Dave from Denver
TVWBB Wizard
Lots of good info and discussion in this thread, nice work guys.
Not a good first attempt with pulled pork
- Thread starter Joel Oliva
- Start date
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
J your braising technique is basically the same idea as foiling with some juice added which is a bbq technique as apposed to braising in the oven which is a roasting technique. I'm with Kevin in regards to learning to do it on the smoker from start to finish. If someone is going to get discouraged and quit smoking after 1 failure than they probably shouldn't be doing bbq. I've got some spares which I'm going to try to do totally different and I figure I have a 50/50 chance of destroying a rack our 2 to get it right.Big part of learning is "learning from your mistakes".
Joel Oliva
TVWBB Member
Thanks guys! Now I took the cap off completely off the butt, would that have mattered at all? Also, when i refilled the water in the water bowl the water was pretty cold and not warm/hot. Would that also make any difference? I'm just trying to remember everything that I did during this cook to see if it would make any difference and to learn more.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Jay--
Yes, we are.
I'm not focused so much on the braising step as I am stopping the smoking part of the cook just before the point when learning what done looks and feels like has a chance to occur, and changing to some other process. I understand your point now but still feel differently. I don't think learning what done feels and looks like - especially if one fails, asks questions, then receives answers, as has occurred with Joel - is all that difficult, especially with butts. But I do see your motivational point.
The thing I think trips many new barbecuers up - and that might have tripped up Joel - is the focus on internal temps. This and other boards, numerous websites, numerous recipes either mention or focus on a specific 'done' temp, so it's no wonder new cooks focus on it. Internal temp is immaterial, but that's hard for many - even seasoned cooks - to grasp.
Yes, we are.
I'm not focused so much on the braising step as I am stopping the smoking part of the cook just before the point when learning what done looks and feels like has a chance to occur, and changing to some other process. I understand your point now but still feel differently. I don't think learning what done feels and looks like - especially if one fails, asks questions, then receives answers, as has occurred with Joel - is all that difficult, especially with butts. But I do see your motivational point.
The thing I think trips many new barbecuers up - and that might have tripped up Joel - is the focus on internal temps. This and other boards, numerous websites, numerous recipes either mention or focus on a specific 'done' temp, so it's no wonder new cooks focus on it. Internal temp is immaterial, but that's hard for many - even seasoned cooks - to grasp.
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Joel adding cold water to your water pan would have lengthened your cook.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Originally posted by Joel Oliva:
Thanks guys! Now I took the cap off completely off the butt, would that have mattered at all? Also, when i refilled the water in the water bowl the water was pretty cold and not warm/hot. Would that also make any difference? I'm just trying to remember everything that I did during this cook to see if it would make any difference and to learn more.
No. I don't trim butts at all, but trimming won't make a difference in terms of done. The cook might be shortened a bit, but it won't affect interior moisture levels appreciably.
Adding cold water during the cook will usually lower cooktemps - until the fuel has a chance to heat the water (which, btw, means more fuel usage), lengthening cook time, as Bob notes.
Kevin,
You gave me some great tips on my first briskets. They didn't mean anything on the first cook because I every time I stuck the probe in the meat, I kept thinking is this probe tender? And then on top of that I was wondering if the meat was over cooked. So I foiled it with some water and finished it off. One of my better briskets... That concept of cook to doneness is not easy to grasp, and as a matter of fact once I get a temp of 160, I am only checking for doneness/tenderness.
But the thing you did was introduce me to 'probe tender' so on my subsequent cooks, I figured it out. But had that first brisket came out cruddy, not sure I would have wanted to try "the most difficult piece of beef to cook" again. But that crutch did enough for me to think that it had potential (and my first brisket was dry, but it was tender).
Love the discussion, and thanks for the tips you offer up.
Jay
Most of what I could add has already been said, however I cannot stress enough that cooker and meat temps are highly over-rated. As long as you are 225-300ish your butts, briskets and ribs will turn out great if you know what to look and feel for. Higher temps = shorter done windows lower temps = longer done windows. In my opinion new comers should stay around 275 or less vent temps and learn to watch for doness not temps. The notion that removing the lid adds a lot of cook time is simply false on the WSM's. You can open and check for tenderness and looks and within a couple minutes the cook temps are back to where they were, if anything leaving the lid off too long will increase temps because of giving the fuel air.
