, it came up fast, I foiled, & it was done ~4.25 hrs in.

Recipes are only suggested guidelines IMO.
 
Originally posted by Clint:

It's more forgiving to me. I prefer my roti chicken @ ~625F. Great skin, tender & juicy. I've tried 3 ranges low slow, med, & high.
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Very cool. That upper range is just one of those things you have to figure out with your gear, and keeping in mind that if you're using any kind of sugar you'll run into trouble sooner rather than later. But if I were writing it up in a recipe for somebody else I'd say 350 because I know they'll get a decent result and they can't get into too much trouble.

And then some poor guy's going to get all concerned because he's dialed in at 360 and the recipe said 350!
 
nice explanation Doug. unfortunately I think we scared the exact tempers away. Hopefully they know we're just trying to help
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Originally posted by j biesinger:
nice explanation Doug. unfortunately I think we scared the exact tempers away. Hopefully they know we're just trying to help
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Indeed we are. And it's good news, too. With other kinds of cooking you DO have to worry about this stuff. But meat's pretty robust and as long as you can maintain some kind of plausible temperature without fiddling with vents too much you can go spend your time doing other things, like sleeping!
 
Originally posted by j biesinger:
I'm just repeating something that helped me improve the bbq I produced on the wsm, which is...stop worrying about temps and stop following time and temp guidelines and start figuring out what done meat looks, feels, smells, tastes like and how to get there.
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j, nail hit on head.
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Meat is done when it's done, no matter the cooking temp. It's a feel for the meat that comes with time/experience. Once you learn what done meat looks and feels like, it's automatic.
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Originally posted by j biesinger:
nice explanation Doug. unfortunately I think we scared the exact tempers away. Hopefully they know we're just trying to help
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Nope, didn't scare me away, I was up in Big Bear with the family with no internet access. :)

And I'm not an "exact temper"... I am fully aware that a range of temperatures works for BBQ. Given a choice though, I will choose to cook my bbq at 235F (as read "at the lid" using a probe) than at 275F.

I still think you guys are missing my point. During my first few cooks, I saw temps of only 205F with all bottom vents open. I was concerned for two reasons... one was that I had enough heat to safely cook my meat and two was if my meat would finish in time for guests that were coming over. I guess I also wanted to know that there was nothing wrong with my brand new WSM. I posted up on here asking for help because of my low temps and was told I had damp charcoal. That info was incorrect.

The fact is, that the WSM lid temp is nowhere close to the "lid temps" that the recipes call for as measured with a probe through the top vent. Now, knowing (100% sure) that the WSM lid temp reads lower, I can relax and be totally content when the temps read 195F.

My thread was to show those with new 2009 WSMs that when you're targeting a certain temp (as called for in the BRITU recipe for example)... you cannot rely on the built-in thermo since it reads so differently from the method used by the recipe author. Please understand that the above is mutually exclusive of the "meat is done when it's done" responses.
 
First off, I don't know why you assume that in general recipes are based on a vent temperature, especially given how many people modified their smokers to add a thermometer at some random lid position. I just checked the BRITU recipe since you mention that specifically and I don't see any mention of where the temperatures were taken - it just says "cooker temp" in the version here, and on bbqsearch.com where the original is it says "If you don't have one, put a thermometer on your cooker". That sounds to me like installing a thermometer in the lid somewhere.

But if you're only seeing 205 with the built in thermometer with the vents open that IS odd. I run 250 with water and somewhere in the 300s without and from reading threads here that seems typical.
 
Originally posted by Doug Wade:
I just checked the BRITU recipe since you mention that specifically and I don't see any mention of where the temperatures were taken - it just says "cooker temp" in the version here, and on bbqsearch.com where the original is it says "If you don't have one, put a thermometer on your cooker". That sounds to me like installing a thermometer in the lid somewhere.

But if you're only seeing 205 with the built in thermometer with the vents open that IS odd.
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It states "lid temp" where he lists the time and temp in the chart below. And yes, this could be a probe permanently installed somewhere in the lid. Since the WSM thermometer does show 211F when tested in boiling water, I'm pretty sure it's the location/length of the thermo that is the root cause for the temperature differential from measuring with a Maverick ET-7 via top vent.

Anyhow, I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread. I now know why my temps were "odd" and am BBQ'ing with much more confidence now in one aspect of cooking... temperature. Now that I have temps that I trust and don't second guess, I'll move onto meat "doneness" and preparation (rubs, basting, etc.).
 
Ah! That explains it, thank you. It dates from 1/6/2000 so it's not a Weber-installed thermometer, and there's not a picture of the cooker, so unless the author chimes in it's impossible to know if it's a probe in the vent or a mounted one, and if it's mounted then where.

I also note that the instructions say to run at 225 for the first three hours and the measured temps in that time run from 233-250. :)

Enjoy your smoker!
 
Originally posted by Doug Wade:
Ah! That explains it, thank you. It dates from 1/6/2000 so it's not a Weber-installed thermometer, and there's not a picture of the cooker, so unless the author chimes in it's impossible to know if it's a probe in the vent or a mounted one, and if it's mounted then where.
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Yeah, but it seems Chris had a thermometer through the top vent in and around 2000. See link below.

Link to write-up on measuring temps in the WSM.


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After reading all 4 pages of this thread ( great comments by all ) I figured I'd lighten it up a bit, and share a song, which ( in a nice way ) kinda relates to this..
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Tim
 
I'll just add this, when trying to compare two or more therms in the same location,vent,grate etc. it is paramount to ensure that the tips are as close to each other as possible. Close isn't good enough. I usually place them side by side and hold them together with a small piece of copper wire. An inch or two difference can make an appreciable difference in readings.

Al
 
I am fully aware that a range of temperatures works for BBQ.
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That is our point!
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A range works so the therm can read in that range and your fine. So we agree...right?

And I agree that its critical to know grate temp when attempting cooks below 225* dome. As you mention upthread things can go wrong if you're incorrectly assuming things are hotter than they appear. But I think most of us have abandoned cooking at extremely low temps.

Hopefully this won't start another firestorm, but IMO, if one wants to speed up their learning curve, they need to cook hotter.

The most difficult part of bbq is knowing when things are done. Signs for each type of meat are different and the window for each is also different.

When starting out, I suggest running hot and fast for a couple of reasons:

1) cooks go faster, you won't have wasted hours and hours on something that never got to tender. And you can squeeze cooks in in an afternoon so you'll have more opportunities to practice.

2) if you happen to get bold and invite guests, its more likely that you'll be done early and have to hold the meat in a cooler which is very much preferable to having to make hungry people wait.

3) I tend to be gun shy and want to pull my meat off too soon. Running hot, you're more likely to overcook than undercook, so it works for me.

4) Done happens faster, so checking every 20 min or so when you think you're in the window reveals perceptible changes.

5) you're not fighting the wsm trying to keep temps down.

once you gain some confidence, you can dial the wsm back and try low and slow to see if the results are different.
 
I love it, Tim! Does anybody really know what temp it is? Does anybody really care? Perfect!
Results count (and the ability to descern), everything else is hobby fun.
 
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