Brine the Turkey?


 
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Dave,
I'm with Dave?! I have only done three turkeys
but my wife will not let me do anything else to turkeys. I use the simple brine at the website and go for about 48 hrs. Smoke at 250 until about
160 at the thigh.
 
Pat --

Don't you mean that you go for 180 in the thigh, or 160 in the breast? Seems to be what I've heard about poultry temps, less that smoke is catching up with me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
 
Thanks Dave, Pat & Walt. I am going to give it a try.

1. Preferences? Apple - cherry or hickory wood? Tending towards apple wood.
2. What I have is table salt. (comments please).

I estimate that I am going to need 2 gals or water so 1cup of table salt and 1cup of sugar plus other spiecs.

I am going to have about 12-18 hrs to brine the 17lb bird.

Comments?
 
Hi, Dave. For a different opinion than you have already received, I prefer to not brine my turkey and to cook it at a higher temperature, 325?F. IMO, this provides a more crispy skin, takes about 12 to 15 minutes per pound, is a safer cooking method for poultry and does not over smoke it. It is done when the thigh is 180?F to 185?F and the breast is 160?F to 170?F. Pictures of my last turkey cook can be seen here. (Use the Prev and Next links, above the pictures, to cycle through the whole series.) If you do cook it at a lower temperature, brining (curing) may be a good idea.

For poultry, I usually use apple and/or cherry, although, I have also used hickory and found it to be very good. Hickory is stronger than apple or cherry so, if you use it on poultry, use a little less.
 
While researching why (note: I have this defect ? I am an engineer and usually try to quantify and qualify why. Mom says I was a pain), I ran across the California Barbecue Association FAQ on turkey. It may be found at www.cbbqa.com/faq/10-5.html.

The meat of the FAQ I found under the question [What exactly does brining do for a turkey or chicken?] at the above source.

{quote}
There's a very good reason for that, according to Alan Sams, Ph. D. an associate professor of poultry science at Texas A&M University. Sams, who has published several papers on brining poultry, says it's basically an electric [electrolyte] thing.

"What is happening is that salt [the chloride part more than the sodium] penetrates into the muscle," Sams says. "The charged ions cause the muscle fibers to swell, and that sucks in even more water. It also binds the water to other protein, meaning the meat holds more water during cooking. That's what causes the juiciness effect.

"The three big benefits I've seen are increased juiciness, better flavor because of the saltiness and improved tenderness," Sams continues. "Brining generally creates a looser protein network. It's the discharge propulsion - the negative ions repelling each other and loosening the muscle fibers."

All of this was documented in a 1977 paper by five scientists from the University of Florida. They compared roast chickens that had been brined, chickens that had been soaked in plain ice water and chickens that had not been treated.
They found that the brined chickens scored much higher with testers in terms of flavor and tested better for juiciness and tenderness (the difference in tenderness was much greater for white meat than for dark). Microbial testing also showed slightly lower populations of various bacteria in the brined chicken than in the others.
{end quote}

Additional quotations from the FAQ are

{quote}

[Does brining a turkey really make a difference in the taste?]
Ed Pawlowski--
I brined my first turkey this Thanksgiving-day (1997). It was better than any turkey I've ever done. This is one of the easiest ways of improving a turkey I've encountered and will not cook a turkey without brining, ever again.
Belly--
First time for me too. Best-tasting turkey that I ever cooked. I did one each way, (with and without brining) and the brining made a world of difference. An old dog learned a new trick today.
Thomas Street--
I smoked 2 turkey breasts for the big day. Brined one and just rubbed the other with spices. No doubt whatsoever. The rubbed bird was nice and tasty, but the brined one just exploded the old taste buds--much more moist and flavorful.
{end quote}

I have a five gal (food quality) bucket that I normally use to make hard cider and the ?downstairs? fridge that I just plugged in. I?m going to try 2 gal water, 1cup table salt and 1cup brown sugar.

I plan on (a small amount of) seasoned dry apple wood for the smoke.

I?ve been reading up on decreasing the amount of water in the WSM for higher temperature smoking. (Thanks Ray - I read your notes and pictures. I am going to try it once (brine) and see how it works out. I also plan on higher temp, less water).
 
Walt,
Rite on the temp?!Sorry,it was too early to compose anything!

Ray,
I ahve cooked turkeys like yours on the Weber Kettle with marvelous results. You can heat up and hold a Kettle at 325-350 very easily. What I do on the WSM is like the smoked turkeys you buy in the markets-only a lot better. The meat takes on a pink appearance from the smoke and the Tender Quik. We usually serve it sliced cold for
parties.
 
