Mixing Dough With A KitchenAid Mixer


 
Brett you're WAY too fixated on the motor as AC or DC. Even the so called AC motor is a DC motor. What is more important is the gear box. All KA stand mixers use DC to run the motors. Every last one of them. Even most of the hand mixers do. The gear box design is FAR FAR FAR more important. The motors (that are shown as "AC" are actually WAY more powerful motors than the so called "DC" ones. For durability and actual strength it's the gear box. As for that 7qt model using the older style motor? Upping the motor wattage does nothing. As the actual ability of the machine will be limited by the gear box design. The older very limited worm drive gear box is pretty over taxed as it is with 6qt. Upping the wattage and bowl size would not bode well. It will rip itself to bits.
Also for $399 or less (many times I see them as low as $279) the 6qt at Costco would be the absolute best deal going. But from a technical aspect the motor is not the important part. Pay close attention to the photos I posted of the machines on the inside. The one I had opened up is basically the same design pioneered by Hobart (KitchenAid division) way back in the early 30s Going back to the little 3A. That design does not scale up well and is what you see in the open gear box I photographed. There just is not enough space in that little housing to make everything stout enough to stand up consistently to that huge (AC as you call it) motor. Truthfully it is not a machine I would advise anyone to buy.
Really the only advantage of the permanent magnet motor machine over the other design is by using magnets the motor can be more compact allowing for a FAR more robust constant mesh gear box rather than the noisy, sloppy and archaic worm drive unit

agreed that the gearbox is important but to get a better gearbox you need a mid to higher range unit.

again, it boils down to one's use model.

if one is not making a lot of breads or firm doughs, pretty much any of the KA units will work. if you're going to throw heavier duty use at it, Proline models or the Professional 600 series are good mixers.

the chart at the end of the link I shared is KA's breakdown of use models.

the DC motors will drive more torque and run quieter. there is a difference between AC and DC, but again, the use model is what's key.

maybe i've been down this rabbit hole for too long now. i'm just waiting for the unit i want to be back in stock and then i'll pull trigger.
 
Larry, can you please check this recommendation? The one I'm currently seeing at Costco.com (OOS at the moment) is a Series 6, which is part of the Pro 600 line (I think).
Yes it is. It's the Professional 600. The old Series 6 (or Professional 6) is no longer in production. There were a few different 6qt machines beginning with the Epicurean at 475 watt motor, then up from there one called Professional 6 at 525 watts, up from there the professional 600 (in a couple of types one called "Designer Series" with a glass bowl, and finally a Professional 610 which was a specialty model at 590 watts). These all have the same gear train as the one sold at Sam's and Best buy as the "Heavy Duty" or Professional +5. All these machines have the same weakness and it's NOT the motor. It's the gear box and the planetary hub. I have a mod my buddy does to improve the planetary hub and I have that done on every machine. It appears KA has simply upped bowl capacity to offer a lower cost 7 qt machine and if so I could not recommend it at all as the gear train design is VERY over taxed if used in full 6 qt capacity and the motor itself can severely over power it
 
That's the one I bought last week but didn't open and need to return it. Silver still shows in stock for me:

https://www.costco.com/kitchenaid-p...d-mixer-with-flex-edge.product.100485356.html

View attachment 63749
Why are you wanting to return it? They're decent machines. More than powerful enough to mix anything you can throw at it. Again the weak spot is the gear box but used with that limitation in mind they're fine. Understand I am sharing the weak points I see. Every failure I have ever seen is due solely to the gear box and the planetary. For home use. Light duty they can work pretty well. I had one in our own kitchen with no issues at all (though I had done all my mods to it). I ended up selling that machine, and the person who bought it bought another and is now waiting for a 3rd one I am currently building. Anyway I keep seeing this DC/AC motor stuff and it means absolutely nothing in the actual performance of the machine. The only difference is the "DC" (I prefer to call it permanent magnet) motor is able to produce ALMOST as much torque as the much physically larger (AC or series wound) universal motor. Since the permanent magnet motor does not have to feed current to stator windings it uses a little less current, runs quieter but more importantly does so in a smaller space leaving room for the more robust gear box.
 

since people probably won't clickthrough to read:

