New 2009 WSM - Built in thermometer is so "wrong"


 
Originally posted by j biesinger:

A range works so the therm can read in that range and your fine. So we agree...right?

And I agree that its critical to know grate temp when attempting cooks below 225* dome. As you mention upthread things can go wrong if you're incorrectly assuming things are hotter than they appear. But I think most of us have abandoned cooking at extremely low temps.
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When cooking with either the standard or minion method... with top vent fully open and bottom three vents at 25% or even 50%... the WSM lid thermometer will read well below 225F. It would likely read 195-205F. And yeah, that had me concerned... but now that I've measured temps "the old fashioned way"... I feel a lot more confident.

As for agreeing or not... do you consider 205F "in that working range"? I don't. My point and your point are mutually exclusive of each other.

My point: The WSM lid reading is "wrong". It consistently reads lower than even the actual top grill temp... and well below the lid temp as measured by most via longer probe through the top vent. I'm suggesting 2009 WSM newbie owners to measure through the top vent with a probe because the WSM lid thermo at 205F is actually "OK"! It's part of the process of learning the gear.

Your point: BBQ doesn't rely on an exact temp, a range of temperatures work between 225 and even higher temps like 300F are fine. The important part is to truly understand when your meat is done and not rely on a certain time at a certain temperature.

So yes, I agree with both mutually exclusive points.

And J... no firestorms here my bbq brother. I absolutely love the feedback in this thread and appreciate your points!

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Originally posted by euge.lee:


When cooking with either the standard or minion method... with top vent fully open and bottom three vents at 25% or even 50%... the WSM lid thermometer will read well below 225F. It would likely read 195-205F. And yeah, that had me concerned... but now that I've measured temps "the old fashioned way"... I feel a lot more confident.
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I still think that's weird. If I start a cook, I start with all vents open. When it hits 200, I close down to 25%. The temp continues to rise and settles in at 250 plus or minus 5 degrees and will sit there for hours (with minion temps will drop in 7-8 hours to 180-190 if I don't stir out some ashes). For that matter, if there's water in the pan and I leave them at 100% it will basically do the same thing, closing the vents just saves fuel.

If you're closing down to 25% right from the start, I wonder if you're not really hitting equilibrium. I also wonder if that is increasing the temperature spread you're measuring.

Those were all lid temps, by the way, with the built in.
 
Originally posted by Al Silverman:
I'll just add this, when trying to compare two or more therms in the same location,vent,grate etc. it is paramount to ensure that the tips are as close to each other as possible. Close isn't good enough. I usually place them side by side and hold them together with a small piece of copper wire. An inch or two difference can make an appreciable difference in readings.

Al
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That's actually OP's point. If the temperatures are very uneven in different points in the smoker, how do you know you're at the right temperature?
 
PS. And I will take your advice on the next cook about cooking at a higher temperature. Thanks!
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Initially I struggled, especially will low and slow. going hotter helped me to get over the hump (for previously stated reasons).

I kind of threw caution to the wind and let the wsm do the cooking for me. I figured I could always work back and see if 215-225* makes a difference but I've been satisfied enough to keep cooking around 250*.
 
Hey "J" that makes a lotta sense
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....Both the Tel-TRU and Weber dome therms show a smoke range of 200-275*,... close enough for government work
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...in the end it's "doneness", all the way, Baby
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Originally posted by j biesinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am fully aware that a range of temperatures works for BBQ.
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That is our point!
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A range works so the therm can read in that range and your fine. So we agree...right?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's where the misunderstanding lies. Nobody ever said you need an exact temp and we all agree that a fairly wide range is fine, but when the OP posted because he was concerned about temps that were clearly outside of that acceptable range he was told to stop worrying about temps. So while your point about a range of temps being OK is correct and true it's not relevant to the original concern.
 
No misunderstanding here Smiler We're merely sharing opinions my friend; and they're all relevant Wink
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Nope, got to stay on topic. I promise to never hijack another thread ever again
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but since I've been baited into this again...I'll bite.

Here's where the misunderstanding lies. Nobody ever said you need an exact temp and we all agree that a fairly wide range is fine, but when the OP posted because he was concerned about temps that were clearly outside of that acceptable range he was told to stop worrying about temps. So while your point about a range of temps being OK is correct and true it's not relevant to the original concern.
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The original concern is that the stock therm reads 20* differently than the grate. A key part of this is determining whether that's acceptable (to use your term). Me stating that it IS acceptable is important for moving the discussion forward.

I stated this repeatedly, I had trouble operating the wsm when I obsessed over temps, and only progressed when, on the recommendations of fellow wsm operators, I let go and let the wsm do the work. At the time I joined the discussion, it was mostly about how best to determine temp. Another key point is that its very difficult to get a precise temp due to the different factors inside the wsm, which also is critical to the discussion.

