Thinking About Espresso


 
Well, I was able to do a passable job of foaming up some 2% milk mixed with heavy cream. (what I have read says full fat milk works best so I made my own :) )
I used the Kirkland French Roast (does not have roasted by Starbucks on label), and indicates something about rainforest alliance. In any case, instructions show 15-20 grams for double shot. I did 20, but honestly could only "fit" about 18 of it in. I measured out 20 grams and gave those a grind at the upper espresso setting on my Breville SG Pro.
Anyway results were REALLY good. Though, again, not really "hot" as how I expect a "hot coffee" to be.
When I pour a freshly brewed cup from my Breville (or my OXO or even from what used to come from my Moccamaster) they're ALL too hot to just drink straight away. IN all those machines cases if I pour(ed) a freshly brewed cup I am getting a 180 deg coffee before my little dollop of cream.
This espresso machine is set to it's hottest setting and the drink is about 20-35 deg cooler by my taste buds. Hot, but not HOT. IDK, I can taste that the brew is definitely extracted properly. It is fragrant, and tastes wonderfully. There is no doubt in my head that it's not fully and properly extracted. No sour notes, very fragrant, nothing "off" about it.
I guess this is what espresso from a good machine is like? Though to be fair, I brewed and forgot to prewarm the brew group and head as the instructions say to do. So some of this may be operator error.
Still, I gotta say while that little Casabrews made a "nice" cup, this thing brews (at least to me) an incredible cup. Honestly I never knew a coffee could taste THIS good.
So let's just say I am impressed, and feel I got my $$$ worth especially at the $229 price point.
One thing I did do, is there was a seller on EBay has one listed "for parts only" but it includes the frother attachment. So I made an offer. If I get it I think it will be handy
 
Only thing "critical" I can say about so far is the catch tray sure fills up and over flows in a real hurry. This one has an auto cool down function for the boiler. Unlike that Casabrews. Which has you place a cup under the wand, and run some hot water through to cool the boiler. This one, simply pumps some water through when you go back to brewing from the steam setting and pushes water and steam into the catch tray. Fills it up after one or 2 steam cycles. I had no clue it filled so fast and the little float is barely visible.
I guess this is an issue on the little Breville machines as well. So, it's one of those things that need very careful attention. I have been setting the Breville grinder on "15" and was getting a nice brew. So I made 2 cups this AM. I set the first one on 15 and got IMO a perfect brew. The second one I set to "10" IIRC and the water barely trickled out. I pushed on the tamper with what I felt was the same force. So, here is another thing I don't know. Does the same pressure on the tamper with a finer grind pack it a lot tighter? If so, is it advantageous to grind finer and use less tamping pressure?
I guess I could experiment but I'm trying not to over caffeinate myself :D
 
I'm no pro, so someone like Hank may correct me, but what I've read says having a leve tamp is more important than tamping pressure. Logically, if you have a finer grind, the same pressure SHOULD result in a "tighter" puck in the basket, which would result in the much slower flow you experienced when you ground on 10 vs 15. When I was dialing in my grinder, my goal was to get my desired shot amount (weighed, not by volume since crema can make the volumetric measurement wonky) into the cup in 25 seconds. I'm using 21g of coffee in a double basket, so I'm shooting for ~42g of espresso in my cup in 25 seconds. Once I had a grind dialed in that delivered that, I have stopped weighing my shots, and have stayed in a pretty consistent zone with my espresso......with some minor grind adjustments needed when I change coffees (fresher roasts typically need to be a bit coarser, and older beans a bit finer.) All of that may be more work than you want to put in, but I like to tinker so, it's fun.

My liquid lunch from today......

1708474793377.jpeg
 
Rich G said:
I'm no pro, so someone like Hank may correct me, but what I've read says having a leve tamp is more important than tamping pressure. Logically, if you have a finer grind, the same pressure SHOULD result in a "tighter" puck in the basket, which would result in the much slower flow you experienced when you ground on 10 vs 15. When I was dialing in my grinder, my goal was to get my desired shot amount (weighed, not by volume since crema can make the volumetric measurement wonky) into the cup in 25 seconds. I'm using 21g of coffee in a double basket, so I'm shooting for ~42g of espresso in my cup in 25 seconds. Once I had a grind dialed in that delivered that, I have stopped weighing my shots, and have stayed in a pretty consistent zone with my espresso......with some minor grind adjustments needed when I change coffees (fresher roasts typically need to be a bit coarser, and older beans a bit finer.) All of that may be more work than you want to put in, but I like to tinker so, it's fun.

