The door gaps are "designed that way" - I had to share this


 
Peter,

Interesting discussion, ie Sous Vide cooking post BBQ segment. A couple of BBQ specific items to include. When BBQing, not only is that 'ingredient' Smoke added, so too is the bark, smoke ring (although not a flavor ingredient) and surface color. You could stop the BBQing of, let's say... a Beef Brisket... whole packer... 14 to 18 imperial pounds, at 3 or 4 hours. But you would lose some those other ingredients which fill out the BBQ equation. Bark is considered in some circle to equate to the quality of the BBQ. It is for sure a texture component. If you stop the cook before the bark is fully set, you would also lose some of that textural component.

Unlike most cuts, those used in 'traditional' BBQ can be of lower quality. This lower quality meat is more than likely muscle that is involve in the animal's locomotion. As such, both the contractile protein fibers and connective tissue fibers have developed themselves for that task, which also makes them more difficult to denature. Let's say you do the initial BBQ cook followed by the meat's removal from the BBQ around 160 degrees. When you move to the Sous Vide step, it wouldn't surprise me if you had to raise that temperature up into the 195-200 degree to finish the cook. Even with a long duration cook, you still need to fully denature those tough proteins, which tend to transform at higher than normal temperatures.
 
Bob Bass said:
Peter,

Interesting discussion, ie Sous Vide cooking post BBQ segment. A couple of BBQ specific items to include. When BBQing, not only is that 'ingredient' Smoke added, so too is the bark, smoke ring (although not a flavor ingredient) and surface color. You could stop the BBQing of, let's say... a Beef Brisket... whole packer... 14 to 18 imperial pounds, at 3 or 4 hours. But you would lose some those other ingredients which fill out the BBQ equation. Bark is considered in some circle to equate to the quality of the BBQ. It is for sure a texture component. If you stop the cook before the bark is fully set, you would also lose some of that textural component.

Unlike most cuts, those used in 'traditional' BBQ can be of lower quality. This lower quality meat is more than likely muscle that is involve in the animal's locomotion. As such, both the contractile protein fibers and connective tissue fibers have developed themselves for that task, which also makes them more difficult to denature. Let's say you do the initial BBQ cook followed by the meat's removal from the BBQ around 160 degrees. When you move to the Sous Vide step, it wouldn't surprise me if you had to raise that temperature up into the 195-200 degree to finish the cook. Even with a long duration cook, you still need to fully denature those tough proteins, which tend to transform at higher than normal temperatures.
Click to expand...

My dilemma Bob, is partly an issue of 'when is enough enough'. I am not and do not expect to become a championship winning pitmaster. Its a wonderful thought but with my competing interests I doubt I could make the time to master the art. I therefore set my sights on what I can realistically achieve, namely, preparing good, succulent & tasty food for those who appreciate it. I have a daughter-in-law who would not eat the first cook pork shoulder because it had a pink ring at the edges and part of her childhood brain says "its not cooked" and although she knows in her heart that its fine, her head tells her something else. Her father only eats meat that has been cremated and has no moisture left in it. His wife will eat nothing with a sauce. So somewhere in this real world of real people I have to tread a path between perfect and acceptable but good.

I am particularly interested in your comment about the development of the bark Bob. Assuming that I have to compromise between striving for BBQ excellence but settling for something good, but less, where is the 80:20 rule when it comes to bark? Only one week into this I have learned that the majority of smoke take up is in the early hours/stages (mostly) and something around 135f (although I guess there is a mixed view about that too) but to me the bark is the outer crust made up of the rub, the juices that has left the meat and dried onto the surface and any other smoke/wood flavours, baste, apple spray etc together with the umami effect of heat and meat. Is there something else that makes up the bark which requires going beyond the 80% (time) and into the final 20%, finishing the complete cook in BBQ conditions? I confess my ignorance and genuinely want to try and understand if I can target a 'perfect' outcome for personal consumption (and to share with those who would truly appreciate the extra effort/quality, or should I focus my interest in 'the best I can do' and structure things for those who are simply happy to be fed something which is a cut above what they would normally have access to.

