Mixing Dough With A KitchenAid Mixer


 
OK so as promised showing some photos of the inside of what would be a Professional 600 or it's derivatives. Followed by photos of the drive train from the 7/8qt type. The thing to pay attention to is on the 7/8qt type drive train is how small the motor is (thanks to rare earth permanent magnets) and the overall size of the gear train in comparison to the Pro600 type. First up the Pro 600 type
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You will note this uses a worm drive system. The main failure points being the intersection of the motor drive gear and the spur gear, and then to the worm "follower". I also included photos of the inside of the upper gear box and showing the size of the motor and it's speed feedback system. Typically (thanks to the awful lube KA uses) the worm follower will start to wear prematurely. This will force the rest of the bearings and gears out of alignment, eventually pieces will snap off and VERY loud awful noises will erupt. I recently worked on one where they ignored the noises, kept pushing it and the shaft with the 2 support and thrust bearings actually welded themselves together. Have actually never seen one more destroyed.
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The above set shows the exterior (sorry I did not take any photos while this one was opened) but, the cylinder with the cable tie on it is the actual motor. Very compact and very quiet. In front of it you see there are actually 2 gear boxes. The first being a reduction planetary set, the next a 90 deg similar to say your car's differential. Both gear boxes are fully sealed (so I can use the best lubes for the job with no food issues), and also both are WAY more robust than necessary so. literally the motor will go into a self shutoff mode (thanks to thermal breaker) LONG before it can damage the gear box. Unlike the other where the motor is WAY more powerful than the gear box so by the time you've gotten it hot enough to go into a thermal protection the gear system is pretty well damaged. Again these are not meant to be a "how to" in any way. Simply educational on the differences.
 
LMichaels said:
OK so as promised showing some photos of the inside of what would be a Professional 600 or it's derivatives. Followed by photos of the drive train from the 7/8qt type. The thing to pay attention to is on the 7/8qt type drive train is how small the motor is (thanks to rare earth permanent magnets) and the overall size of the gear train in comparison to the Pro600 type. First up the Pro 600 type
View attachment 63650View attachment 63651View attachment 63652View attachment 63653
You will note this uses a worm drive system. The main failure points being the intersection of the motor drive gear and the spur gear, and then to the worm "follower". I also included photos of the inside of the upper gear box and showing the size of the motor and it's speed feedback system. Typically (thanks to the awful lube KA uses) the worm follower will start to wear prematurely. This will force the rest of the bearings and gears out of alignment, eventually pieces will snap off and VERY loud awful noises will erupt. I recently worked on one where they ignored the noises, kept pushing it and the shaft with the 2 support and thrust bearings actually welded themselves together. Have actually never seen one more destroyed.
View attachment 63654View attachment 63655View attachment 63656
The above set shows the exterior (sorry I did not take any photos while this one was opened) but, the cylinder with the cable tie on it is the actual motor. Very compact and very quiet. In front of it you see there are actually 2 gear boxes. The first being a reduction planetary set, the next a 90 deg similar to say your car's differential. Both gear boxes are fully sealed (so I can use the best lubes for the job with no food issues), and also both are WAY more robust than necessary so. literally the motor will go into a self shutoff mode (thanks to thermal breaker) LONG before it can damage the gear box. Unlike the other where the motor is WAY more powerful than the gear box so by the time you've gotten it hot enough to go into a thermal protection the gear system is pretty well damaged. Again these are not meant to be a "how to" in any way. Simply educational on the differences.
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How does the Commercial model compare, parts quality wise?
 
Brett-EDH said:
How does the Commercial model compare, parts quality wise?
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Compare to what? Confusing (to me anyway) question. The Commercial unit is certainly up to the task of being "Commercial". The machine in my own kitchen came out of a commercial kitchen. When I got it, let's just say it was disgusting. Grossly filthy, and so on. But, I pulled it completely apart, went through it with a fine tooth comb and thoroughly cleaned and sterilized it. Right now if you came in my kitchen and looked at it you would swear it just came out of the box brand new. I also found no real wear and tear on or in it. The utensils on it are NSF all stainless steel and really pretty impossible to harm, thankfully the finish on mine was only filthy and gross. And it literally runs like a Rolex. Pretty much everything on my Commercial 8qt could be said for the 7qt except the utensils are not that rugged and can be damaged through misuse. If buying one know they come in 2 versions. One with a bowl guard with lockout (and it cannot be disabled) the other without the bowl "cage". I could never use the one with the bowl cage as my cabinets are too low.
 