Ray, brining and curing are not necessarily the same thing. Flavor brining is not a method of preserving meat, it is a method of adding moisture and seasoning throughout the meat. It is not intended to make it safer to cook the meat at lower temps. By the way, I am a big fan of brining. In my experience, a simple salt/sugar/water brine imparts a wonderful juiciness, and seasons the meat all the way through, not just on the outside.

Steve
 
The adventure continues. At 1:00 p.m. I got the brine mix complete (1cup brown sugar + 1cup table salt and a dozen dashes of soy). Cleaned and emptied the bird and got it in the fridge in the brine. Holding it down in the brine with a 1gal baggie mostly full of water.

While cleaning was thinking of spices under the skin after the brine.
 
Dave - The best judge of what's best is you. Give it a try and see what you think; I just spoke of my own preferences. I also don't care that much for fried turkey and, therefore, don't own or use a turkey fryer.

You said that you used a dozen dashes of soy in your brine. I know that soy protein concentrate is often used in making sausage (slows down the loss of fat and moisture during smoking) but wonder if this is why you used it in your brine or was it a different soy product and different purpose?

Pat - I, too, have cooked turkeys on a grill similar to the Weber Kettle. (It's a Kingsford; oval, in shape). (A picture of last one is here.) They use less fuel than the WSM and the temperature is easy to maintain for a 3 to 4 hour cook. Much over that is a bit difficult because of the need to open the cooking chamber to add/adjust fuel and/or water, if used.

Steve - Brining and curing are the same thing, just done to different levels (amount of time exposed to the brine) and for different purposes, as you said. If you can direct me to any source that describes any difference between brining and curing (liquid brine method), other than time, I would surely like to see it. Salt is the only ingredient necessary for curing, although, sugar, nitrites and/or nitrates are usually added for color and taste benefits. Salt and sugar cure meat by osmosis, the movement of water across a membrane from weak solutions, inside the meat, toward strong solutions, the brine, therefore, removing water from the meat. I believe the previous quote from Alan Sams to be only partially correct - "Brining generally creates a looser protein network. ...and loosening the muscle fibers." It's this change in the texture of the meat, and the added salt, that I don't care for; I prefer it to be moist, yet firm. I also don't care for the effect brining has on the skin.

Brining does impede the growth of bacteria and I would definitely suggest it be done to poultry, if you are going to cook it at lower temperatures. Keeping poultry within the danger zone of 40?F to 140?F for more than a couple of hours is dangerous. Personally, I don't care to do that. If you do, I would suggest you make sure every part is cooked to at least 165?F and that there are no pink juices coming from it - botulism does not make a good desert! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
 
Ray, I understand all that. I was simply pointing out that there is a difference between brining for flavor, and curing for preservation. Like you, I don't want anyone to get sick.

Steve
 
Ray ? I have never had a fried turkey. I hear they are very good but figured I would have a cholesterol attack if I did.

The dashes were soy sauce. Water, soy, salt, sugar and color. Actually, by the time I rinsed off the turkey and cooked it I figured it will not matter. I added soy on a whim ? I seriously doubt it will affect anything. I am guessing that the brown sugar will only balance the salt. Like seasoned salt: Equal amounts of Sugar and Salt.

I am also concerned about the amount of salt in the brine mix. I balanced concern of bacteria from the 17lb. bird, a wish for the best dinner and desire to try something new. I don?t know if it is true or not but I did see from writing that the brine will keep the breast more moist. That is when the breast finishes cooking before the thigh and the brine soak will help keep the breast from drying out. Again, the concern about a bacteria for larger bird tipped the balance to try a brine. I did rinse out the bird prior to applying oil.

For the record, the bird soaked for 18 hours. The bird is currently on the WSM at the top and last I looked the temp at the highest point of the WSM is about 250. I started with a half gallon of water but will let it decrease and will try to keep it at a lower level. Should have used a small pan to better monitor the smaller amount of liquid. I did air dry (in the fridge) for about four hours. I applied a coating of oil to the skin and no other spices.

The current temp is about 270 degrees as measured with the Weber thermometer half stuck in one of the top air vents. I have found that the thermometer makes a smoke residue mess if the thermometer rests over the hole and blocks 1/3 of the vent. I prefer to just leave it balancing over one hole reading air temp as it escapes the smoker. All vents on the smoker are wide open.