Customer Review​


Stefan Brunner

5.0 out of 5 stars The difference between the 600, 610, 620, 6000, 6500, 7 qt, 8 qt models
Reviewed in the United States 🇺🇸 on May 17, 2017
Verified Purchase
When I bought the recent Costco model, I was intrigued to find out what was hiding behind the Costco brand Kitchenaid model. Interestingly enough, it turns out to be a Williams-Sonoma 610 model. This got me asking what is the difference to the 600 model, and why does a 610 model even exist? After taking my Costco model apart, doing a significant amount of research, and acquiring the 7 qt model and investigating it, I came to the following conclusion:

All models, the 600, 610, 620, 6000, 6500, 7qt residential, 7 qt commercial, and 8 qt are essentially all the same models. They have the exact same form factor and with the exception of the 6000, fit the same beaters and bowls. They differ mainly in motor, transmission, bowl, and beater (that needs to match bowl size). And some models have plastic knobs whereas other have metal ones.

600: This is the base model. A few years ago Kitchenaid changed the transmission case, that holds some sprockets in place, to plastic. This was changed back to the old metal cast case from the 6 Series now. It has a 575W AC motor.

610: Is the same as the 600 with the same transmission, but a different 590W AC motor. I doubt that the extra 15W this motor is rated for makes a difference. The 600 model collected a lot of critic from people doing heavy doughs. My assumption is that Williams-Sonoma requested a more robust motor, perhaps with higher torque. The control electronic is a very simple triac motor control. It looks similar to the 600 control, but has the hall speed sensor soldered on. It also misses the IC from early 600 models. The wire whip is not the one from the 600, but the one from the 7 and 8 qt models. The Costco model has metal flat and hook beaters instead of the coated ones.

620: Is a 610 in fancy colors.

6000 HD: It has an entirely different transmission and motor than the 600, 610, or 620. My assumption is that the transmission is the same as in the 6500, 7qt and 8 qt models. The motor may or may not be the same. The 6000, like the 6500, is rated as 1 HP. It could be the same motor from the 7 qt and 8 qt and might be electronically limited or simply derated on paper. The bowl, and therefore the beaters, are totally different than on the 600 models. The bowl is taller and narrower. Because the pins that hold the bowl are narrower, you can only fit 6000 bowls, but not those from the 600, 6500, or 7 qt, 8 qt models. This is by the way also the old Costco model.

6500: Appears to be a 7 qt model, derated for 1 HP with a fancy 6 qt bowl. The cover of the planetary gear facing the bowl looks more robust.

7 qt: Its motor is rated for 1.3 HP. The 7 qt appears to fit all the bowl from the 600, I actually tried this out, even with 7 qt beaters. In reverse, the 600 fits bowl and beater of the 7 qt.

8 qt: In all likelihood a 7 qt model with a bigger bowl and a finger guard. Motor is rated the same. It should fit all 7 qt and 600 model bowls.

The 7 qt and 8 qt also exist as commercial versions with an orange power cord and a commercial use warranty. Otherwise, my assumption is that they are the same as the residential models.

Confused, yet? What should you pick?

In my opinion the biggest differentiator is the AC vs DC motor, not because the motor is AC or DC, but because of torque, transmission, and speed control design. The DC motor of the 6000, 6500, 7 qt, and 8 qt models is significantly beefier than the one of the 600 Series. The DC motor uses a digital PWM speed control that holds speed exactly and increases torque as needed. The 6000 and 6500 may or may not have the same motor as the 7 qt and 8 qt models, but are rated with 25% less power. As I said, this might be paper derated or electronically limited, or actually it has a slightly smaller motor. The DC models also are significantly quieter than the transmission and motor combo of the 600.

The 600, 610, and 620 use a very primitive triac control. The 610 and 620 have a slightly more robust motors but use the same transmission as the 600. The triac control will not increase torque as well while holding speed, which specifically will be noticeable with heavy doughs. These models are very noisy. Because of their simpler design, the 600 Series is cheaper to repair than the DC models. Sprockets are a couple of bugs and even the speed control is inexpensive.

The 6000 HD appears to be the oddball when it comes to bowls. It uses narrow bowls that need their own narrower beaters.

