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New at this... I need advice


 

J Solenberg

TVWBB Member
First post. Hi everyone! I'm looking forward to spending a lot of time here.

Anyhow... I got my 22" WSM earlier this week from Amazon. Today was my first time using it. I made two beer can chickens and 7 racks of baby back ribs. The chicken was outstanding - excellent flavor, juicy and tender, but the ribs were tough and I don't understand why. Here are some of the details of how I set it up. I seasoned the ribs with a dry rub last night and started cooking at 11:00 AM today. I used the Minion method to heat everything. Outside temp was in the mid 50's, the water pan was about 80% full of lukewarm water. The ribs were on rib racks on the middle rack and the two chickens were on beer can stands on the top rack. The temperature in the cooker stayed at a rock solid 220 degrees during almost the entire 5 hours the food cooked. The cooker remained closed for the first 3 hours of cooking. After that I opened it very briefly every 45 minutes or so to spray on a "mop" solution. The flavor of the ribs was excellent but they were so tough only about half got eaten.

What did I do wrong?

BTW - I am extremely new at this. I owned a brinkman smoker a few years ago that I paid about $150 for. I got so frustrated trying to control the temperature on that thing I gave up after the second attempt and sold it for $20. On the other end of the spectrum, it was SO EASY to control the temperature of this 22" WSM, it almost felt like I was cheating. No wonder everyone likes these things.
 
The ribs probably weren't done.

Did you cook at 220 lid or grate?

In any event, I would try to cook a bit higher in temps above 220. i usually cook baby backs at 250-260 lid, and the process takes about 4 hours max.

Many (including me) foil ribs for a spell to accelerate the the process of "tender".

I typically foil baby backs for 30-45 minutes until tooth pick tender. Some do it longer.
 
Yup. Undercooked. (I do them even higher than craig, about 325-350.)

You might have an idea of time from the get-go but don't cook that way, i.e., don't cook by time, pulling the ribs (or butt or brisket) after so many hours have past. Check the ribs for 'done' prior to the time you have in mind that they might be done then every so often thereafter.

Whne ribs are done ap robe inserted between the bones will go in as it would softened butter. The ribs will be juice and tender at that point. They can stay on longer, if desired, for 'more done' but care must be taken that they don't then overcook to the point of drying out.

At low temps there is a rather wide 'done window'; at higher temps it is much narrower (I might have maybe 5 minutes at the temps at which I cook if I don't foil). Those that prefer fall-off-the-bone ribs (I am not one) will often foil for some time during the cook to get them there more safely, rather than simply letting them cook longer unfoiled. Your choice.

I foil maybe half the time I cook ribs but I foil to add a flavor layer, not to achieve FOTB ribs. Because of this, like craig, I foil for a short time, and I do so at the end of the cook. The ribs finish in the foil (i.e., they hit tender), then I remove them and give them about 5-7 min on the grate to firm the bark (at high temps this is all they need) and, if using, will paint them with a very thin veneer of glaze, for a bit of flavor and shine, at this point.

Many different approaches will achieve good ribs, and there are many combinations of techniques right here on this board that will do just that. Time depends on temps. Regardless, check for tender before removing the ribs from the cooker. The clock doesn't determine tender.

Welcome to the board!
 
Excellent! Thank you both for the advice. I'm sure you're right, they had to be undercooked. The meat didn't recede from the ends of the bones at all. I was going by only the temp on the lid. I don't know how to measure at the grate... especially the middle grate.

But you're saying you cook ribs as high as 350? Wow, that seems to go against everything I thought I'd read. My understanding was that temps above 250 are what cause ribs to be tough, i.e. the "low & slow" mantra. I had heard of foiling but that almost seems to defeat the purpose of buying a good smoker - and I didn't know at what point in the cooking process you are supposed to do it. I am also not a fan of (literally) "fall off the bone" ribs, but as I heard one person put it, when you take a bite, that bite should come off clean but leave the rest of the meat on the bone.

I'd love to be able to produce (near) FOTB ribs without having to go to the pain of foiling them.

Anyway, thanks again,
Jeff
 
Welcome from the southern end of the state. There are several ways to measure at the grate. I use a wooden clothespin and simply push the probe through the spring and then clip it on the grate. Or you can cut a potato in half and push the probe through it and set the potato on the grate. I thread the probe wires out through one of the top vent holes.

It's been my experience that it doesn't take a long time in the smoke to flavor up ribs. The 3-2-1 method, 3 hours in smoke,2 in foil then 1 back in smoke, is a good starting point for spareribs.Try it once then tailor it to fit your particular taste.
 
Depending on the thickness of the ribs, I do babyback ribs at 250 for 5-6.5 hours. I like to test them for doneness with the "tear test". If you can take two ribs and tear them apart pretty easily, they are done. I never foil mine.

I also cook mine rolled up standing on end, not sure if that makes a difference.
 
Thanks all! I am making notes. I will definitely try the tips about putting the probe on the grate. I'll bet that was a large part of my problem - the lid was 220 and the grate down where the meat was was probably no higher than 200, if that.
 
