Moist flat in a packer cook


 
PeterD

PeterD

TVWBB Super Fan
Hi all,
About to do another packer Friday night on my 18" WSM. This one's about 15 pounds before trimming, with a long, skinny flat and not a lot of marbling. They didn't have any thick-flat packers when I went shopping, unfortunately. My nemesis in brisket has always been dry flats, especially the first 3 or 4 inches in from the end.

Where the flat and point start to overlap, and continuing all the way to the end of the point, well it just turns out spectacular, all jiggly-barky goodness--but that flat is always disappointing.

I've done hot and fast, low and slow, wrapped in foil, wrapped in paper, unwrapped, injected and not injected, grate temps of 225, 250, 275 and 325°. Flavour is consistent, and like I said, the point end is to die for, but shoe-leather flat meat is seriously depressing. I've just finished watching all the Franklin videos and his flats are always spectacular, as are the flats at Hill Country in NYC, my usual haunt. Is it just because they're all using prime or waygu cuts?

I usually cook to about 200-205 in the thickest part of the flat, but by then, the thinner part of the flat is in rough shape. Even if I foil/paper. Very, very dry, never moist, and although it occasionally passes the tug test it's almost always tight, which is suggesting under-done. Yet if I leave it in any longer, it will crumble (overdone).

For tonight's cook I'm planning very low and slow; 225 ish with Comp-K and post oak, then butcher paper when I wake up. It will still be in the stall, I suspect, which is about usual for my overnighter cooks. Leave wrapped until most of the cut is probe-tender....but what can I do about that darned flat?

I think part of the problem, too, is that I'm using an 18" WSM and a long brisket. Even though I'll have it propped up and draped over three bricks, the end of the meat is still close to the unprotected heat coming up from the side.

So whaddy'all think? Is there one obvious trick I should do to keep it all moist, and not just the point end?
 
I don't cook to a temp. The brisket is done when a probe goes in and out of the thickest part of the flat like a knife through butter. I completely ignore the point as it will be done when the flat is done.

Short version: The moisture in the flat doesn't come from marbling. it comes from the breakdown and rendering of the connective tissues between the muscle fibers. This breakdown starts to occur at 140ish and is a function of temperature over time, or time at temp. Depending on other variables, the connective tissue might be broken down and rendered at 180, 185 .... 205, 210, etc. When it passes the probe test, it's done regardless of the temp. If it doesn't pass the probe test, then it isn't done yet, regardless of the temp.

Once it does pass, pull it from your WSM, let it sit on the counter and vent for a bit to allow the temp to start dropping then wrap (rewrap) and let it rest for an hour or more.


BTW, if some parts are getting direct heat instead of indirect, try and shield with some foil.
 
I have the same exact problem as you. My family and guests always rave about the flavor, but I'm never happy. I wish I had some advice for you, but instead I can just commiserate with you.

We're from the same area - I'm just curious, where do you get your briskets? I did one over the holiday that I got from Restaurant Depot, was hoping that it would finally solve my issues, but alas - not so.

Also, be sure to try Mighty Quinns on Rt. 3 in Clifton - their brisket is way better than Hill Country.
 
Get better meat, cook longer until it's all the way done. Briskets can take tons of abuse. It's quite difficult to dry it out by overcooking.
 
I get my briskets at RD in Pine Brook. I always go for the CAB when possible. The one I did the other day was shoe leather. 14-1/2 hours, nothing had rendered properly even though the internal temps were 195 to 205. I used butcher paper instead of foil, and went with 240. No problems with temp, no water in the pan, but it just didn't render. Only bits of the point were gelatinous. By far the worst cook I've ever done and I'm almost ready to give up. I have tried quite literally every suggestion on this board and have wasted thousands of dollars on briskets that are only half-edible at best (the point half). I have never, ever, not even once had a flat come out moist and juicy.

I'm beginning to think the WSM, or specifically my WSM is incapable of cooking a brisket that glistens is moist and juicy. Hot/fast, low/slow, foiled, papered, naked, fat up, fat down....just nothing is working. Always packers between 12 and 16 pounds, never overly trimmed but big globs of hard white fat in the deckle removed. Always Comp-K, and either 240° or 325° for briskets. Never anything else except the one time I went 275° to shorten the cook--and it was still meh.

