Removing almost all fat from brisket?


 
M

Mike Parrish

TVWBB Member
The briskets I buy are 6-6.5lbs and with the last four or five, I have removed almost all of the fat. I did this because I do not like the fat and resent losing rub/bark/smoke by trimming the fat off before serving. The only difference I can see in my briskets is that I have to watch the amount of rub applied because none of the brisket is being trimmed away. Tenderness and moisture are equal. I smoke briskets at about 220F. until they are 190F. and always use water and keep it full. The theory of the fat being a heat barrier makes no sense to me as it contradicts our idea of "low and slow". Also, I seriously doubt that the fat that is rendered from smoking is actually able to penetrate the muscle fibers of the brisket to impart any discernible difference in either the taste or the texture of the meat. Has anyone else here tried to smoke brisket after removing the fat? Did you notice any difference? Honestly, Fat up/Fat down/no fat: Does it really matter?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Parrish:
I seriously doubt that the fat that is rendered from smoking is actually able to penetrate the muscle fibers of the brisket to impart any discernible difference in either the taste or the texture of the meat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is surely a true statement. If cooked fat-side up, the fat that does render just runs off the edges of the meat; if cooked fat-side down, it just falls away.

I'll leave it to others to comment on your other point about fat being a heat barrier.

Regards,
Chris
 
I'll agree with Chris and add "If cooked fat-side up, the fat that does render" if any... . There is, occasionally, renderable fat on the surface of the meat; usually (with the meat I get) not. The key renderable fat/connective tissue is in the roast.

Cooking approach aside for the moment, the key to successful briskets, imo, has to do with the roast you've got. A very well-marbled roast can take almost anything you dish out--much like a butt. With plenty of renderable possibilities less attention to every detail is fine. The 'problem' with many briskets is that they can be all over the place when it comes to IM fat/tissue. I have had similar experiences to what you describe, Mike, but unfortunately, they are not always replicable with the briskets I get (ungraded; absolutely no consistency in terms of marbling).

I am not quite sure what you mean by "[t]he theory of the fat being a heat barrier makes no sense to me as it contradicts our idea of "low and slow". I do not see where a contradiction occurs but, regardless, I think with many briskets (I can only speak to the ones I get) a barrier on the bottom provided by the fatcap does provide a barrier to heat emanating from the bottom which, if I am doing a poorly-marbled roast, enables the roast to cook 'correctly' without the bottom drying prematurely leaving it virtually unable to hold moisture. The poorly-marbled cuts I've done that have no fatcap end up significantly drier than the ones I've done with some 'protection'.

If you are able to trim all your briskets well and end up with juicy meat that's terrific. I can only do that with the odd one here and there; can only hope that a well-marbled, thick (no tapering), good-sized roast will come my way.
 
I'm not sure I follow exactly what you are trying to say, probably my bad there. As a data point I trim my briskets moderately well and cook fat side down, no turning, and I'm extremely happy with the results. I'd like to leave more fat on because it's so darn tasty but Lipitor 20 is as high as they go and I think I'm driving that 'scrip pedal to the metal as it is.
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I am a complete convert to fat pad down. Not only does it seem to promote more even cooking, but more importantly to me, the best bark is always on the top of any roast. With the fat pad down you will always get more bark, which I love.

Clausen
 
I guess I was trying to to ask if anyone has tried to trim most of the fat from a brisket and find out their objective opinion of the results. The idea of the fat being a heat barrier came from previous posts. Does one become a "complete convert" of a style of cooking because their food came out O.K.?(Just asking clausenk).I would appreciate any feedback on this topic.
 
Mike
This comes from cooking 100s of briskets on more than one style of cooker. Cooking with charcoal and wood has heat spikes as wood and charcoal fires off, during these spikes the outer layers of the brisket takes the brunt of that heat drying it out while the inner conective tissue is still breaking down. To be able to get repeatable results cooking fat down does seem to give me the best results. When you remove the fat before carving I don't find a fatty product.