My liquid lunch from today......

View attachment 86756
Click to expand...
Holy smokes you made my head spin LOL
On another note. Check this out https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CRQYMJ5K/?tag=tvwb-20 I swear other than one being shiny and this being black it is the same machine as the Casabrews I bought and thought "what a bargain" at $139. Now I see this! Honestly I'm almost gonna buy it just to say I bought a somewhat passable machine for $39!
 
LMichaels said:
Holy smokes you made my head spin LOL
On another note. Check this out https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CRQYMJ5K/?tag=tvwb-20 I swear other than one being shiny and this being black it is the same machine as the Casabrews I bought and thought "what a bargain" at $139. Now I see this! Honestly I'm almost gonna buy it just to say I bought a somewhat passable machine for $39!
Click to expand...
The simpler version is to just test a few different grind settings until you enjoy the flavor of the shots you are producing! Too sour, probably too coarse. Too bitter, probably too fine. :)
 
Rich G said:
The simpler version is to just test a few different grind settings until you enjoy the flavor of the shots you are producing! Too sour, probably too coarse. Too bitter, probably too fine. :)
Click to expand...
Yep, have to say with the new bag of Kirkland French Roast that #15 setting with 18 grams gave me a REALLY nice rich, not sour or bitter brew. What the ratios are I don't have a clue since I have no idea how many grams of liquid I am getting out of there.
I used the non pressurized double basket, the setting of 2 shot out of the box. Only adjustments I have made are to the water hardness and temp settings. I set the temp to the max though I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
I think I have the flavor profile dialed in for that coffee roast and particular blend from Costco.
I guess if I use a different blend and roast all bets would be off again.
 
LMichaels said:
Yep, have to say with the new bag of Kirkland French Roast that #15 setting with 18 grams gave me a REALLY nice rich, not sour or bitter brew. What the ratios are I don't have a clue since I have no idea how many grams of liquid I am getting out of there.
I used the non pressurized double basket, the setting of 2 shot out of the box. Only adjustments I have made are to the water hardness and temp settings. I set the temp to the max though I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
I think I have the flavor profile dialed in for that coffee roast and particular blend from Costco.
I guess if I use a different blend and roast all bets would be off again.
Click to expand...
You're all good, Larry. You found a grind and dose that creates what you want in the cup.......ultimately that's all that matters. I am absolutely floored by what some people do to get their shot to their version of perfect. Even what I described above is too much, but I really went through that process to dial in what I like......I don't weigh or time the output anymore, but going through all of that helped me to understand how to change things if a new coffee isn't tasting the way I want it to.

I guess it's kind of like all the things we are willing to do to turn out excellent food off the grill. Eventually, you whittle it down to the process/technique that turns out what you want with a level of effort that is worth it to you.

Glad you are happy with your new machine!

R
 
LMichaels said:
Well, I was able to do a passable job of foaming up some 2% milk mixed with heavy cream. (what I have read says full fat milk works best so I made my own :) )
I used the Kirkland French Roast (does not have roasted by Starbucks on label), and indicates something about rainforest alliance. In any case, instructions show 15-20 grams for double shot. I did 20, but honestly could only "fit" about 18 of it in. I measured out 20 grams and gave those a grind at the upper espresso setting on my Breville SG Pro.
Anyway results were REALLY good. Though, again, not really "hot" as how I expect a "hot coffee" to be.
When I pour a freshly brewed cup from my Breville (or my OXO or even from what used to come from my Moccamaster) they're ALL too hot to just drink straight away. IN all those machines cases if I pour(ed) a freshly brewed cup I am getting a 180 deg coffee before my little dollop of cream.
This espresso machine is set to it's hottest setting and the drink is about 20-35 deg cooler by my taste buds. Hot, but not HOT. IDK, I can taste that the brew is definitely extracted properly. It is fragrant, and tastes wonderfully. There is no doubt in my head that it's not fully and properly extracted. No sour notes, very fragrant, nothing "off" about it.
I guess this is what espresso from a good machine is like? Though to be fair, I brewed and forgot to prewarm the brew group and head as the instructions say to do. So some of this may be operator error.
Still, I gotta say while that little Casabrews made a "nice" cup, this thing brews (at least to me) an incredible cup. Honestly I never knew a coffee could taste THIS good.
So let's just say I am impressed, and feel I got my $$$ worth especially at the $229 price point.
One thing I did do, is there was a seller on EBay has one listed "for parts only" but it includes the frother attachment. So I made an offer. If I get it I think it will be handy
Click to expand...
Sounds great!
My sister makes a mean espresso with the Kirkland French roast as well but, I prefer Italian dark roasts. My Mom still has one of those old Bialetti Moka pots. It makes a mean cup of coffee....not quite espresso, but very rich and flavorful.
 