Anyway here is a video for new comers to watch for what tenderness looks like on a butt:
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9319/lg6.mp4
Anyway here is a video for new comers to watch for what tenderness looks like on a butt:
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9319/lg6.mp4
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Bravo. Really, bravo.
I have written about probe tenderness - as many others have - but to have a video that clearly shows it, well, that's wonderful.
Your other points, that cooker and meat temps are overrated, and, importantly, that newcomers are probably better sticking to temps 275 or below, are spot on. The windows of doneness are narrower when temps get much higher than this, and in the beginning finding done within the window can be, shall we say, stressful, especially if one is not quite sure what one is looking for. The video helps immeasurably.
I agree that removing the lid on the WSM to check meat feel, temps, or what-have-you is not an issue. (And if you lift the lid straight up with one hand, holding the lid directly over the cooker, just high enough to do whatever you are doing (checking the meat, etc.), it seems to help even more. Regardless, if the lid removal is fairly brief, temps usually return in short order to a reasonable level.)
I have written about probe tenderness - as many others have - but to have a video that clearly shows it, well, that's wonderful.
Your other points, that cooker and meat temps are overrated, and, importantly, that newcomers are probably better sticking to temps 275 or below, are spot on. The windows of doneness are narrower when temps get much higher than this, and in the beginning finding done within the window can be, shall we say, stressful, especially if one is not quite sure what one is looking for. The video helps immeasurably.
I agree that removing the lid on the WSM to check meat feel, temps, or what-have-you is not an issue. (And if you lift the lid straight up with one hand, holding the lid directly over the cooker, just high enough to do whatever you are doing (checking the meat, etc.), it seems to help even more. Regardless, if the lid removal is fairly brief, temps usually return in short order to a reasonable level.)
Joel Oliva
TVWBB Member
Glen that video totally gives me the true visual of how a butt would look when it's done. Thank you sooo much for posting that link.
My butt did look and felt JUST like the video 4 hours prior to when I actually pulled it out which was at the 14hr mark. (i pulled it out at the 17th hour)
Fellas, I think it was well over.
I mean, take a look at the very first photo i posted (17hour mark)on the first page compared to that video. Then take a look at my second photo (14hour mark)that i posted and compare it to the video. Doesn't the second photo (14th hour mark) that i've posted look more like the video? yay? nay? anyways...that butt is over with. I totally learned a lot from this post alone. Thank you all for your support in helping me understand more of how to become a guru smoker like you all.
Till the next butt...i bid you great smoking and great tasting BBQ!!
Keep posting here if you wish...I'd luv to learn as much as I can. I may even have more questions.
My butt did look and felt JUST like the video 4 hours prior to when I actually pulled it out which was at the 14hr mark. (i pulled it out at the 17th hour)
Fellas, I think it was well over.
Keep posting here if you wish...I'd luv to learn as much as I can. I may even have more questions.
Jerry N.
TVWBB Emerald Member
See, once again, I have to give a nod to the Thermapen. Recognize that the Thermapen is also a very nice skewer. So you learn feel and temp at the same time. I poke my butt a few times and I see the temp and I feel the tenderness (or not). I've learned a lot by relying on the Thermapen to validate what I'm feeling. I probably could tell doneness without a thermometer now, but in the beginning, I wouldn't have known.
Thermapen = Learning Tool and all around great thermometer.
Thermapen = Learning Tool and all around great thermometer.
Jeff Calhoun
TVWBB Fan
I work with Joel and turned him on to the WSM and this forum. He's got a lot of good advise. I've never had this much trouble with a port butt in the past but it looks like either his Thermapen is off or he he got some stubborn butts.
I'm thinking they were over cooked by the description and the pictures. Is it possible to over cook the butts if the Thermapen was indeed accurate and never reached 180+ degrees? I'm still a little confused how this can happen.