Kevin hit the nail on the head (as always) with his observation that brisket veries greatly in the amount of internal fat even within the same grade. The more briskets you cook you may come to another conclusion based on the quality of the briskets you cook.

I find the Kobe brisket we are cooking lately that we can remove more fat but must cook them at lower pit temps (205 to 210). At higher pit temps it seems to almost fry the fat and change the flavor print.

In the last 19 months I have lost 105 pounds and all my blood levels have fallen into the normal range without medication. I eat BBQ often and I can say for me that body fat has more to do with blood levels than what you eat within a reasonable diet.

It will be interest to see if you continue to find the same result as time goes on.

Jim
 
I think I gotta go with Kevin K on this one. I don't think a good brisket result is dependent upon the external fat, but rather the internal marbled fat content. As long as the meat is well marbled you could trim away all of the external fat, and if properly cooked, still enjoy a tender, juicy result.

IMO, the whole "fat side up vs. fat side down" debate is nothing more than superstition/old wives tale. It wasn't too long ago when everybody was claiming "fat side up to baste the meat while it cooks." Well, anybody with a pair of eyes can watch the fat run off the outside and drip off. I would guess that the fat cells closest to the muscle may render into the meat, but everything else just drips away. The current "fat side down" dogma postulates protection from the heat emanating from below. The problem with that theory is that everyone knows the cooker is hotter the higher up you measure the temp. Using the top cooking grate as a point of reference, the temp always measures higher above the grate than it does below. Now I'm no Mythbuster, but my guess is that a probe placed one inch below the top cooking grate will register a lower temp than a probe placed one inch above a cooking brisket. I'll buy the whole "heat protection" idea if/when anybody can prove otherwise. In the meantime, I'll be flipping and turning mine so the fat side is both up and down.

The one area nobody seems to mention is the idea of brining the brisket. Sure, there are lots of folks who inject marinades, but how much different is that from plain ol' brining? I've yet to try it, but with the inconsistent briskets and equally inconsistent results, I'm ready to try anything. The worst it could do is improve juiciness, no?

I become a "complete convert" when the science makes sense, and the results provide the proof. Like using sand in the pan -- it makes sense, and the results prove it. After all of the briskets I've cooked, I'm convinced it's all about the marbling. The science makes sense, and the results are starting to prove it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The current "fat side down" dogma postulates protection from the heat emanating from below. The problem with that theory is that everyone knows the cooker is hotter the higher up you measure the temp. Using the top cooking grate as a point of reference, the temp always measures higher above the grate than it does below. Now I'm no Mythbuster, but my guess is that a probe placed one inch below the top cooking grate will register a lower temp than a probe placed one inch above a cooking brisket. I'll buy the whole "heat protection" idea if/when anybody can prove otherwise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin S
I would agree if your cooking in a sealed oven but we cook in a cooker that moves air, that moving air does dry meat out.
Jim
 
Perhaps we need to re-frame the debate--or at least re-state it.

Rather than saying that fatcap down protects the meat from the heat, we should be saying (apropos of Jim's statement above) that fatcap down protects the meat from the heated air flowing up to and along the underside of the meat. Though the heat might be the cooler, warmer, or the same (or close enough) on the topside of the meat the air-flow is significantly less.

In conventional 'classic' roasting (in an oven) one uses a roasting pan just a bit larger than the cut of meat for best results. Too large a pan messes up the air-flow; the meat cooks, but the look is usually less appealing and the texture of the surface suffers. A similar thing occurs when cooking a small (i.e., not tall, like a tenderloin) roast in a high-sided pan. (Some air-flow is required.)

Assume you have the correct size pan and assume you have a convection oven. For roasts normally cooked at higher temps to low internals (tenderloin, say--or a rib roast), putting the roast on a rack (as you should, regardless) and turning on the convection fans will give the meat a wonderful exterior all around at finish. But--and this is what is interesting, imo--you cannot do this with a roast cooked at lower temps, neither a large roast cooked to a low internal (a bottom round, say, for 'roast beef') nor a smaller roast cooked to higher internals (like one cut from the chuck). Even though the temp is low (and even though all would be fine if cooked at the same temp without the confection fans going) the constant buffeting of the meat's surface with the heated air will dry the meat out considerably because the cooking time is long. It works well in the first scenario because it is a relatively short cook.