Rick P said:
Sounds great!
My sister makes a mean espresso with the Kirkland French roast as well but, I prefer Italian dark roasts. My Mom still has one of those old Bialetti Moka pots. It makes a mean cup of coffee....not quite espresso, but very rich and flavorful.
Click to expand...
Yes, I made regular drip this AM with the Kirkland FR. Very good but not as exceptional as what I got yesterday making espresso with it. But still a darn good cup o' Joe. Really. Although is fairness I have not used that coffee with this grinder and a Breville Precision Brewer. The last time I used/tried the Kirkland FR was with the KitchenAid grinder I sold, and the Moccamaster (I also sold). So I think if I dialed in the My Brew setting just a hair and perhaps my grind settings I just might bring out more of that essence. IN any case my drip grinder had been dialed in to my med roast organic Mexican beans. But still one darn fine pot of coffee.
I think I just hit on a great grind size and amount for it with the new KA Espresso machine.
Another thing I am going to try. I ordered these things today https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B1LD2SH2/?tag=tvwb-20
2Pcs 1.7mm and 1.0mm Thickness 58.5mm Espresso Puck Screen because I found I don't like the mess left on the brew head in the espresso machines.
 
LMichaels said:
Yes, I made regular drip this AM with the Kirkland FR. Very good but not as exceptional as what I got yesterday making espresso with it. But still a darn good cup o' Joe. Really. Although is fairness I have not used that coffee with this grinder and a Breville Precision Brewer. The last time I used/tried the Kirkland FR was with the KitchenAid grinder I sold, and the Moccamaster (I also sold). So I think if I dialed in the My Brew setting just a hair and perhaps my grind settings I just might bring out more of that essence. IN any case my drip grinder had been dialed in to my med roast organic Mexican beans. But still one darn fine pot of coffee.
I think I just hit on a great grind size and amount for it with the new KA Espresso machine.
Another thing I am going to try. I ordered these things today https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B1LD2SH2/?tag=tvwb-20
2Pcs 1.7mm and 1.0mm Thickness 58.5mm Espresso Puck Screen because I found I don't like the mess left on the brew head in the espresso machines.
Click to expand...
Cool beans! (pun fully intended)
This thread triggered me to buy a Bialetti pot. Mom offered me hers, but it's pushing 40 years and is in pretty rough shape. I don't think the design has changed in 90 years so I'm confident that the results will be the same...
 
Rick P said:
Cool beans! (pun fully intended)
This thread triggered me to buy a Bialetti pot. Mom offered me hers, but it's pushing 40 years and is in pretty rough shape. I don't think the design has changed in 90 years so I'm confident that the results will be the same...
Click to expand...

make sure to "break it in" after it arrives or the first few pots might taste off. wash it well, run a pot or two of plain water through it, then a couple of pots with half as much coffee as you would otherwise use.
 
DanHoo said:
make sure to "break it in" after it arrives or the first few pots might taste off. wash it well, run a pot or two of plain water through it, then a couple of pots with half as much coffee as you would otherwise use.
Click to expand...
Thanks!
 
Rich G said:
I'm no pro, so someone like Hank may correct me, but what I've read says having a leve tamp is more important than tamping pressure. Logically, if you have a finer grind, the same pressure SHOULD result in a "tighter" puck in the basket, which would result in the much slower flow you experienced when you ground on 10 vs 15. When I was dialing in my grinder, my goal was to get my desired shot amount (weighed, not by volume since crema can make the volumetric measurement wonky) into the cup in 25 seconds. I'm using 21g of coffee in a double basket, so I'm shooting for ~42g of espresso in my cup in 25 seconds. Once I had a grind dialed in that delivered that, I have stopped weighing my shots, and have stayed in a pretty consistent zone with my espresso......with some minor grind adjustments needed when I change coffees (fresher roasts typically need to be a bit coarser, and older beans a bit finer.) All of that may be more work than you want to put in, but I like to tinker so, it's fun.

My liquid lunch from today......

View attachment 86756
Click to expand...
I agree with all above....
 