I'm thinking they were over cooked by the description and the pictures. Is it possible to over cook the butts if the Thermapen was indeed accurate and never reached 180+ degrees? I'm still a little confused how this can happen.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Joel-- Yes, your pic looks like the butt in the vid. It's a still rather than a vid so hard to say, but yes.
Jeff-- Internal temp doesn't have much to do with doneness. The therm could be accurate and the butt could be done, even if the number on the therm does not equate with 'done'. Tenderness is the result of sufficient cooking time relative to cooking temp and the meat in question. It is not the result of achieving a particular internal temp. Internal temp does not cause tenderness, nor does it necessarily reflect tenderness.
Jeff-- Internal temp doesn't have much to do with doneness. The therm could be accurate and the butt could be done, even if the number on the therm does not equate with 'done'. Tenderness is the result of sufficient cooking time relative to cooking temp and the meat in question. It is not the result of achieving a particular internal temp. Internal temp does not cause tenderness, nor does it necessarily reflect tenderness.
jeff davidson
TVWBB Super Fan
great post! I do find it ironic that you're probing for doneness with ...a meat thermometer.
JSMcdowell
TVWBB All-Star
Joel,
Think of this first pork butt experience as an excuse to try another one this weekend.
Using the already provided information will really help you make excellent pork the second time around. I would also keep a log (I use the one from this site) and keep track of what works and does not work for you. My cooking is much more consistent because I have kept logs of most of my cooks and can see what I did right and wrong.
As for the temps, I used to go by internal but now it's all about the probe tender method. I do use a meat probe to watch the temps so I know when to start checking for tender. I've had tender butts at 190-195, and I have had to go to 200 on others, so like others have said there is now set temp for when to take it off.
Now as for your thermapen reading 180, I can only think of 2 things that caused this.
First, check your calibration using the method below. If it does not read correctly, call up Thermoworks and ask for it to be replaced or fixed. They are very helpful people. You may not really need it for pork butts, but you spent $100 on it, so you want it accurate.
Second, at what point did you add the cool water to the pan ? I once added cool water to a pan and it took awhile for the cook to recover. The meat actually dropped in temp (it was 1 butt on a the bottom rack). Maybe you actually got up to a higher internal temp but by adding the water slowed things down and reversed the temps a bit. This is an example of why keeping a log helps, I noted that I added cool tap water and realized NEVER to do that again.
I am now starting to cook without water on butts, but always add hot water so that you are not using up the heat to warm water. Water is great when you are learning as it evens out the temperature range.
Checking thermometer accuracy:
Performing an Ice Bath Test
An ice bath test is the easiest way to test the accuracy of any thermometer, but only if it is created properly.
Internet videos notwithstanding, an ice bath is NOT just a glass of Ice water.*
Follow this four step process carefully to create a proper ice bath:
Step 1: Fill a large glass to the very top with ice (crushed ice is preferred but not required).
Step 2: Slowly add very cold water until the water reaches about one half inch (1 centimeter) below the top of the ice.
Note: If the ice floats up off the very bottom of the glass at all, the ice bath may be warmer than 32°F (0°C). Pour off any excess water.
Step 3: Gently stir the ice mixture and let it sit for a minute or two.
Step 4: Insert the probe of the thermometer being tested about 2 inches (5 centimeters) into the ice mixture and gently stir while you take your reading.
*In our experience, an improperly made ice bath can be off the ice point as much as 15°F (8°C).
Note: Be sure to keep stirring gently. If the tip of your thermometer probe comes to rest against a chunk of ice, it will show a temperature below the ice point and if it comes to rest against the sides or bottom of the glass, it may read higher. Your thermometer will continue to drop till it reads close to 32°F.
Performing a Boiling Water Test
Boiling water tests are even trickier to perform correctly than ice baths. Water boils at 212°F (100°C) at sea level but only at sea level. The change in atmospheric pressure at elevations above or below sea level alters the temperature at which water boils. We provide a Boiling Point Calculator that will walk you through the steps to know what the current temperature of boiling water is at your location. You can find the online calculator at www.thermoworks.com/boilingpointcalculator. Once you have the target temperature written down, you are ready to begin your boiling water test:
Place 4 inches of water on the stove top, once a rolling boil begins insert the probe 2 inches down. The read out will rise until it reaches close to the temperature given to you by the calculator.