Originally posted by J Solenberg:
But you're saying you cook ribs as high as 350? Wow, that seems to go against everything I thought I'd read. My understanding was that temps above 250 are what cause ribs to be tough

Nope. Higher temps just cause the ribs to be done faster. You test for done sooner than usual and get them off when they pass the tender test or you'll miss it. Hence, the shorter window mentioned by Kevin. Having said that, I do my ribs at about 250-260 lid temp. I'm not that good and need that larger window to get mine to the tender point I like. Kevin probably could cook a bowling ball to tender. I don't foil and they still come out nice and juicy so foiling is not a requirement, but just a tool that others use and get good results using
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But you're saying you cook ribs as high as 350? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Wow, that seems to go against everything I thought I'd read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sure it does. Many writers simply repeat what they've read. They don't check it out themselves (in Q circles this has been going on time immemorial!). Ribs, especially babybacks because they are not very fatty), do not require low/slow. That most do it that way is perfectly fine -- but not a requirement. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My understanding was that temps above 250 are what cause ribs to be tough, i.e. the "low & slow" mantra. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, a mantra it is. But it has no basis in fact, no basis in food science. Ribs are not thick masses of meat.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I had heard of foiling but that almost seems to defeat the purpose of buying a good smoker - </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not at all. Foil is simply a tool, one that can be used -- or not -- to suit the conditions of the cook at hand, or the preferences of the cook doing the cooking. It is a good thing to learn how to employ it because it can be used very effectively, either as a preference, or on occasion -- to 'save' a cook that seems to be going awry or, as I and some others do in the case of ribs, to help add a flavor layer. Since you are essentially just starting out I wouuld caution you not to jump on the 'I never foil' bandwagon. I do not advocate the use of foil for ribs, I advocate learning how to use it and, then, deciding what your preference is. If you understand how the cooking dynamics change when meat is foiled you can at the very least have the knowledge of foil as a tool, and can use it (if it is not your preference to use it normally) to fix cooks where other factors have seemingly conspired to ruin the meat. Too many times one reads about cooks where problems have arisen and the meat turned out less than satisfactory, where the use of a little sheet of foil could have fixed it.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and I didn't know at what point in the cooking process you are supposed to do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>For ribs, many foil in the middle of the cook, smoking for a time unfoiled, then foiling, then unfoiling for a time to finish. This can work just fine but it is not my preference. If I foil I foil nearer the end of the cook, so the ribs become tender in the foil. When I used to cook spares at lower temps (I still cook spares and backs (and other cuts) of the far fattier pork that I raise myself, or that from neighbors, at low/slow temps), I would cook the ribs till they were deeply colored (about the 4.5-hour mark or so) then I would foil to finish. You can do it either way -- or not at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> but as I heard one person put it, when you take a bite, that bite should come off clean but leave the rest of the meat on the bone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's how I like them. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'd love to be able to produce (near) FOTB ribs without having to go to the pain of foiling them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not a pain at all and, again, is not required at all either, especially at low/slow temps. (Low/slow is just fine but that does not mean that lower/slower is better. Temps can be too low for ribs -- for most anything really.)

You can get '(near) FOTB' ribs without foil, no problem. I would suggest cooking a bit higher (~250-260 lid) -- no need to prolong the cook unduly -- and simply testing for tender before the time you think the ribs will likely be done. (That way you will feel how they progress. No need to take your time, do it quickly, and no need to stab all over the place.) If you do more than one rack take one off when the ribs first hit tender, perhaps the next rack, say, 5-7 min after it hits tender; the next, say, 7-10 min after it hits tender. Rest each rack 5 min, tented with foil, then taste and note the tenderness. With a bit of experimenting you will be able to know just how long past the initial point of tenderness you prefer to pull the ribs off the cooker, and you will then be able, with a little practice, to do this by feel alone.

Then, or at some point during your experimentaton process, try the cook using foil as part of the process. Length of time in the foil affects outcome so try different foil-time lengths, and try foiling in the middile of the cook and also at the end. See what you think.

Both craig and I (and several others here) prefer to cook briskets at high heat. Because brisket is more massive and because of the higher temps foil is pretty much required (it evens out the cooking, reduces evaporation, and prevents the exterior of the meat from overcooking while the interior lags). Though foil isn't required for low/slow brisket cooks it, again, can be a handy tool when faced with a piece of meat (an overly trimmed or too-thin flat; a lower grade flat) or a circumstance (too low temps for too long; a cook that needs to be rushed a bit; an undersurface that is drying from more direct exposure to dry heat, as can be the case with sand or ceramic with a brisket on the lower grate). Depending on the meat in question, or the circumstances, foil is often employed when the meat hits the point it will likely plateau (~160), or during the plateau, or when it breaks plateau.

Though I don't much care for foiling butts, foil can speed the finish of a butt cook that for whatever reason needs to be sped up.