All other models use the same bowls. Now, it might make little sense to put an 8 qt bowl into a 600 where the motor is not strong enough. The dough hook might be the same, but you need more force. The wire whip has more wires on the 610 and up models. I do not see why it should not work on the 600. The real difference is in the flat beater. While you mostly can use the larger (flat) beaters with smaller bowls, like use a 7 qt beater with a 6 qt bowl, if you use a 6 qt beater with a 7 qt bowl, you just do not reach the top of the bowl. The 3 qt bowl should fit all models, even the 6000 model, because it has holes for the narrower pins, and comes with its own beater.

The dough hook exist in stainless, aluminum and coated aluminum. The flat beater exist as stainless, aluminum, coated aluminum, or with a silicon lip that saves you from interrupting and scraping the bowl walls. The wire whip is always stainless. Only stainless and coated aluminum can be washed in the dish washer. Some people complain about the coating flaking over time. While various packets exist that bundle coated or none coated versions, only the commercial 7 qt and 8 qt version contain stainless beaters. Beaters are quiet pricey but can purchased after market, even from third parties.

Depending on the sale you are getting, the price difference between the models might not be actually that much. I would not get a 6000 because of the weird bowl shape that locks you in. I found the price difference between the 7 qt and 600 models to be about $100 with the right deal, the 6500 actually could be more expensive. The 600 comes in all kinds of colors, of this is important to you. All other models are limited in colors. I decided for the 7 qt model because I wanted to make pizza and bread doughs and simply bought 5 qt and 3 qt bowls for the smaller jobs. I would buy an 8 qt bowl if I ever needed it.

I hope this information makes it easier for you to make your own decision.

On the picture, left the 7 qt model, and right the Costco 610 model.
 
Why are you wanting to return it? They're decent machines.
Larry I have no doubts about your recommendation but I have this flaw where I read, contemplate, weigh pros and cons, consider what I'll miss-out on by not moving up to an improved model, and then it becomes agonizing, lol. It was a rarity, but in this instance I bought the Series 6 and then came home and sat in front of my PC to read.

I'm at the point where if I were to keep the Series 6 and not go with the KSM7586 I'd always wonder "what if."

Plus, you have some blame in this for cheering me on... :p

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costco business center:


this is the Commercial model but at 25% off retail ($799.99 on Amazon).

KitchenAid NSF Commercial Series 8 Quart Bowl-Lift Stand Mixer, Dark Pewter​


Item 1596371

Model KSM8990DP

Delivered Price​

604.99$



Features:​

  • Powerful and quiet motor
  • Commercial bowl-lift design provides sturdy bowl support
  • Includes stainless steel flat beater, spiral dough hook, and elliptical whisk
  • NSF Certified for commercial use
 
Technically, a permanent magnet DC motor has more starting torque but produces less torque the faster it runs. The universal motor (AC, which is kind of a misnomer because, having a brushed commutator, also runs on DC) has less starting torque and I think that may be why it uses the gear reduction before the worm gear. To me, considering motors only, that would mean if you use the mixer with heavy loads at low speed, a PMDC motor would be preferred.

I'm only interested in the mechanicals and not in the market for another mixer.
 
Also, while the AC or DC motor aspect is not always shown in the specs, AC motors are rated in watts and DC motors are rated in HP. Again, an AC (universal) motor is a brushed motor so will also run on DC. A PMDC motor is DC only, of course.
 
Technically, a permanent magnet DC motor has more starting torque but produces less torque the faster it runs. The universal motor (AC, which is kind of a misnomer because, having a brushed commutator, also runs on DC) has less starting torque and I think that may be why it uses the gear reduction before the worm gear. To me, considering motors only, that would mean if you use the mixer with heavy loads at low speed, a PMDC motor would be preferred.

I'm only interested in the mechanicals and not in the market for another mixer.
anyone mixing dough isn't mixing on high speed, but rather 2nd speed and for a longer period of time.

the issue one will face is amount of flour to mix and the mixing duration without overheating the motor.

you can make whipped cream in any mixer without any issue(s).

if one is making dough, and more than one loaf at a time, a stronger mixer will make the job easier over time and likely without less parts failure; again all depending on frequency of mixing and raw ingredient amounts.
 