If your thermometer is reading correctly in either or both of these tests it will also be accurate over its entire range of temperatures in any food or liquid.
Think of this first pork butt experience as an excuse to try another one this weekend.
Using the already provided information will really help you make excellent pork the second time around. I would also keep a log (I use the one from this site) and keep track of what works and does not work for you. My cooking is much more consistent because I have kept logs of most of my cooks and can see what I did right and wrong.
As for the temps, I used to go by internal but now it's all about the probe tender method. I do use a meat probe to watch the temps so I know when to start checking for tender. I've had tender butts at 190-195, and I have had to go to 200 on others, so like others have said there is now set temp for when to take it off.
Now as for your thermapen reading 180, I can only think of 2 things that caused this.
First, check your calibration using the method below. If it does not read correctly, call up Thermoworks and ask for it to be replaced or fixed. They are very helpful people. You may not really need it for pork butts, but you spent $100 on it, so you want it accurate.
Second, at what point did you add the cool water to the pan ? I once added cool water to a pan and it took awhile for the cook to recover. The meat actually dropped in temp (it was 1 butt on a the bottom rack). Maybe you actually got up to a higher internal temp but by adding the water slowed things down and reversed the temps a bit. This is an example of why keeping a log helps, I noted that I added cool tap water and realized NEVER to do that again.
I am now starting to cook without water on butts, but always add hot water so that you are not using up the heat to warm water. Water is great when you are learning as it evens out the temperature range.
Checking thermometer accuracy:
Performing an Ice Bath Test
An ice bath test is the easiest way to test the accuracy of any thermometer, but only if it is created properly.
Internet videos notwithstanding, an ice bath is NOT just a glass of Ice water.*
Follow this four step process carefully to create a proper ice bath:
Step 1: Fill a large glass to the very top with ice (crushed ice is preferred but not required).
Step 2: Slowly add very cold water until the water reaches about one half inch (1 centimeter) below the top of the ice.
Note: If the ice floats up off the very bottom of the glass at all, the ice bath may be warmer than 32°F (0°C). Pour off any excess water.
Step 3: Gently stir the ice mixture and let it sit for a minute or two.
Step 4: Insert the probe of the thermometer being tested about 2 inches (5 centimeters) into the ice mixture and gently stir while you take your reading.
*In our experience, an improperly made ice bath can be off the ice point as much as 15°F (8°C).
Note: Be sure to keep stirring gently. If the tip of your thermometer probe comes to rest against a chunk of ice, it will show a temperature below the ice point and if it comes to rest against the sides or bottom of the glass, it may read higher. Your thermometer will continue to drop till it reads close to 32°F.
Performing a Boiling Water Test
Boiling water tests are even trickier to perform correctly than ice baths. Water boils at 212°F (100°C) at sea level but only at sea level. The change in atmospheric pressure at elevations above or below sea level alters the temperature at which water boils. We provide a Boiling Point Calculator that will walk you through the steps to know what the current temperature of boiling water is at your location. You can find the online calculator at www.thermoworks.com/boilingpointcalculator. Once you have the target temperature written down, you are ready to begin your boiling water test:
Place 4 inches of water on the stove top, once a rolling boil begins insert the probe 2 inches down. The read out will rise until it reaches close to the temperature given to you by the calculator.
If your thermometer is reading correctly in either or both of these tests it will also be accurate over its entire range of temperatures in any food or liquid.
JSMcdowell
TVWBB All-Star
Also, Thanks Glenn for that great video. Would have loved to have seen that a few years back when I was starting.
Chris should have that on the site!
Chris should have that on the site!
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Been there done that. I want to try something I haven't seen on this site. Hopefully I get to it this weekend.
Glen- Great video and very helpful.
Jeff- yes you can dry out meat at low temps over long periods of time. Think Beef Jerky
great post! I do find it ironic that you're probing for doneness with ...a meat thermometer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That thermo actually does not even work and I don't own a ice pick