So I tried the KA espresso maker with one of those 58mm x 1mm puck screens. Seemed to work very well. But I honestly don't know enough to know if it made a difference or not other than keeping the brew head clean. Which in the end is my goal. (to cut my workload).
I did notice the flow was slightly slower but IDK if I can attribute that to the screen or that I might have packed (tamped) more tightly. I have settled on (so far) 18 g of coffee in the 2 shot portafilter.
So IDK I guess I will continue to play. Only now I have 2 machines to play with. Weirdest thing happened. I had packed the little Casabrews up to send back to Amazon. I wrote a review on how much I "wanted" to love it but was disappointed in how much it disappointed me that it needed more than one cycle to heat up and that I never really got a "hot" cup of coffee from it.
Well the company up and sent my money back with a nice email saying how sorry they were and how much they would appreciate a second chance. Of course by this time I have already opened and used the KitchenAid quite a lot. I do like the KA EXCEPT, while this one is hotter it is still not a HOT coffee. Actually not really much hotter than the Casabrews.
So I am thinking here.......................What am I missing about espresso vs my regular drip maker? When the Breville drip makes a batch I have the PID set to keep it 196 for the My Brew setting. (due to the dark roast coffee). And it's "hot" in the carafe. Of course that machine will brew in shall we say a "closed space" with the coffee not really being exposed to air.
Could it be that having the coffee dribble out of the portafilter down into the cup cools it far more than I expect? And if so is this what espresso is about?
 
LMichaels said:
Could it be that having the coffee dribble out of the portafilter down into the cup cools it far more than I expect? And if so is this what espresso is about?
Click to expand...
I think you said you measured 175° in the cup? I don't think that's unreasonable. if your brew temp is between 195-205, the water goes through the coffee (cooler), is surrounded by the portafilter (cooler), and drops into a cup (cooler) through air (cooler), all of which will cool it down. I've never measured the temp of my espresso in the cup, but I do know that it's a bit too hot to drink immediately, and I usually let it cool a minute or two before my first sip. One thing that I do that you haven't mentioned is a run a bit of water from the machine through an empty portafilter to heat the portafilter a bit before I load a basket. You could also put some hot (tap or other) water in your cup to preheat that, too (mine just get "warm" sitting on top of my machine.)

There's a wide range of preferences for serving temperature of espresso (or coffee in general) that range from hotter than I'd ever try to drink to room temp. If the Casabrews is not hot enough for you, fiddle with it, I guess (or send it back if the KA does it for ya!)

Just my $.03.

R
 
Well I asked the above question and I guess I accidentally found my answers. This is precisely what I see with BOTH of the espresso machines. And here I was thinking something is wrong with them.
Now I feel just a little "guilty" re the Casabrews. Seems perhaps I was expecting more of it than a machine like this can deliver. Though I am sure that even at the price they were selling it at, ($139) there was still a ton of profit. As I found another company selling the same machine on Amazon as Casabrews for $39! So, makes me wonder just how cheap they can actually sell these things.
In any case I guess it's why they call it a "shot" rather than a cup. A shot is supposed to be "tossed back" and a "cup" is savored and enjoyed.

The espresso brewing temperature is important for determining the temperature of the coffee drink in your cup. The brewing temperature is the temperature of the water at the point where it comes into contact with the ground coffee. This temperature is controlled by the thermostat of the espresso machine and should be 190 to 196 degrees Fahrenheit. The temperature of the brew in your cup will be between 160 and 165 degrees Fahrenheit. The heat loss occurs in the brew group, the air, and the cup. This is the ideal temperature for espresso in order to feel hot without scalding. To keep the beverage temperature from being too low, you should preheat the brew group and the cup. The easiest and most reliable way to heat the brew group and the cup is to run the cycle once with water only. This will heat the brew group, including the portafilter, and the cup simultaneously. A cup warmer will also help keep cups warm when you are making multiple espresso beverages
 
And then more searching sees this

Why is my espresso not hot?

The reason is that espresso usually loses up to 40 degrees Fahrenheit by time it contacts the surface of a HOT cup or glass and up to 75 degrees Fahrenheit when espresso is extracted into a cold or room temperature cup/glass.
 
LMichaels said:
I did notice the flow was slightly slower but IDK if I can attribute that to the screen or that I might have packed (tamped) more tightly.
Click to expand...
I'm several years out of practice with manual espresso machines since I now use an automated unit. You already know that your tamp can impact your shot time, so I'll only comment on the puck screen filters you bought: if you conclude they are not your cup of tea I used to just keep a moist Handi Wipe at my station, run a tad bit of water through the head after completing my shot, and wipe the screen with the Handi Wipe.

Thanks for continuing to share your journey!
 
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