This is all giving me a headache! My mind is reeling in a ”planetary” motion and I don’t even own a banjo! (Very obscure joke)
Let’s all just bring some festive treats and camp out at Larry’s for the span between New Years day and the Feast of St. Valentine! Everyone pick a meal and swap labor for feasting!
Maybe bartering the project so the whole tax misery can be avoided! I’ll teach one of the trussing “workshops”happily!
 
This is all giving me a headache! My mind is reeling in a ”planetary” motion and I don’t even own a banjo! (Very obscure joke)
Let’s all just bring some festive treats and camp out at Larry’s for the span between New Years day and the Feast of St. Valentine! Everyone pick a meal and swap labor for feasting!
Maybe bartering the project so the whole tax misery can be avoided! I’ll teach one of the trussing “workshops”happily!
Sorry, Tim! Blame it on Larry for posting the pictures of the mixer internals.
 
I'm dropping out of this at this point as I am getting a little tired of it. I work on them, I KNOW what their high points and weak points are. I have laid it all out and been argued with yet I've been fixing and dealing with these units for close to 15 years now. I also own/owned every machine here in discussion and also used them. I can also tell you that when it comes to flat out raw power (IOW trying to stop it whether high or low speed) here is a shocker. The Professional 600 is more "unstoppable" than the even the giant 8 qt unit. Yes you read that right. Read it again so you know you didn't misread. I have run them side by side, and done my best to totally overload them (one of my torture tests I ran to make sure the mods I have done actually work by trying to literally "break" them). And much to my surprise the larger machine is more easily over powered. Does that mean the 600 series is "better"? No. Because of it's weak points that power will work against it and does. I still stand by my recommendation for the drive train in the current 7qt and 8qt machines (KA used to make a similar 6qt machine but for some reason do not anymore known as the 6000) so take it out of the mix. It's not relevant.
So bottom line they're all good, with the larger 2 (7qt and 8qt) being overall better (for quietness and longevity under heavy use). They have plenty of power to accomplish the tasks at hand. But, if budget is an issue and usage is light to medium the Pro600 will do the job at a good price. Just with a lot of noise and under real heavy use not as long.
Bottom line I am giving for free my knowledge and expertise in an area of which I have a lot of. Take it or leave it. Basically I'm done
 
I'm dropping out of this at this point as I am getting a little tired of it. I work on them, I KNOW what their high points and weak points are. I have laid it all out and been argued with yet I've been fixing and dealing with these units for close to 15 years now. I also own/owned every machine here in discussion and also used them. I can also tell you that when it comes to flat out raw power (IOW trying to stop it whether high or low speed) here is a shocker. The Professional 600 is more "unstoppable" than the even the giant 8 qt unit. Yes you read that right. Read it again so you know you didn't misread. I have run them side by side, and done my best to totally overload them (one of my torture tests I ran to make sure the mods I have done actually work by trying to literally "break" them). And much to my surprise the larger machine is more easily over powered. Does that mean the 600 series is "better"? No. Because of it's weak points that power will work against it and does. I still stand by my recommendation for the drive train in the current 7qt and 8qt machines (KA used to make a similar 6qt machine but for some reason do not anymore known as the 6000) so take it out of the mix. It's not relevant.
So bottom line they're all good, with the larger 2 (7qt and 8qt) being overall better (for quietness and longevity under heavy use). They have plenty of power to accomplish the tasks at hand. But, if budget is an issue and usage is light to medium the Pro600 will do the job at a good price. Just with a lot of noise and under real heavy use not as long.
Bottom line I am giving for free my knowledge and expertise in an area of which I have a lot of. Take it or leave it. Basically I'm done
Didn't know if a "Like" or a "Sad" was more appropriate, so I went with a "Like". Thanks for the education, but sorry to see you go.
 
This is all giving me a headache! My mind is reeling in a ”planetary” motion and I don’t even own a banjo! (Very obscure joke)
Let’s all just bring some festive treats and camp out at Larry’s for the span between New Years day and the Feast of St. Valentine! Everyone pick a meal and swap labor for feasting!
Maybe bartering the project so the whole tax misery can be avoided! I’ll teach one of the trussing “workshops”happily!
1670550882335.png
 

 

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