If time permits I would like to master both elements but at the moment I am still adrift between the two ends of that spectrum, partly because I have still a lot to understand.
 
Cooks have pondered that issue since time began. Will probably not solve it here... other than to say, we cook bbq through doneness to tenderness. Here's some good information Chris has on this site regarding the smoke ring. Might be an educational opportunity ;)

For the why and wherefores involved in the bark formation, we need to journey and investigate the Maillard Reaction. Totally akin to the browning one finds on the crust of bread. Here's one thread on this very subject...


Bob
 
Bob Bass said:
Cooks have pondered that issue since time began. Will probably not solve it here... other than to say, we cook bbq through doneness to tenderness. Here's some good information Chris has on this site regarding the smoke ring. Might be an educational opportunity ;)

For the why and wherefores involved in the bark formation, we need to journey and investigate the Maillard Reaction. Totally akin to the browning one finds on the crust of bread. Here's one thread on this very subject...


Bob
Click to expand...

Educational opportunity? Indeed it is! You have added a couple of very interesting tangents for me to explore.

I once spent an interesting two hours at a winery in Queensland Australia listening to the owner explain his obsession with developing a fructose based energy drink which would permit an athlete to replenish energy levels at a metabolic transfer rate second only to alcohol (if I remember correctly). Now, not only do I have some growing understanding why they spray apple juice on low cook meat other than for a touch of moisture, I am about to experiment with gentle roasting of garlic to infuse into a higher cooking temperature oil (sunflower probably) and see if using that as part of the rub makes any significant reduction to the 'black' colour finish, assuming the reduction in garlic solids will have an impact on the colouring. I did note in my research the FDA warnings about botulism related to storage issues and keep times too.

Second tangent is to infuse the rest of the dry rub ingredients into the garlic oil once made and strain that though muslin to remove any solids and just apply the residual oil. Any have experience doing this. Any significant impact on smoke penetration known? Enjoying this brain food almost as much as the BBQ food!
 
Personally I stay far away from placing any oils on the meat surfaces when BBQing. There are so many processes happening during our cooks which involve surface water, down to the molecular level. Water is the vehicle that promotes smoke penetration. It also is the vehicle for salt transmission. And the vehicle for nitrogen oxides transmission used in the creation of the smoke ring. Those processes will be negatively affected due to that oil barrier. Very much like not removing the silver skin before cooking !
 
Bob Bass said:
Personally I stay far away from placing any oils on the meat surfaces when BBQing. There are so many processes happening during our cooks which involve surface water, down to the molecular level. Water is the vehicle that promotes smoke penetration. It also is the vehicle for salt transmission. And the vehicle for nitrogen oxides transmission used in the creation of the smoke ring. Those processes will be negatively affected due to that oil barrier. Very much like not removing the silver skin before cooking !
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Oooh, silver skin such as the backing on rubs? I have always removed that since chewing on it with under cooked oven destroyed ribs.

Too late for the garlic oil test. I just oven roasted a batch of fresh garlic (after peeling, crushing). Equal amounts of oil (sunflower) and garlic pulp and cooked for 10 minutes at each at five different temps namely 125/130/135/140/145. At 145 the garlic had started to turn uniformly light golden brown and the oil had become slightly opaque. I plan a chicken thigh and pork chipolata cook tomorrow on the WSM57 to test the flavour after cooking and will scrape a couple of the thigh skins of fat first and try at different temps to see if I can get a crisp but garlicky bite to it and also to see if is shows any blackening.

Any advice about best temp to aim for for crispy skins, never scraped them before so working blind. Edit : just tested on some left over thighs from yesterday, removed sloppy skins and at 315f they became nice and crispy but shrunk about 50%

I will make another batch and infuse the spices that I would otherwise dry run and cook it together with another that was dry rubbed only and see if I can get decent pictures of how they compare (if the results warrant it) Edit : On butts for this test
 
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Petroni,

Why not buy a commercial smoker and have done with it?