Like I said, the point is almost always perfect -- this time was an anomaly and it may just have been an ornery piece of meat that needed 16 or 18 hours to cook that I didn't have. But flats on my 2008 WSM just won't ever cook properly. I tried probing at 180, ever 20 minutes. It never went it "like buttah" (it never does) and when it hit about 205, and the main part of the flat and the point were in the 195-ish area, I pulled it off, let it cool for about 10 minutes in the open, double wrapped in foil and put it in a hot well-insulated cooler for 3-1/2 hours. It was in the 170s when I pulled it out but not an ounce of moisture in the foil or in the meat apparently. Desert-dry.

I've tried MQ's in Clifton; I don't particularly like how they do brisket. The slices never pass the pull test; they always crumble away. Overcooked, or held too long in plastic wrap more likely. Hill Country is also hit and miss nowadays, but usually perfect just at the start of evening service when fresh packers are starting to be carved.
 
PeterD said:
But flats on my 2008 WSM just won't ever cook properly. I tried probing at 180, ever 20 minutes. It never went it "like buttah" (it never does) and when it hit about 205, and the main part of the flat and the point were in the 195-ish area, I pulled it off, let it cool for about 10 minutes in the open, double wrapped in foil and put it in a hot well-insulated cooler for 3-1/2 hours. It was in the 170s when I pulled it out but not an ounce of moisture in the foil or in the meat apparently. Desert-dry.
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This sounds undercooked to me. Have you tested the accuracy of your temp probe?
 
Yes, double-checked all my probes a few weeks ago. I was using a Stoker for the long overnight and temperatures held perfectly steady around 240°. I had the flat-end's last 3 inches protected by aluminum foil on the grate. I expect the very end caps to overcook since the hot smoke shoots right up there, but an inch in should be edible.

I agree, it was significantly undercooked, despite reading well within the usual range of "done" with my Thermapen. I want to go by "tender" rather than temp (and certainly not time), but what can I do if I can never, ever achieve tender? Pull-testing a slice of my lean brisket will result in either crumbly overcooked or tough undercooked more often than not, and even once in a while a gentle tug-apart--that should mean 'Just Right'--but never, ever is it moist and juicy.

I'm using Certified Angus Beef, Choice grade, and shouldn't have to go with Prime or Waygu to get something good. Other Q joints here serve Choice, not Prime, and theirs in invariably moist. This brisket that was horrible was probably just a bad cow. I had very little choice in briskets this time; they all had very long, thin flats. I usually go for the thickest flats I can get, which I don't find very often.

I had been getting decent results by taking it off the grate, putting it in an aluminum pan once its well into the stall, adding beef broth and covering for a couple of hours. The points turn out spectacularly well. This time I'd watched the Franklin videos and figured butcher paper would leave me with better bark, but instead it just turned it into a disaster. Now, that said, Every Single Scrap of that brisket was inhaled by the party guests and, with sufficient BBQ Sauce, it was well received. But this was in NJ. If this had been in Texas, I'd have been thrown out of the state.
 
Peter,

I've been having killer luck with my past several briskets using my weber expandable hanging rack and hanging the brisket direct over the coals with no water pan. I wonder if you put your brisket direct on the grate, point side down, no water pan, and cooked it exposed at about 300-330 dome temps (remember no water pan) until it probes tender (should take about 7 hours), if you could achieve the same effect?

This is like cooking on a PBC pit barrel cooker or UDS ugly drum smoker.

Another thought is that all the times you open your cooker to foil, probe, or otherwise fuss with your brisket and see if it's cooking will add significant time to your cook.

Next time instead of probing tender every 20 minutes at 180IT, try probing tender every 45 minutes starting at 195IT.
 
PeterD said:
Y
I'm using Certified Angus Beef, Choice grade, and shouldn't have to go with Prime or Waygu to get something good. Other Q joints here serve Choice, not Prime, and theirs in invariably moist. This brisket that was horrible was probably just a bad cow. I had very little choice in briskets this time; they all had very long, thin flats. I usually go for the thickest flats I can get, which I don't find very often.
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I agree CAB briskets from restaurant depot do just fine.
 
PeterD said:
Yes, double-checked all my probes a few weeks ago. I was using a Stoker for the long overnight and temperatures held perfectly steady around 240°. I had the flat-end's last 3 inches protected by aluminum foil on the grate. I expect the very end caps to overcook since the hot smoke shoots right up there, but an inch in should be edible.