I have seen concern from people about a lot of meat companies adding a ?flavor enhancement? mix to packaged meat. I read the butterball package; it said it had a 7% solution by weight. That means of the 17 pounds, 1.2 pounds were added water, salt and other things that ?enhance? flavor. Sounds like a flavor brine to me.
 
Steve - I think a lot of people confuse the purpose of brining with marinating. Yes, if you add spices and seasonings to brine, it will be drawn into the meat, as the water is drawn out. A simple brine solution of salt, sugar, and water simply adds salt and actually draws water out of meat. The purpose of the sugar is to offset the bad taste of excessive salt. Fish is another good example that benefits from brining - keeps it from spoiling, during a long smoke, and helps it to dry out by withdrawing the water. A marinade, on the other hand, is used to tenderize meat and add flavorings.

Dave -

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...a wish for the best dinner and desire to try something new. I don?t know if it is true or not but I did see from writing that the brine will keep the breast more moist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's exactly what it's all about and I'm sure you will enjoy it! Keep notes of what works and what doesn't, it's amazing how fast one forgets the details with so many variables! Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

One of the functions of brine is to remove water, not add it. I have never had a problem with dry turkey, as long as it's not overcooked. You might need to slide a piece of foil under the wing tips and wrap the ends of the legs, near the end of the cook, to keep them from drying out. That's only because they have a lot of bone, which gets very hot, and very little meat to hold the moisture.

I have a turkey in the freezer that has been injected with 'enhancers', consisting of:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Turkey broth (water)

<LI>Salt

<LI>Sodium phosphate

<LI>Natural flavorings

[/list]
While the broth and 'natural' flavorings may add some flavor, the major benefits are:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Salt - preservative and flavor enhancement

<LI>Sodium phosphate - binding, retaining moisture, increase shelf life

<LI>Water - Money! I wish I could sell water by the pound! (8lbs/gal)

[/list]
While I don't care for brining poultry that's to be eaten as is, I do like to do it when it's to be pulled apart for salads, soups, and sandwiches. A longer cook, at a reduced cooking temperature, makes it very tender.
If brining added moisture to an already 'enhanced' turkey, one might end up with turkey soup! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Humphrey:
[qb]One of the functions of brine is to remove water, not add it.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In the book CookWise, Shirley O. Corriher writes, "Brining is a way to increase the amount of liquid inside the meat cells--a way to make meat juicier."

Cook's Illustrated magazine performed a test in which they weighed turkeys before and after flavor brining. They found that 11 pound turkeys weighed an average of 12 ounces more after brining, and 6-8 ounces more after roasting.

Regards,
Chris
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Humphrey:
[qb]Steve - I think a lot of people confuse the purpose of brining with marinating. Yes, if you add spices and seasonings to brine, it will be drawn into the meat, as the water is drawn out. A simple brine solution of salt, sugar, and water simply adds salt and actually draws water out of meat.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know the difference between brining and marinating. Brining does not draw water out, it transfers water into the meat. After soaking in brine (I'm talking about a simple salt/sugar/water solution), a piece of meat is heavier and visibly plumper.

Steve
 
Chris,

Interesting. I wonder how much wet salt and sugar weigh after it dries out a little? In this case, maybe about 6 to 8 ounces? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In a liquid brine, as the osmosis process takes place, the lighter water in the turkey is drawn out, being replaced by the heavier salt & sugar brine. The salt acts as a curing agent, slowing the growth of bacteria. Some salt also acts as a flavor enhancer. However, since so much salt is used, sugar is added to counteract the harsh taste of so much of it.

While I have never measured the difference (weight or volume) from a liquid brine, I do know how much water is drawn from meats and fish when packed in salt for dry curing - a LOT! Just sprinkle some salt on a piece of meat or fish and watch the water drops start to form.

In a basic salt, sugar, and water brine, there is no tenderizing agent and there are no additional flavors being added - it's sole purpose is to slow down the growth of bacteria and, for some foods like fish, to hasten the drying process.

If someone on this forum performs the weight/volume measurement test, please report back to us on your results.
 
Steve,

I would suggest you do some research into what brining and/or curing actually does and how it does it. A few places to start are The University of Illinois Department of Animal Sciences Curing Methods page, North Dakota State University Preservation of Game Meats page, The Meat Smoking and Curing FAQ, and Allied Kenco Sales. A quick Web search will turn up a LOT of information about what brining is, how it works, and its purpose.

It does, indeed, draw the lighter water out of meat and fish, replacing it with the heavier salt and sugar brine. Then, as the meat is cooked, the water dissipates just as it does from a piece of meat or fish that hasn't been brined. In fact, it dissipates faster, due to the opened pores of the meat or fish and the drawing effect of salt. Have you ever brined and smoked or dried fish? If you try it without brining, chances are, it will spoil before it dries.