LMichaels said:
Compare to what? Confusing (to me anyway) question. The Commercial unit is certainly up to the task of being "Commercial". The machine in my own kitchen came out of a commercial kitchen. When I got it, let's just say it was disgusting. Grossly filthy, and so on. But, I pulled it completely apart, went through it with a fine tooth comb and thoroughly cleaned and sterilized it. Right now if you came in my kitchen and looked at it you would swear it just came out of the box brand new. I also found no real wear and tear on or in it. The utensils on it are NSF all stainless steel and really pretty impossible to harm, thankfully the finish on mine was only filthy and gross. And it literally runs like a Rolex. Pretty much everything on my Commercial 8qt could be said for the 7qt except the utensils are not that rugged and can be damaged through misuse. If buying one know they come in 2 versions. One with a bowl guard with lockout (and it cannot be disabled) the other without the bowl "cage". I could never use the one with the bowl cage as my cabinets are too low.
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The Pro 600 and Commercial line (8series) of bowl lift mixers are made with different parts from my understanding. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.


my understanding is the motors and gears are different platforms of these two machines; one being commercial grade and the other being pro-sumer grade (home enthusiast, but not commercial use).

further, the AC vs DC motors are a huge difference from my research. i found this to be the best read out there to demystify the entire KA line.

 
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I guess my original post with the photos went too long. Neither has what can be called a DC motor. They both use DC motors. Well actually one uses a "universal" motor. They both use the same type of motor controls. The drive trains are vastly different. The 6xxxx machines are vastly different from the 6xx machines or from the Pro 5xx machines. The 6xxx machines are more like the 7qt and 8qt machines BUT you cannot buy the 6xxx machines anymore. I still don't get the "quality" question. One line is different than the other. I can't say one is higher "quality" than the other. You're interspersing marketing with technical and then further blurring it by calling the differences "quality". Re-read and study the information I gave in my long post with photos. I think it will explain itself. Again, it's informational only. Not there to infer service procedures or anything else. Simply how they differ mechanically.
Also that comparison is confusing at best. Two VASTLY different machines for vastly different purposes and uses. The 6500 is in no way related to the 6000 series which is no longer available (last produced in 2014 IIRC) and much more closely related to the 8qt/7qt family of machines. Also don't fall for the glass bowl hype. They're AWFUL to use and live with. Also the accessories don't work with anything else.
That machine is basically the 600 series with a glass bowl and all the issues that come with it. Prior to being sold as a 6500 it was sold as the 600 Designer Series.
Hopefully it clears things up for ya
 
LMichaels said:
I guess my original post with the photos went too long. Neither has what can be called a DC motor. They both use DC motors. Well actually one uses a "universal" motor. They both use the same type of motor controls. The drive trains are vastly different. The 6xxxx machines are vastly different from the 6xx machines or from the Pro 5xx machines. The 6xxx machines are more like the 7qt and 8qt machines BUT you cannot buy the 6xxx machines anymore. I still don't get the "quality" question. One line is different than the other. I can't say one is higher "quality" than the other. You're interspersing marketing with technical and then further blurring it by calling the differences "quality". Re-read and study the information I gave in my long post with photos. I think it will explain itself. Again, it's informational only. Not there to infer service procedures or anything else. Simply how they differ mechanically.
Also that comparison is confusing at best. Two VASTLY different machines for vastly different purposes and uses. The 6500 is in no way related to the 6000 series which is no longer available (last produced in 2014 IIRC) and much more closely related to the 8qt/7qt family of machines. Also don't fall for the glass bowl hype. They're AWFUL to use and live with. Also the accessories don't work with anything else.
That machine is basically the 600 series with a glass bowl and all the issues that come with it. Prior to being sold as a 6500 it was sold as the 600 Designer Series.
Hopefully it clears things up for ya
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perfect. as i suspected and thought.

quality to me = professional level versus consumer, as in Commercial use.

I do cook in commercial quantities but less frequently than a commercial business. example, making 8-10 pizza pie doughballs at once or mixing two cheesecake batters at once.

all other KA mixers, not in the Commercial line are consumer to prosumer at best.

I don't refer to bowl size as once you buy a chassis, most of the bowls are interchangeable. as in i can use/deploy a smaller bowl on a commercial model.

as for the glass bowl unit, that all marketing. i'm seeking form and function and long lasting tools.

i'll stick with the commercial line and buy one of those. my kids will enjoy it when i'm gone one day.
 
