More brisket problems/questions


 
PeterD

PeterD

TVWBB Super Fan
So, my latest attempt at a packer is going less-than stellar, and in the usual-to-me way. I think I'm having some major temp issues but I just don't know.

I put the 10.5 pound packer (after-trimming) on at 2am today, set the stoker for 275 originally (dropped to 240 after an hour) then went to bed. When I woke up everything looked good, I was in the middle of the plateau and the pit was holding rock-steady at 240 (although it fluctuated/undulated badly for 3 hours earlier, which I don't understand). In any event it looked like all was well.

I'm now about 9 hours into the cook and the pit probe shows 172. I used my Thermapen and probed the meat in about 10 spots and it ranged from 175 to 205. BUT, it is FAR from probe-tender. I've never once achieved brisket that's probe-tender yet the temps always seem to be in the right area. With $40 worth of meat and 6 appetites hanging in the balance, I don't know what's wrong or if nothing's wrong.

Conventional wisdom says "done" is generally in the 190-195 range, but what do I do if the whole beast shows in (or over) that range and it still takes considerable effort to insert the probe? This has happened with every brisket I've cooked - temps are in the ballpark but the meat's still not "fall-apart tender." The thermometers ARE verified accurate within about 5 degrees of where they sould be, especially the Thermapen). I'm starting to get more than a little nervous now. What's also at issue is the general "90 minutes per pound" rule. Like I said, this was around 10.5 pounds and not even 10 hours in the temps are in the 180s (even in the middle of the point, which is very odd).

Any thoughts on what could be going on here? Should I be dropping my pit temp significantly??
 
An update: I checked about a half-hour later and it looks like the flat is badly overcooked (and the POINT is probe-tender in the 180s). I really don't know what to make of this!
 
What temp are you cooking at for the first few hours? If you set for 275 and it dropped to 240 I assume 250-275 range? If so, that may be too hot for the first 2-4 hours.

I'm doing one now and not sure if I want to wrap after 3-4 hours and let it finish a little hotter, like in that 250-275 range.

Of course, I don't know what mine is like yet as I'm leaving it alone for now, so I may end up the wrong person to listen too.
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Also curious, how much trimming are you doing, or, how much of the fat are you leaving? And what grade is the brisket?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jim Kennedy:
What temp are you cooking at for the first few hours? If you set for 275 and it dropped to 240 I assume 250-275 range? If so, that may be too hot for the first 2-4 hours. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I went 275 for about an hour or so, then dropped it to 240 before I went to bed. I was afraid of it not being ready in time for dinner, based on the 90-min/pound guideline

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also curious, how much trimming are you doing, or, how much of the fat are you leaving? And what grade is the brisket? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's a USDA Choice brisket with the fat-cap trimmed to about 1/4" give or take a little, cooked fat-cap down, top-grate with water in the pan. I cut a little bit of the fat vain between the flat and point but there wasn't a lot there to begin with. In all, I cut out roughly a pound of fat from the cryo packer.
 
Here's my StokerLog for this cook.
7-30Brisket1.jpg


I'm well through the plateau now, with the temp being checked about just before the "hump" of the point begins, in the thickest part of the flat.
 
Peter:

How did it turn out today? Sorry I didn't see this earlier. My experience with brisket is to ignore temp of the meat once you get past the plateau (180) and simply cook until probe tender. Worrying about temps at the point is counterproductive.

Hope it went well and everyone left full and happy.

Bill
 
I may be missing something, but I didn't see anything approaching a real problem in the storyline.

Most WSM cooks seem to set the heat too high IMHO. 210-225 (at the grill....which is NOT the same as lid temp....20+ degrees hotter in mine) is my favored range.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty House:
I may be missing something, but I didn't see anything approaching a real problem in the storyline. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Monte, the issue was that internal meat temps in the thickest part of the flat were approaching what is commonly considered "done" (i.e. over 180, past the 165-170 plateau) and the meat was still very tough. It wasn't even close to probe tender.

As to the final result, I left it on for about 13.5 hours in total. The point and about 2/3s of the flat came out good. The point was fork-tender, the flat closest to the point was moist and good. The end third of the flat was dry and overcooked shoeleather. When the thick of the flat was 190 the remaining 3 or 4" of the flat was 215-220 degrees, was grey and ultimately quite tough.

Overall the brisket was quite good, the bark was great but I would still like to think I could have done something different to get a perfectly-cooked piece of meat.

The log above was for 10:35 minutes into the cook (10:56 since I'd started the Stoker). The pit was steady and the meat was holding at just about 180. in that chart. When I temp-checked, the Thermapen did not go in easily into any part of the meat except the sides of the point. The flat was tough as nails.

Two hours later, when I pulled the clod off the WSM, PART of the flat was probe tender but much of it wasn't.

The questions now become: 1) What could I have done differently to get an overall-moist brisket (without foil, preferably) and 2) Why did I get a three hour long oscillation in temps that settled down rock-solid all of a sudden.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The point was fork-tender, the flat closest to the point was moist and good. The end third of the flat was dry and overcooked shoeleather. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is common for low/slow briskets and is the main reason I prefer high heat for briskets, with a foiling component. Cooking is much more efficient and even. Uneven packers - in thickness, as most are - come out moist end-to-end.

I much prefer high heat but if you want to low/slow for whatever reason foiling can help even the cooking as well.