I agree, it was significantly undercooked, despite reading well within the usual range of "done" with my Thermapen. I want to go by "tender" rather than temp (and certainly not time), but what can I do if I can never, ever achieve tender? Pull-testing a slice of my lean brisket will result in either crumbly overcooked or tough undercooked more often than not, and even once in a while a gentle tug-apart--that should mean 'Just Right'--but never, ever is it moist and juicy.

I'm using Certified Angus Beef, Choice grade, and shouldn't have to go with Prime or Waygu to get something good. Other Q joints here serve Choice, not Prime, and theirs in invariably moist. This brisket that was horrible was probably just a bad cow. I had very little choice in briskets this time; they all had very long, thin flats. I usually go for the thickest flats I can get, which I don't find very often.

I had been getting decent results by taking it off the grate, putting it in an aluminum pan once its well into the stall, adding beef broth and covering for a couple of hours. The points turn out spectacularly well. This time I'd watched the Franklin videos and figured butcher paper would leave me with better bark, but instead it just turned it into a disaster. Now, that said, Every Single Scrap of that brisket was inhaled by the party guests and, with sufficient BBQ Sauce, it was well received. But this was in NJ. If this had been in Texas, I'd have been thrown out of the state.
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Pete, have you ever tried to go very simple ? By that I mean just fire up the smoker, put the brisket on and cook it until it's done, which is when a probe goes in and out of the thickest part of the flat with almost no resistance ? Ignore the point AND ignore the internal temp.

Something that confuses a lot of people is that a dry brisket can indeed be undercooked, even with an internal temp of 205. I've had briskets finish at 210 degrees IT and they were moist and delicious.
 
Given your frustrations, I would play with some extremes to see if you can start isolating the problem.

Bite the bullet for one cook and splurge on a prime brisket. See if that makes a difference. If not a significant difference, then the problem is likely not the meat you're getting. My guess is that a better meat quality will help to solve at least some of the problem.

Sacrifice one cook to the BBQ deities and let a brisket cook until it gets 'like buttah' (just don't do this with the prime brisket). It's odd that you rarely get to the point where the probe easily slips into and out of the meat (even an overcooked brisket should feel like butter as there's nothing left to provide any resistance). I would probably stop this experiment if you don't reach the butter point after 18 hour or so but if that happens, then the problem is likely with you. It might be helpful to sit in on a cook with another board member to watch how they do it.

A couple of other suggestions - why not separate the point from the flat or carve your briskets into hunks of uniform thickness. This way you'll be able to pull off the thinner pieces sooner than the thicker ones. It also might help with the space issue.

Finally, what do you mean when you say that you prop your meat up on bricks? If this raises the meat above grate level, are you temping where the meat is cooking or at grate level? If the latter, are you accounting for temperature differences between the two?
 
Joseph J said:
Given your frustrations, I would play with some extremes to see if you can start isolating the problem.

Bite the bullet for one cook and splurge on a prime brisket. See if that makes a difference. If not a significant difference, then the problem is likely not the meat you're getting. My guess is that a better meat quality will help to solve at least some of the problem.
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I sincerely doubt the Choice CAB meat will be that bad. I've had Select briskets at friends' cookouts that turned out incredible on his offset. Yes, a Prime would be nice to try, but not until I get things a bit better more reliably. SRF wants well over $100 for a Prime, which is way out of my price range. I'm paying $3.49 at R.D. in New Jersey.

Joseph J said:
Sacrifice one cook to the BBQ deities and let a brisket cook until it gets 'like buttah' (just don't do this with the prime brisket). It's odd that you rarely get to the point where the probe easily slips into and out of the meat (even an overcooked brisket should feel like butter as there's nothing left to provide any resistance). I would probably stop this experiment if you don't reach the butter point after 18 hour or so but if that happens, then the problem is likely with you. It might be helpful to sit in on a cook with another board member to watch how they do it.
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I'd actually like to do that if the other cooker is an 18" WSM. I honestly think the cooker really is too small for what I'm trying to do with it. The 22 would be much more flexible, but if I get another cooker I'll go offset instead. I have done this to a degree. Naked brisket, S&P only, 240 until it feels great. And from the thickest part of the flat on left to the end of the point it's often spectacular. The right third just never moistens up. Do I really want to fork over $50 and watch it disintegrate to nothing? I think the wife would have my you know whats for bookends if I did.