So, my intent was to help others avoid the "exact temp" obsession which IMO does nothing to improve the quality of bbq you produce, which should ultimately be the goal of any thread posted in a forum section titled "barbeque." If we were in a section titled "thermometer, temperature and heat" then I guess I would have been out of line bringing up anything to do with actual cooking of meat.
 
Originally posted by j biesinger:
but since I've been baited into this again...I'll bite.
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And I'll get baited again too!
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You often mention a "higher heat" cook.. so yes, if the temps are 250 instead of 235... totally cool. But what if your temps read 195F on your smoker's only thermometer... would you be as confident and continue on just relying on "meat doneness"? I don't think so... especially if you're cooking a pork shoulder with a desired finishing temp of 195F.

I think there's a big difference between the WSM lid reading 265 rather than 195 when the "actual" temp is 230. The "195" really had me concerned.
 
I've missed a lot of the discussion apparently, but I'm wondering if the external environment has anything to do with the zone differences you're seeing.

For what it's worth, I did a session last Wed evening with outside temps starting at 37F out of direct sun, dropping to 30F in the dark 6 hours later with no wind. The biggest difference I noticed was 10deg in the beginning between grate and lid. For the most part, especially after it got dark and a little colder, the temps were within 3deg of each other. When there was a difference, the lid always read slightly hotter.
 
Originally posted by Rob F:
I've missed a lot of the discussion apparently, but I'm wondering if the external environment has anything to do with the zone differences you're seeing.
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I live in SoCal... so 70 during the day, dropping down to 40 at night (on a cold cold night).
 
You often mention a "higher heat" cook.. so yes, if the temps are 250 instead of 235... totally cool. But what if your temps read 195F on your smoker's only thermometer... would you be as confident and continue on just relying on "meat doneness"? I don't think so... especially if you're cooking a pork shoulder with a desired finishing temp of 195F.

I think there's a big difference between the WSM lid reading 265 rather than 195 when the "actual" temp is 230. The "195" really had me concerned.
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I did mention in my original post (and who knows if I expanded on it in a subsequent post) that its imperative that you realize that dome temp is not dead on. I had a big eye opener when I measured grate temp and compared it to vent temp. I couldn't get my ribs to tender and it was partly due to the fact that I was trying for 225* at the vent.

But I think this all becomes irrelevant when you start shooting for 250* dome. maybe temps tend to smooth out, and there's less of a difference, either way, most of us have no problem getting meat to tender in a reasonable amount of time with no water, a good minion, and a dome target of 250*.
 
Originally posted by j biesinger:
I did mention in my original post (and who knows if I expanded on it in a subsequent post) that its imperative that you realize that dome temp is not dead on. I had a big eye opener when I measured grate temp and compared it to vent temp. I couldn't get my ribs to tender and it was partly due to the fact that I was trying for 225* at the vent.

But I think this all becomes irrelevant when you start shooting for 250* dome. maybe temps tend to smooth out, and there's less of a difference, either way, most of us have no problem getting meat to tender in a reasonable amount of time with no water, a good minion, and a dome target of 250*.
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Yup, will try an intentional higher heat cook... but probably not targeting 250F according to the WSM lid thermometer. According to my temperature logs... 250 dome on the WSM lid is 295 as measured through the top vent. To get 250F on the WSM lid with a water pan filled with water is very difficult on my WSM without an inverted and/or propped open door.

And yeah, that's a whole different topic for us on here... the 2009 WSM water pan holds over 2 gallons! Similarly, when following recipes that call for a full water pan... one must realize that it wasn't written assuming such a huge heat sink. This is all part of learning.
 
Originally posted by euge.lee:
And yeah, that's a whole different topic for us on here... the 2009 WSM water pan holds over 2 gallons! Similarly, when following recipes that call for a full water pan... one must realize that it wasn't written assuming such a huge heat sink. This is all part of learning.
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For that matter with a 22.5" you just have to accept that everything might be just a bit off - you might need a little extra fuel, and the water pan is 3 gallons I think. But it all seems to come out in the wash (takes more fuel, but the charcoal ring is bigger, so if it says full charcoal ring just fill it.)
 
Interesting topic here.

I did my first smoke with the Guru this past weekend. Did 2 racks of St Louis spares and some ABTs. Woke up saturday morning to -17*F (yep-that's a negative sign). Thankfully, the wind was calm. By the time I went to fire things up it had warmed to a balmy -9*. Anyway, the Guru held 225 at the cooking grate beautifully, and initially the WSM lid therm was indicating anywhere from 195-205. A couple hours into the cook, the wind went from calm to just a slight breeze, and that was enough to drop the WSM dome thermometer to 170. So I had 225 on the top grate and 170 on the dome. Goes to show what a cold wind can do to temp readings. But no worries, ribs turned out great!
 
My thermometer on my new WSM was not only wrong....it was broken. Never went over 240 when my ET-73 at the grate level was between 230-270. It just sat at 240 forever.

Weber is sending me a new one.
 
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