This is why I think fatcap down is better for briskets in a WSM. Of course this is just one variable of many, the key one being the hunk of meat you're starting with, how well-marbled it is or isn't. I still think, however, that the various (and varying) effects of one variable can be amplified or mitigated by the other variables which is why I said in my upthread post that I think that with a really great brisket to start with, less attention to the other details (fat up or down; 225, 235, 245 for a cooktemp; trimmed 'excessively' or untrimmed; foil or not) is possible. I've cooked a number of briskets, inconsistent though they be, both ways. Fat down seems to give me better results when controlling for the other variables (as much as I can which is difficult since I get inconsistent briskets). Though some things are obvious by look and feel, it is hard to know exactly what you're getting (if buying a conventional 'select' or 'choice' brisket) till you're midway through the cook.

I do believe it is all about the marbling. Fat down removes an issue for me, and I can play with the other issues as best I can. I do not find flipping warranted in a vertical cooker and only needed (possibly) in some horizontal cookers. (I used to flip very often cooking in open pits but there are other things going on there.)

It does not surprise me, Jim, that you're finding a lower cook temp for the Kobes to be better. Kobe's internal fat is usually a bit 'softer', better dispersed, better striated.

Marinating beef is preferred over brining for a couple reasons. One is that beef turns grey when brined (although saltpeter will prevent that, it is not necessary if you don't care about the color), another is that some cuts of beef don't take to brine very well (the nature of the proteins and the structure) and get mushy.

Jim--Congrats on the 105-lb loss. That's terrific.

Kevin--I am headed your way. If the cards fall right and if I can find parking, I'll be in the East Bay sometime Saturday. It's been a while and I'm looking forward to it.
 
Jim-

105 lbs!? You're not gonna tell us you got a divorce, right?
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I mean, 105 lbs is a whole person! GOOD JOB.

Kev-

Your point is well stated. And while I thoroughly understand the effects convected heat may have on a brisket, I think the amount of air flow inside a WSM is so minute it is inconsequential. With your background I'm sure you're aware that in a traditional convection oven the fans move a lot of air, and the airflow is directed. In contrast, the airflow in a WSM is created through the thermal lift of heated air moving out of the top of the cooker, replacement air is drawn into the cooker through lateral facing lower vents in a random non-directional flow. What's more, during most of the long cooking process, the vents are mostly shut, further reducing the miniscule convection properties. Were the convection characteristics as relevent as some would believe, it would be difficult - if not impossible - to smoke delicate items like fish or cheeses, as the bottom would crisp, burn, or dry out (or melt), and these delicate foods would require frequent turning to prevent one-sided cooking. This simply isn't the case.

In addition, the coals situated directly in front of the incoming air vents don't appear to burn any faster or hotter than those in the middle of the ring, because there simply isn't enough air flow, directed or otherwise. To use a clumsy analogy; some would posit that the air flow (and heat) is akin to the stream of water from a garden hose, mostly focused and directed. I would argue it's more like a rising tide, broad and unfocused. In fact, aside from the initial startup phase (when vents are wide open), I would say the WSM is closer to a traditional oven than a convection oven.

Irony -- today I watched "BBQ with Bobby Flay," and he was doing a piece on the "BBQ University" classes offered by Steve Raichlen. During the show, Steve admonished a guy for placing his brisket "fat side down," and instructed him to place it fat side up so the rendered fat would "baste the meat."
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Honestly, I'm beginning to believe that the single most important factor in a successful brisket cook happens at the meat counter, and unless steps are taken to ensure a moist, juicy result (injecting, marinades, brining, etc), it's a crap shoot. Bringing the thread back on track, a super-trimmed brisket has all the potential to be as bad or good as the meat will allow. One may increase their odds of a successful cook by playing with the variables, I just happen to feel the whole "fat up/down" thing is way overrated, and is about last on the list of things to consider.