I don't really understand the aversion to foil. The results are better overall. Unless the flat portion of the brisket is of relative even thickness, one can expect results such as yours. If you really don't want to use foil you need to start with a brisket that doesn't taper much; barring that, a brisket of significantly higher quality, i.e., one with better internal marbling.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:

I don't really understand the aversion to foil. The results are better overall. Unless the flat portion of the brisket is of relative even thickness, one can expect results such as yours. If you really don't want to use foil you need to start with a brisket that doesn't taper much; barring that, a brisket of significantly higher quality, i.e., one with better internal marbling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My dislike for foil is the mushy bark that inevitably results. The family and I adore a thick crunchy bark as well as moist meat. I seem to be able to produce one or the other. Perhaps next time I'll do low/slow but try foiling for a short period towards the end of the cook.

Getting a thick/short brisket is a tall order out here. Full-packers are almost unheard of in Northern NJ and those few shops that sell them usually only have 2 or 3 in stock, at most. There is no such thing here as "opening up the case and choosing the one you want." Maybe if I lived in the real United States (instead of New Jersey) I'd have better luck in that department. Here the standard protocol is for a "nose-on brisket" you place your order and they send one the next day. Choice is about $5/lb, Select is $4/lb. CAB and Prime are not available except by special order for north of $10/lb--if they'll even order it. You have no say in the cut of meat you want up here.
 
Foiling at the end won't do much for you. Foil at the beginning of the plateau. Removing the foil for the end will re-firm the bark. The operative issue is to foil just before rendering occurs most readily.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Foiling at the end won't do much for you. Foil at the beginning of the plateau. Removing the foil for the end will re-firm the bark. The operative issue is to foil just before rendering occurs most readily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Kruger, I've only done low & slow briskets and I want to do a HH. I've seen may posts about it. You obviously have a lot of experience. I'm sure you have a posting that I have not been able to locate. Can you provide your expertise?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Foiling at the end won't do much for you. Foil at the beginning of the plateau. Removing the foil for the end will re-firm the bark. The operative issue is to foil just before rendering occurs most readily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, so one further question: Given this graph below (the final for the entire cook) what would you define as the actual plateau? The start of the 180-range around 12:00 or somewhere in the climb through the 150-160 range?

7-30Brisket-final.jpg
?

(Geez, that'll be my EKG if I keep eating barbecue!)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hi Kruger, I've only done low & slow briskets and I want to do a HH. I've seen may posts about it. You obviously have a lot of experience. I'm sure you have a posting that I have not been able to locate. Can you provide your expertise? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
See here and here.
 
Peter, obviously, you're not gonna cook HH with water in the pan. However, if foiling briskets for any part of the cook, the beginning of the plateau especially, I'd suggest cooking with a foiled pan instead of using water for better bark.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave Russell:
Peter, obviously, you're not gonna cook HH with water in the pan. However, if foiling briskets for any part of the cook, the beginning of the plateau especially, I'd suggest cooking with a foiled pan instead of using water for better bark. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was considering using a dry/foiled pan. Given I'm using the Stoker and not just the vents to regulate the temp, I'd thought that a water pan was more of a belt-and-suspenders approach.

I'm going to ask a very silly question here. Referring to the temp graphs, how do you call that 160-165 area a true plateau when the temps are constantly and somewhat regularly rising? It isn't until the food temp line hits 180 (the bottom of the green shaded area), at about 12:30, that it hits a relative stall point. It stays in the 180 to 185 range for roughly 2 hours, which is a flatter rise than it did through the 160 range. Just curious.
 
Peter, no idea, and I'll defer to the experts on the plateau or plateaus. I don't pay attention to 'em much and usually just cook briskets til tender and hold foiled in a cooler for a few hours til supper.

I generally don't foil (choice Excel packers from Sam's club, 12-14lbs or so) and just cook overnight with water in the pan for usually pretty good results. However, if I was paying a lot for briskets that I didn't have a lot of confidence in, in terms of taper and marbling as Kevin discussed, I'd foil, and sooner rather than later, as Kevin suggested. For foiling to be predictably effective in terms of speeding up the cook, evening out cooking, and insuring a juicy brisket.... foil in the early 160's, not the 170's, even if the bark doesn't look fully developed. Good bark is icing on the cake, but you can also improve it some at the end as Kevin suggested.
 
PeterD:

I've had simialr experiences as you. My temps are generally where they ought to be but the flat never, ever feels fork tender. By the time I pull it, it is dry and tough. I've done 4 different packers and never had a decent flat.

I generally do low and slow too but I did a HH once. It was a pain in the neck trying to keep my WSM over 300 degrees. I can achieve 225 for over 15 hours but keeping 300 for 4-5 hours seems impossible without constant attention.

I live in norther Fairfield CT and have a local butcher who will get whatever I want. He's not cheap but his product is great. I'm just afraid to spend $60 on a CAB brisket, spend 15-20 hours cooking it, and have it taste like shoe leather.

Wish I had some advice for you. Just wanted you to know you are not alone.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was a pain in the neck trying to keep my WSM over 300 degrees. I can achieve 225 for over 15 hours but keeping 300 for 4-5 hours seems impossible without constant attention. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It should be easy. No water. Empty, foiled pan. I crack the door on my 18 (door flipped so knob on bottom; door propped open 1/4-1/2 inch) once the temps hit the upper 200s.
 
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