Grilling and smoking for me is the nearest I'll get to cooking on an open fire, which is where all this primeval cooking started.

Playing with fire and eating meat is what I enjoy. Trying to master the basics of getting the right temp by tweaking the vents.
I might stretch to a CB door at some stage for a better seal and better looks. However I know that a metal to metal joint will never be perfect.

The caveman in me stops me wanting to use a "boil in the bag" method of cooking. Sous vide is probably best used to thaw and reheat frozen leftover meat.
 
I believe that the idea that smoke adsorption stops at 135° is incorrect. It is the formation of the smoke ring that stops in the neighborhood of 140° (the actual temp is up for debate). As long as there is smoke, it is being adsorbed by the meat.
 
Gary London said:
Petroni,

Why not buy a commercial smoker and have done with it?

Grilling and smoking for me is the nearest I'll get to cooking on an open fire, which is where all this primeval cooking started.

Playing with fire and eating meat is what I enjoy. Trying to master the basics of getting the right temp by tweaking the vents.
I might stretch to a CB door at some stage for a better seal and better looks. However I know that a metal to metal joint will never be perfect.

The caveman in me stops me wanting to use a "boil in the bag" method of cooking. Sous vide is probably best used to thaw and reheat frozen leftover meat.
Click to expand...

I heard back from Weber UK today with a very different response tack and a replacement door will be forthcoming sometime in March when Weber U.S. stock arrives. A replacement thermostat is also on its way as they agree that 44 degrees f is far too much of an error, so far so good.

I agree Gary that a commercial cooker might be a better solution but better still would be hiring a professional to use it but sharing some of your caveman genes I have to say, where would be the fun in that. The forum said "ask anything" so I have been, maybe I have been a little OTT in my objectives early on, but hell, why not shoot for more sooner :)

As for heating or defrosting frozen stuff in a sous vide, no sir, not ever, no more than you would in a WSM. The sous vide give exact temps for exact periods with outstanding results (but no bark or smoke) so my aim is to combine the best of both if I can.

Al Silverman said:
I believe that the idea that smoke adsorption stops at 135° is incorrect. It is the formation of the smoke ring that stops in the neighborhood of 140° (the actual temp is up for debate). As long as there is smoke, it is being adsorbed by the meat.
Click to expand...

I knew there would be different views but if I set a 135-140 window for experimenting I shouldn't be far off the mark I think. I have two butts sitting in rub for wednesday cook and a brisket to sit under them and will take half of the brisket and one of the butts out at 140 to finish in the sous vide and then compare when they have both been to 203 and then rested for an hour. My guess is the flavours in the WSM half will be more pronounced but the moisture and texture will be interesting to compare too. The results are always so subjective that as with the 135 - 140f smoke take up debate, all I can go on is what I like. I'll some photos and get some others views anyway.
 
Gary London said:
Everyone will be eager to see your photo's and find out how it goes Pet.
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I cheated and did the two butts first but finished both in the oven and as it was almost midnight I immediately vacuum packed it all and put it in the fridge for a gathering of the clan on Sunday. I did a 10lb brisket today (my first) and tried a HH which hit 170 in about 2½ hours and again finished it the oven and rested for 50 minutes before vacuum packing for the same sunday meal. Managed to cut almost 1lb of fat from the joint between the point and flat before cooking but still ended up with 5lbs of meat. Stole three heaped rolls out of this for tea but the rest for Sunday. Will reheat to 170 in the sous vide and test the result. Will be cooking another brisket tomorrow at low and slow with 4-5 hours in the cooker and another 10 hours or so overnight in the oven at 345 with 30 minutes back in the smoker before resting for an hour. Will serve this sunday too and compare with the HH trial. Five cooks in 10 days and I still know almost nothing but I am thoroughly enjoying playing (and eating)
 
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As requested, a couple of photos

Gary London said:
Everyone will be eager to see your photo's and find out how it goes Pet.
Click to expand...