Off topic- I'll be away until Sunday afternoon, but if/when you're in the neighborhood, email me at mrkevinator(at)excite.com. I'd love to meet up with the man who's provided me with so many delicious recipes I can't count 'em all. If nothing else, a quick meet-n-greet would be nice. You can get a rig up into the hills of my neighborhood, but you've gotta know the route to make a loop, otherwise there's no turning around in many spots. Or let me know where you're parked... I'll bring you some of my smoked salmon.
 
Jim, congrats on the weight loss! That's awesome. I guess we really can trust a skinny cook now!

Regarding the "fat side" debate...In my search for nailing the perfect cook of brisket, I found that fat up or down didn't seem to make much difference. Barring the actual brisket you can get your hands on, IMO, it seems that cooking your brisket to the right temp is key. I've overcooked, uncooked, and got maybe one or two, just how I liked it. I've been trying to avoid foiling, but I think that might help in retaining the juices and moisture during the last stages of the cook as well.

IMO, this is what makes BBQ cooking great...the journey, not just the end results...
 
Kevin--

Raichlen should know better.

I am kicking myself for not FoodSaving some brisket from Saturday's lunch--I could trade for your salmon. It was not my brisket to save, though I cooked it and it was very good.

The convection oven analogy is, perhaps, a bit much, and I would agree that a WSM is closer to a conventional oven, but I do think that the air movement (such as it is) on the underside of the meat can make a difference. That seems to be the case in my experience with brisket. But certainly, what meat you have in hand and at what temp you plan to cook it are far more important. And, as Erich notes, when to pull it. When I was in experimenting mode the briskets I did down were better than the ones I did up. While there's no way the briskets were identical the other two main variables (cook and pull temps) were similar.

If I can get rid of this trailer maybe I can tool around and locate a killer brisket to present to you.
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Erich--

I foil and I don't. Much depends on time issues. The one I did Saturday evening needed to be ready for an early lunch. It cooked at 236-250 grate (mostly at 242-245), rose to the 150s (internal) rather quickly then eased up to 165 slowly. It then dropped to 161 as is common, and plateaued in the low 160s for a long time. When it finally moved to 165 I kept an eye on it; when it lingered there I foiled (flipping it fat up) and returned it to the cooker. I pulled it at 188 and rested it, fat up, for 2 hours. It was very moist, tender, not pot roast-y at all, with a great smokering. This was a 10.5-lb Choice cut (at the better end of the Choice scale I'd say), but I've used the same procedure to speed up the finish before with different briskets with good results. When time is not a factor and I've a nice Choice I don't usually foil unless I'm needing juices for sauce; with ungraded and Selects I do.
 
Most times I don't turn my butts or briskets when cooking but on the occasions that I do, I've noticed a definite difference in the bark from the top side verses the bottom. Lot's of bark on the top not very much on the bottom. The water pan (in my case, a Guru user, filled and covered with foil, no water), does what its supposed to do and that's act as a heat shield from the fires down below.

Also, it seems to me that the air flow is mostly up the sides and very little actually makes contact with the bottom side of the meat.

Of course this observation doesn't mean squat when it comes to cookers other than WSM's.

When it comes to the outcome of the cook, I agree 100% that the most important factor is the quality of the meat. I usually cook CAB brisket flats and have never had one turn out dry or tough, without foil and fat side up. The one time I tried a full packer from Wallyworld, I was very dissapointed.

Al
 
Thank's to all who have posted a reply. The origin of this post was to inquire about my observations of the results from smokes of my last four or five briskets where I have removed all, or most of the fat from a brisket. The briskets I buy are Choice Angus. Thanks to Kevin K. for making sure I and we take the quality of meat into consideration(Big Factor!). Thanks also to Jim M. Who has provided trusted information from countless smokes. This post has transformed into a "fat side up or fat side down" debate, which is a deviation from the original post. My goal of the post was to see if anyone has taken most, or all of the fat off of a brisket before smoking, and to share the results with the members.
 
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