Opening up orifice size on NG Genesis II

[LMichaels]

Bottom line here is you're treading on dangerous ground, you will not find one person who will endorse what you're wanting to do. Bottom line is some grills are designed to be safe to run higher temps and BTU. Take my Wolf. That thing goes though so much gas if I turn it to full bore I can see the bearings burning in my gas meter. But it's bone stock so I am sure Wolf designed it to run how it does. Of course it is all (every last bit) very heavy gauge solid 304 or maybe 316 stainless steel. I would not want to run anything made of aluminum THAT hot.
I have taken VERY much of my time explaining the ins and outs of gas and it's properties and conversion processes, even had members PM or email me for information and then after all the warnings turn around and come on this forum and blow the info off then get pi$$y when someone unloads on them a little.
Chris A has even been kind enough and taken I am sure a HUGE chunk of his time compiling information (much from what I have shared over the years) and put it into a concise "sticky".
At thing point if you want to risk the safety of your property and or your own personal well being well.........................................go ahead. I would say though don't be coming back here doubting the advice you've been given to this point with "oh do you have a photo?" Either our word is/should be good enough or it is not.
Not trying to sound harsh but you've kinda beat this whole thing to death. So either take the good advice you've been given or don't.

 

[Tom Li]

Did a search on "melted cookbox"

melted E-310 cookbox?

I have a 3-year-old E-310, and a couple of days ago I discovered the front bottom of the cookbox had bowed or warped down, like it melted. Grill still works fine, but it's a bear to get the drip pan out. So, a few questions: Anybody seen this before? I did have a flare up a few days ago, but...

tvwbb.com

Also, there was a picture recently of a split burner, like it had split along the seam...but from what I can see, these burners are seamless...but you never know what you're going to get with aftermarket off-shore manufactured parts.

Thanks for the link. It is good that the CS took care of it. I hope the CS is still the same these days

I find that on a lot of the grills I pick up for rehabbing. It was like that on the Genesis Platinum that I just tore into today. I don't think they even weld that seem, It is just stamped and crimped. A lot of members have seen the bulge on the side of cook boxes. My guess is that the trashed end of a burner is the culprit most of the time.

The new GS4 burner in the Genesis II seems like a completely different design from the original crimped tube. Lets hope nothing similar would happen on the new burner

I was going to say, also, a little off-topic, but in the early '70s one of the guys I grew up with bought a T-bucket roadster with a 427 tri-power in it. It only had rear brakes, no fenders, but street-legal at the time because of the weight. I never rode in it, but there's a reason they don't put that much horsepower in a car that weighs less than 2000lbs.

EDIT: Oh, I gotta laugh...one of the toolmakers at my last job had one of those crazy motorcycles with a 350 Chevy in it. I laugh whenever I think about it.

and there are formula one cars
To some, pushing the envelope is part of the fun of modding. But of course, safety first and hence I am doing all the research I can ahead of time and have a fire extinguisher ready

Weber NG grill owners manuals specify the NG pressure. From page 9 of the Genesis II E-210 • E/S-310 • SE-310 • E-410 • SE-410 • E-610 manual:

General Specifications

• Two burner and three burner grills are designed to operate at 7" of water column pressure (.2526 psi).
• Four burner and six burner grills are designed to operate at 4" of water column pressure (.1444 psi).

I assume that since most homes are expected to have 7"WC, there must be a built-in regulator to step down the pressure in 4- and 6-burner grills.

Thanks for finding out that information! I found this manual (40435102), may be a different model year, page 8 says 4 burner is at 4.5" of water column pressure. I guess I will have to get the serial number after i get the grill and call CS up for the correct manual, then measure the existing orifice size to confirm.

And when I look carefully in the exploded parts diagram, the 310 has the direct hose connection into the manifold, but the 410 has an extra piece between the 10' hose and the connecting hose to the manifold. That looks like a regulator to me.

Here's one but the pic is gone.

Thank you. shooting flame out the lid is crazy.... really wonder what happened there

 

[Tom Li]

Bottom line here is you're treading on dangerous ground, you will not find one person who will endorse what you're wanting to do and last. Bottom line is some grills are designed to be safe to run higher temps and BTU. Take my Wolf. That thing goes though so much gas if I turn it to full bore I can see the bearings burning in my gas meter. But it's bone stock so I am sure Wolf designed it to run how it does. Of course it is all (every last bit) very heavy gauge solid 304 or maybe 316 stainless steel. I would not want to run anything made of aluminum THAT hot.
I have taken VERY much of my time explaining the ins and outs of gas and it's properties and conversion processes, even had members PM or email me for information and then after all the warnings turn around and come on this forum and blow the info off then get pi$$y when someone unloads on them a little.
Chris A has even been kind enough and taken I am sure a HUGE chunk of his time compiling information (much from what I have shared over the years) and put it into a concise "sticky".
At thing point if you want to risk the safety of your property and or your own personal well being well.........................................go ahead. I would say though don't be coming back here doubting the advice you've been given to this point with "oh do you have a photo?" Either our word is/should be good enough or it is not.
Not trying to sound harsh but you've kinda beat this whole thing to death. So either take the good advice you've been given or don't.