I wanted a 10lb brisket for Saturday for a few family members but the smallest the butcher had was 15½lbs and it somehow seemed inappropriate to cut it and with a little manipulation I got it onto the top cooking grill.

Eventually I had to slice a couple of pounds off to fit it into the resting pan. I tried to make the offcut into burnt ends but it was a complete failure as it was way too lean - any suggestions?.

Everyone overate, raved about it and then stole several pounds of leftovers when the went home, so its back to the butchers.....
 
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HI New Member posted a link to my thread hoping to get some help here. Question this a very well used WSM I bought..I did notice some very small openings in the bottom vents when they were all closed.
MY problem is when I finished my 1st cook on WSM and "ALL" the vents were closed the coals just kept on burning and temp were high, the next morning there was all ash in bowl. Sooo can them tiny openings be causing this and how to fix it?
Thanks Dan
http://tvwbb.com/showthread.php?66109-New-member-Used-WSM-22-1st-cook&p=731776#post731776
 
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Dan, from the pictures it looks like those small openings are from the tabs that stop travel of the vent mechanism. It could be helpful to see the picture of the opposite side of the same vent. Yesterday I was cleaning my WSM and it has the same very small openings and they don't make any difference at all. I saw your other post and that would be a better place to post this picture. That said, all is good. It would be useful to do another cook and document every step of the way. That could help pinpoint your problem. I can tell you this, every cook is different and we have to get our basic process correct so that some of the variables are always the same. My last cook was an epic disaster because I did not pay enough attention to what I was doing. Even though everyone loved the food, I still screwed up and had to replace some parts of my control system due to my lack of attention to detail. I will learn from my mistakes and be better for it. I am wondering if your fire didn't get away from you in the beginning and you were just flustered by that enough that you couldn't get it back under control. That is why I would do another cook and document it with word and pics and post that. Makes it a lot easier to remote troubleshoot. Good luck and many here want to help.
 
DBono said:
HI New Member posted a link to my thread hoping to get some help here. Question this a very well used WSM I bought..I did notice some very small openings in the bottom vents when they were all closed.
MY problem is when I finished my 1st cook on WSM and "ALL" the vents were closed the coals just kept on burning and temp were high, the next morning there was all ash in bowl. Sooo can them tiny openings be causing this and how to fix it?
Thanks Dan
http://tvwbb.com/showthread.php?66109-New-member-Used-WSM-22-1st-cook&p=731776#post731776
Click to expand...

Dan, if in fact you do have air entering your WSM, then it may "smolder" until all fuel is burned. If there is an issue with your vents, you can get a 3 piece replacement set off eBay for around $13. Check your door for leaks also and maybe use a gasket on it. Also, what was the temp when you shut everything down and how much fuel was left to burn? And as Bob pointed out, doing another cook and documenting would be a great way to troubleshoot.
 
At the end of the day, a good WSM should be just like a good woodstove....AIRTIGHT !
That way you can control intake and exhaust.
Then when need be, SHUT DOWN AIRFLOW COMPLETELY !

I don't see how that is negotiable.

And yes, I am shouting occasionally.
(I'm a construction guy, we shout a lot)
Sorry.

;)
 
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Hi All When the cook was done and the all the vents closed temp was 270..After 2 hrs the temp was still at 190. The next morning there were some unbrunt coals. The door is sealed pretty good, bent it back in shape and added some foil..
Will pay closer attention next time I fire it up..Got the WSM basically for long or over night cooks..I do have a RF stickburner, for when I just want to sit around and feed it.
The stickburner wouwld be good during football season, when I'm home allday on Sundays.
Thanks Dan
PS After the next cook I might replace the bottom vents.

 
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