Joseph J said:
A couple of other suggestions - why not separate the point from the flat or carve your briskets into hunks of uniform thickness. This way you'll be able to pull off the thinner pieces sooner than the thicker ones. It also might help with the space issue.
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That would probably work, but I'd rather not. I'm trying to do this the traditional way; whole packer.

Finally, what do you mean when you say that you prop your meat up on bricks? If this raises the meat above grate level, are you temping where the meat is cooking or at grate level? If the latter, are you accounting for temperature differences between the two?[/QUOTE]

I only do that with briskets over about 16 pounds. I have three bricks that I foil up and drape the fat side over. Once it's well into the stall I'll open it up, remove the bricks and lay it down on the grate. I've actually never had a problem doing this and it works beautifully for long, heavy briskies.

I'll re-state at this point that I don't ever go by time and my temps are guides only, but I still need some frame of reference. I've done an awful lot of briskets where the thick middle and point were fantastic but the long flat slices were crumble apart dry (i.e. overcooked). Most are off this way, in fact. This cook, I went waaaaay under and I know it. It just never felt right, then I ran out of time and had to leave for the party I was going to. I figured 3 or 4 hours wrapped up in foil, towels and a tight plastic cooler would keep it going to done, but no such luck. Like I said, this cook was an anomaly, not the norm. I'd really like to see a 15 or 16# packer done low and slow on an 18" WSM and have the flat turn out perfect. I know my cook process is good up until it breaks the stall but from that part is where it all goes to hell. I really think a sealed foil pan and beef broth yields the best results I can achieve, but I'd sure like to do it with butcher paper or naked.
 
I'm wondering if it's just the quality of meat available in our area. Most of the flats are really thin on all the packers I've seen at RD. Next time I have a few extra dollars I'd like to buy a prime packer from La Frieda just to eliminate meat quality as a variable.
 
CAB should be fine. I doubt it's the meat. It might be some sort of issue of cooking that big of a brisket on a 18 but I don't know. I only have the 22. Getting that perfect flat is the holy grail. I dunno if the answer is injecting or maybe foiling that part for a part of the cook. If my flat is a little dry I don't really care as much. I'm more about the fatty end for me.

Even perfectly cooked flat tends to try out pretty fast after being sliced so I try to slice it as I serve it. But typically my guests are family members and they are milling about not enjoying the brisket immediately while a blood vessel is pulsing on my forehead and "EAT THE FOOD! IT'S AT OPTIMAL TEMPERATURE AND MOISTURE!!" is screaming in my mind but I don't say it. At this point its best to crack open a beer and calm down.
 
I had to laugh at Dustin's 2nd paragraph - I can totally relate! SIT DOWN & EAT! LOL.
I'm no expert but, I've heard to separate the flat & point before the cook & cook each to probe tender individually (Added benefit is more surface area for bark!). And, like Dustin said, try injecting?
 
What i would do is, put the brisket in fat side down, don't trim fat from the end of the flat, and put a strip of aluminum foil under the tip of the flat. Also i wouldn't pull it at 200-205°. Last one i did i decided to pull when it was still just a little bit tuff. Pulled it off and let it rest in a cooler for 2-3hrs. I foiled it in the wsm at around 170°IT too (just a side note ). Since I started doing my briskets this way they have come out very good. there always seems to be a little bit of the flat that gets scorched, but much less now. I think the resting period is very important, and I always plan that into my cooks for brisket and pork butts.
 
Well I did precisely that in this past cook. Foil under a thick fat cap, pulled earlier than I normally would have and rested for over 3 hours. Next cook will probably be hot and fast and back to aluminum foil and not butcher paper.
 
I did a 15lb superior angus from RD this weekend. No injection, low and slow, but this time I cooked fat side up and used a water pan (not the WSM pan, mind you, just a regular aluminum pan on the lower grate). I flipped it and sprayed with apple juice a few times during the 2nd half of the 20-hour smoke.

Not as much of a smoke ring as usual, but the juiciness was definitely there. It was the first brisket I've made where I went back for seconds. The flat was actually edible and the point was a delicacy. If you picked up a slice of the flat you could squeeze it and see juices coming out. It could have used some more resting time but I was hungry.

I still maintain that the flats on the cuts being shipped to the NNJ area are thinner and are much leaner than in other places. No scientific evidence, I just like a good conspiracy theory and want to blame all these failed briskets on something :)
 
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