Thank you very much for your reply. I have definitely read through the information that have been posted so far and have taken in every single bit of it. I understand the risk and I am trying to collect as much information as I can to identify all the area that may fail and then decide if I have the resources to engineer those risk away by doing the mod properly, with all risk considered, or simply to abandon the project as it is not feasible with the resource I can get my hands on or make economical sense.

I am not here looking for endorsement or approval, but rather trying to hear from all the experience and knowledge people have on this forum so I can have good understanding of what are the possible paths of failure so I can engineer a solution or call it a day and keep using my cast iron pan for real sear when I need it.

On the side note, may I ask which wolf grill you have? I am very interested to see how they are designed for that application

 

[Tom Li]

I would say though don't be coming back here doubting the advice you've been given to this point with "oh do you have a photo?" Either our word is/should be good enough or it is not.

Oh and when I ask for picture, by no means I am doubting the truthfulness of the information. As an engineer, I can see a lot more information on what led to the failure when I have a picture on hand so I can figure out what I can do to prevent it from happening.
I apologize if I sounded the way I did not mean to

 

[LMichaels]

My Wolf is an older model. It's a 48" 6 main burners and one large infrared rotisserie burner. I am unsure of the model number. From front to back it's as deep as a Genesis is wide. To give you an idea. I have never bought parts for it other than I gave Dave Santana it's measurements and he made me custom grates.
As for how it's designed. It's just VERY big and VERY heavy. Just the lid weighs what a Genesis weighs FWIW. It rides on 4 large 6" industrial casters (wheels) because it weighs in excess of 400lbs. So it will not melt down like a Weber anytime soon. Even so I would NOT mod it. Grills are not formula 1 cars. And they typically sit on large wooden decks. A small mistake turns into a HUGE disaster in a heartbeat.
If you're truly an engineer than you should know Weber designed in safety factors to help ensure not melting down.

 

[Tom Li]

My Wolf is an older model. It's a 48" 6 main burners and one large infrared rotisserie burner. I am unsure of the model number. From front to back it's as deep as a Genesis is wide. To give you an idea. I have never bought parts for it other than I gave Dave Santana it's measurements and he made me custom grates.
As for how it's designed. It's just VERY big and VERY heavy. Just the lid weighs what a Genesis weighs FWIW. It rides on 4 large 6" industrial casters (wheels) because it weighs in excess of 400lbs. So it will not melt down like a Weber anytime soon. Even so I would NOT mod it. Grills are not formula 1 cars. And they typically sit on large wooden decks. A small mistake turns into a HUGE disaster in a heartbeat.
If you're truly an engineer than you should know Weber designed in safety factors to help ensure not melting down.

Thank you for your reply. Is it something like this in the video?

I may go to a high end appliance store and just take a look at the internal and see how they are constructed.
It is great that there are grills out there that are built to last with the high performance like wolf, crown, coyote, etc , just at this point I cannot justify to spend the extra cash for it.

At the moment, all I am thinking to do is cranking it up from 12k to 15k btu, which weber itself has done in the genesis II LX model. I will definitely pay very close attention and probably going to attach a few thermo-couples on the cookbox near the burner just to monitor how hot the cookbox is getting. The insight on the risk of aluminum cookbox melting is definitely something I am going to pay special attention to.

And of course, I will be testing it with all brick/stone flooring and with a proper fire extinguisher around. The extra safety factor is something that we take advantage of during modding to squeeze out more performance if there were no safety factor the moment I do anything to it it is going to fail LOL Just like how some people like to mod their car and bike, for me it is modding cooking instruments LOL And of course, I will NEVER sell or give this to anyone else.

Now I am just hoping the deal with come through on Tuesday......... CAD$500 for a practically brand new E-410

 

[LMichaels]

No it's a larger model than that 6 main burners across. IIRC about 70K BTU if all 6 are cranked maybe 80K The one in the video is a newer model. They don't make mine any more. Honestly Weber does a pretty fine job of engineering performance into their grills along with efficiency. Why not just leave well enough alone?

 

[Chris Allingham]

Weber NG grill owners manuals specify the NG pressure. From page 9 of the Genesis II E-210 • E/S-310 • SE-310 • E-410 • SE-410 • E-610 manual:

General Specifications

• Two burner and three burner grills are designed to operate at 7" of water column pressure (.2526 psi).
• Four burner and six burner grills are designed to operate at 4" of water column pressure (.1444 psi).