'Visibly plumper' is a result of the effect brines have on the meat and fish tissue, opening it up more and, in the case of fish, causes it to become flaky, when cooked or dried. While in this state, it may very well absorb more of the brine than it gives up of its own water, but the salt and open tissues also cause it to evaporate faster, when cooked.

Regardless, the bottom line is that the main purpose for brining is to slow down the growth of bacteria, thus, allowing one to smoke, cook, or dry foods, at lower temperatures and for longer periods of time. If you like the texture and don't mind the added salt, go for it.
 
Ray, I appreciate your taking the time to post such thorough information on this subject. I hope you will not be mad at me if I take exception to a few points in your last two replies. Not trying to pick on you here, just want to make sure we're using the same terminology so we can share accurate information with one another. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I define "flavor brining" as a mild salt water solution (with optional ingredients like sugar, herbs, spices, and other flavorful liquids) in which meat is soaked for 2 to 48 hours, for the purpose of adding moisture and flavor to meat. A flavor brine is what someone will use on a turkey, chicken, or pork loin that they want to smoke on the WSM. Flavor brining is not to be confused with brining for the purpose of preserving meat--those solutions use a much higher salt concentration.

Here's how the flavor brining process is described in CookWise, a well-respected book that explains "the way things work" in cooking. I'm paraphrasing here:

Salt applied to the surface of meat will draw moisture to the surface. If that moisture evaporates, the meat gets drier. (So you're right on the money when you talk about meat packed in dry salt--no argument on this point.)

In the case of flavor brining, though, the moisture drawn to the surface does not evaporate--it just goes into the solution. After a little while, the process begins to reverse and the solution (water, salt, sugar, fruit juice, other seasonings, etc.) is drawn into the meat.

Once inside, the salt (and sugar to a lesser extent) causes the meat proteins to denature and form a matrix that traps some of the additional moisture inside the meat, even after cooking. That's why a brined, cooked turkey actually weighs more than an unbrined, cooked turkey. This also explains why when you cut into a brined chicken or turkey, it is visibly more moist than unbrined meat. The difference in weight is primarily the result of additional moisture, not the miniscule weight of salt, sugar, and other seasonings.

Since the salt, sugar, and other flavors are drawn into the meat, the flavor of the meat is changed and enhanced by the flavor brine. The salt is not used in a flavor brine for its ability to fight bacteria--the amount of salt used is not high enough to do that--rather it's used for it's flavor enhancing ability and because it can denature those proteins, thus trapping moisture in the meat.

Regarding tenderizing, you're absolutely right--flavor brining does not actually tenderize meat. However, since juiciness is part of our sensory perception of tenderness, flavor brining may result in the perception of more tender meat.

Having said all that, not everyone likes the taste, texture, or moisture changes that results from flavor brining. My advice to folks is to try it and keep on doing it if you like it! No one needs to brine every chicken or turkey they barbecue, but it's nice to do every once in a while.

Best regards,
Chris
 
Hi, Chris! You said, "I hope you will not be mad at me if I take exception to a few points in your last two replies." Of course not! I enjoy and welcome a lively debate. I also hope no one else gets upset, that's not the purpose or intent. The exchange of ideas, knowledge, and experience is one of things that make cooking such a fun experience.

After reading back over a few of my post, I see where I wasn't very clear on a few points. If herbs, spices and flavors are added to the brine, yes, it will be drawn into the meat, along with the brine solution. What we have mostly talked about is basic salt, sugar, and water brine. The only flavor benefit this is going to provide is from the salt and sugar. If that's what one likes, that's what they should have.

You said, "In the case of flavor brining, though, the moisture drawn to the surface does not evaporate--it just goes into the solution. After a little while, the process begins to reverse and the solution (water, salt, sugar, fruit juice, other seasonings, etc.) is drawn into the meat." Actually, I believe that, during the process of osmosis, the two replace each other.

You said, "The salt is not used in a flavor brine for its ability to fight bacteria...? While that may not be the users intent, I would suggest they be glad that it does! Otherwise, keeping turkey, chicken, game hens, etc. in the danger zone for an extended time is like playing Russian roulette.

Questions - Most turkeys are now being injected with 7% to 12%, by weight, brine solution by the supplier. Do you think soaking it in another brine solution provides any additional benefit? Does it draw theirs out and put yours in?
 
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