Foil is often used for thick cuts of beef with stringier grain (cuts from the chuck, e.g., or chuck rolls or clods) as these cuts can lose a good deal of moisture during cooking before they are done, and/or because the largest cuts will simply take too long without it.
 
This has been a goldmine of information for me. Thank you Kevin and everyone who helped. I'm learning very quickly that in spite of lots of online research, reading tons of books, and watching barbecue cooking shows on TV, there's no substitute for actually doing it, making mistakes and learning from those mistakes. I can't wait until next time.

FWIW - I have been experimenting with rubs & sauces for years and those were excellent! I've just got to get my cooking technique up to speed now.
-Jeff
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Solenberg:
This has been a goldmine of information for me. Thank you Kevin and everyone who helped. I'm learning very quickly that in spite of lots of online research, reading tons of books, and watching barbecue cooking shows on TV, there's no substitute for actually doing it, making mistakes and learning from those mistakes. I can't wait until next time.

FWIW - I have been experimenting with rubs & sauces for years and those were excellent! I've just got to get my cooking technique up to speed now.
-Jeff </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as far as i'm concerned, my worst smokes(including my first few) were still better than anything i have had at local barbecue joints. and learning it half the fun of this hobby(obsession as my wife calls it).
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Solenberg:
Thanks all! I am making notes. I will definitely try the tips about putting the probe on the grate. I'll bet that was a large part of my problem - the lid was 220 and the grate down where the meat was was probably no higher than 200, if that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I wouldn't worry about temping at the grate. You can if you wish, of course, but it isn't at all necessary. You can simply work with the therm in the lid that you already have. See that you get your temps up to 250-260 at the lid, and don't worry about the grate temp. (Temping at the grate poses its own problems.)

Learning is half the fun.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Learning is half the fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In regards to the higher heat cooking of ribs, I learned that it really does make a difference. I was doing the BRITU recipe, however, I did not ever increase the temp toward the end like the recipe called for. I would just get the temp to about 225-250 and cook until done. Then one time I reread the recipe and noticed the increase in temp toward the last 1/3 of the cook. So the next time out, I did increase the temp and it really made a difference. IMO, ribs do benefit from some time at a higher heat. Given that I don't really want to spend 6 hours cooking ribs, I might try a 300+ cook next time and see how it goes.
 
Ok, well I can't take it anymore. I just ran out and bought three more racks of ribs. I'm going to do this again today. Is this what "obsession" feels like?
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Hey J,

I'm not too far from you, up near Muncie.

It hasn't been mentioned, but you did remove the membrane from the back of the ribs, correct?

The first time I did ribs, I undercooked them, and they were tough. Next time, I learned about foiling, and left them in the foil too long, and they were mushy. Next time, I reduced the amount of time in foil, and where better. Finally got the timing down, and my wife and I are enjoying the type of ribs we love. It's all practice, to get it to your personal preference.

How did your cook go yesterday?
 
J,

If you're looking for a way to get the grate temp without wires, get yourself some eyelets from BBQ Guru. They install right at grate level and allow you to use a probe. It is also a good place to run any wires through without having to run them under the lid.
 
i am a not use foil person for the most part but i have been bbqing for quite a long time bout 20 years give or take. 225-250 is a good range for any meat the only thing that ya really need to know is what a particular meat feels like when it is "done".

my tests for the big three are:
ribs: pull a bone out of an end and it comes out clean with no effort the rest are done. this leaves the ribs between the end ribs at the point where the meat comes off clean with a slight pull.

chicken: if i can wiggle the leg and it is loose in the joint. this is very subjective and takes some practice.

brisket: little to no resistance to a meat probe all the way through the center.

as always tho BBQ is done when it is done toss the time charts they are mere guildlines not rules. sometimes things are done longer or sooner. i start checking the meat when time says it "should" be ready. leave the lid on and the food unmolested long as possible. each time you lift the lid you add 15-20 minutes of cook time.

one last thing temperature doesnt mean tender. temperature on BBQ using low and slow means it is technically done and is safe to eat. it has nothing to do with tender and tasty.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chip H (Hersh):
Hey J,

I'm not too far from you, up near Muncie.

It hasn't been mentioned, but you did remove the membrane from the back of the ribs, correct?

The first time I did ribs, I undercooked them, and they were tough. Next time, I learned about foiling, and left them in the foil too long, and they were mushy. Next time, I reduced the amount of time in foil, and where better. Finally got the timing down, and my wife and I are enjoying the type of ribs we love. It's all practice, to get it to your personal preference.

How did your cook go yesterday? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Chip! Nice to know there is somebody close. Yes, I did remove the membrane. The ones I did Sunday were much better but I think I actually went to the other end of the "done" scale this time. I cooked them between 250 and 300 and I think I waited too long to consider them done. They were more tender but somewhat dry. They still weren't good enough to brag about... of course my standards are high.
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I'm reasonably certain I can get good results foiling but I'm a little driven to try and master getting them right without foiling. Up to now I've been way too hesitant to open the lid and check them. I should probably not worry about that as much because the WSM regains it's temperature very quickly.
 

 

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