I assume that since most homes are expected to have 7"WC, there must be a built-in regulator to step down the pressure in 4- and 6-burner grills.

And does anyone know why a four or six burner grill requires less gas pressure than a two or three burner grill?

 

[Tom Li]

No it's a larger model than that 6 main burners across. IIRC about 70K BTU if all 6 are cranked maybe 80K The one in the video is a newer model. They don't make mine any more. Honestly Weber does a pretty fine job of engineering performance into their grills along with efficiency. Why not just leave well enough alone?

understood

as in why...... for most people the grill is just an appliance... but for us, the grill is a toy and a hobby, much like how people like modding cars

And does anyone know why a four or six burner grill requires less gas pressure than a two or three burner grill?

From my understanding is that because 4 or 6 burner has larger difference in distance between gas travelling from the closest burner hole to the furthest, using the house pressure without regulating will generate a larger differential in gas pressure between closest hole and furthest hole, thus uneven heat. By installing a regulator that reduces the pressure, it actually allows a larger flow of gas to support the extra burners, and have less pressure differential between the closest and furthest burner hole. Thus creating a more even flame across. Technically it is best to use a regulator for all sizes, but I think their engineering/testing determines that when it is only 3 burners it doesnt matter as much so they can save some cost by not installing a regulator.

 

[Bruce]

From my understanding is that because 4 or 6 burner has larger difference in distance between gas travelling from the closest burner hole to the furthest, using the house pressure without regulating will generate a larger differential in gas pressure between closest hole and furthest hole, thus uneven heat. By installing a regulator that reduces the pressure, it actually allows a larger flow of gas to support the extra burners, and have less pressure differential between the closest and furthest burner hole. Thus creating a more even flame across. Technically it is best to use a regulator for all sizes, but I think their engineering/testing determines that when it is only 3 burners it doesnt matter as much so they can save some cost by not installing a regulator.

I totally believe all that, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it.

 

[Chris Allingham]

I found this manual (40435102), may be a different model year

Link to the manual I was referring to: https://weber.mizecx.com/retrieve/s3/knowledge/WEBER_LG/40421146/40421146.pdf

I would agree, that's a regulator.

 

[Chris Allingham]

Why not just leave well enough alone?

You can say that about anything. I understand the desire to discourage such mods, but you expressed your opinion and from what I've read it sounds like Tom is "eyes wide open" about the risks. Let's sit back and watch what he does.

 

[Bruce]

Chris: You sound like you have a bowl of popcorn and are sitting back waiting for the train wreck to happen.

 

[Tom Li]

Link to the manual I was referring to: https://weber.mizecx.com/retrieve/s3/knowledge/WEBER_LG/40421146/40421146.pdf

I would agree, that's a regulator.

Thanks. I took a more detailed comparison between the two. From the look of the handle bar, that manual seems to be for the Genesis II 1.0, which has the old lid handle bar, which is the correct version for the one I am getting.
The picture in the manual I found had the new version rounded handle bar, which belongs to the Genesis II 2.0 that came out 2019 I believe.

You can say that about anything. I understand the desire to discourage such mods, but you expressed your opinion and from what I've read it sounds like Tom is "eyes wide open" about the risks. Let's sit back and watch what he does.

Chris: You sound like you have a bowl of popcorn and are sitting back waiting for the train wreck to happen.

I have the same feeling too.... for a train wreck like this, popcorn is not enough. At least get some brisket going

 

[Chris Allingham]

Chris: You sound like you have a bowl of popcorn and are sitting back waiting for the train wreck to happen.

Not wishing anyone harm! We love our new members.

 

[Tom Li]

I just watched a couple grill cleaning videos and noticed that the cookbox is mostly heated at the end of the flavorizer bar, and probably the same on the other end


Since I am going to crank up the heat, I am thinking to get a sheet of S/S and slide in between the cookbox and the flavorizer bar, that should be able to keep some heat from hitting the cast aluminum

 

[Bruce]

Probably a good idea, because yah, a lot of the heat does get funneled out of each end of the flavo bars.

 

[Tom Li]

Got the grill home today!
The regulator is marked 4.5 on it, so I think it means 4.5 in water column pressure.
Now I need to replace the old 3/8 QD on the gas pipe with the 1/2 QD that this hose needs.....
Not sure why they chose to use 1/2" hose as 3/8" should support at lest 50K BTU, and this grill is only 48k stock
But oh well, that gives me room to hot rod it

I am going to get thinner cut of steak (1/2 or 3/4 thick rib steak?) and see how well done the inside would be when i get a good sear outside, then I will decide if the hot rod project is a go or not LOL

 

[Chris Allingham]

Note to self...add popcorn to shopping list.

 

[Ed P]

Hold My
Beer

And Watch
This


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