So I ordered the KSM7586. I actually bought the KP26 yesterday (I haven't opened it) and then read more after the fact and with Larry's input decided I'd be happier with the Pro Line. I don't do the volume that Brett does, nor do I know how to make the food he makes, so I'll stick with a prosumer version or whatever it would be called and I have a feeling I'll be very happy with it and the longer warranty :)
 
You will thoroughly enjoy that 7qt. Internally it's identical to the Commercial 8qt. It just doesn't come with NSF attachments or the long orange heavy gauge cord. And it's VERY versatile. You can buy a 5qt (note for the wide frame 5qt model only) 6qt or 8qt bowl and the cool thing is the dough hook, wire whip and flat beater will all work with all the bowls. The only thing you have to be careful of is the dough hook and paddle(s) are not dishwasher safe as the NSF ones are. You can use it but it will eventually damage the coating on them. So for the $$$$ it's a great buy
 
LMichaels said:
You will thoroughly enjoy that 7qt. Internally it's identical to the Commercial 8qt. It just doesn't come with NSF attachments or the long orange heavy gauge cord. And it's VERY versatile. You can buy a 5qt (note for the wide frame 5qt model only) 6qt or 8qt bowl and the cool thing is the dough hook, wire whip and flat beater will all work with all the bowls. The only thing you have to be careful of is the dough hook and paddle(s) are not dishwasher safe as the NSF ones are. You can use it but it will eventually damage the coating on them. So for the $$$$ it's a great buy
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exactly! same DC motor w/o the NSF certifications. this unit is a great value! excellent choice.
 
BFletcher said:
So I ordered the KSM7586. I actually bought the KP26 yesterday (I haven't opened it) and then read more after the fact and with Larry's input decided I'd be happier with the Pro Line. I don't do the volume that Brett does, nor do I know how to make the food he makes, so I'll stick with a prosumer version or whatever it would be called and I have a feeling I'll be very happy with it and the longer warranty :)
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the KSM7 IS the entry level Commercial unit with the DC motor. this is a great unit. excellent choice. you can make really firm dough breads and such, lots of pizza pies, cookies galore, cakes till you explode and more. the "commercial" branded units are the same base as you bought but with NSF bowl and accessories.
 
BFletcher said:
So I ordered the KSM7586. I actually bought the KP26 yesterday (I haven't opened it) and then read more after the fact and with Larry's input decided I'd be happier with the Pro Line. I don't do the volume that Brett does, nor do I know how to make the food he makes, so I'll stick with a prosumer version or whatever it would be called and I have a feeling I'll be very happy with it and the longer warranty :)
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Like 4 4lbs 10oz cheesecakes at a time?

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BFletcher said:
So I ordered the KSM7586. I actually bought the KP26 yesterday (I haven't opened it) and then read more after the fact and with Larry's input decided I'd be happier with the Pro Line. I don't do the volume that Brett does, nor do I know how to make the food he makes, so I'll stick with a prosumer version or whatever it would be called and I have a feeling I'll be very happy with it and the longer warranty :)
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i just got an email from KA. this one, appears to be a step down from your model is on sale for a ridiculous good price, $450, down from $650. it has the AC motor (not commercial level, which would be DC).


the SS attachments represent a good value too!

Model KSM70 Includes​

  • (1) 7-Qt stainless steel bowl
  • (1) Double flex edge beater
  • (1) Stainless steel flat beater
  • (1) Stainless steel dough hook
  • (1) Stainless steel pastry beater
  • (1) Pastry beater scraper
  • (1) 11-wire whip
  • (1) Pouring shield
 
Brett-EDH said:
i just got an email from KA. this one, appears to be a step down from your model is on sale for a ridiculous good price, $450, down from $650. it has the AC motor (not commercial level, which would be DC).
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Nice! Especially given the SS accessories as you noted (plus more than the typical configured models). Did you notice the 1/2 speed feature? You guys have probably heard of that but not me.
 
BFletcher said:
Nice! Especially given the SS accessories as you noted (plus more than the typical configured models). Did you notice the 1/2 speed feature? You guys have probably heard of that but not me.
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this appears to be a very high end AC motor unit with a large work bowl. it's value priced with all those SS accessories included.

i just discovered that KA has an affinity program for certain professions. i got my wife to validate her profession and it's worth 25% off retail so i think i found a way to get that commercial 8qt unit for a very good price now. i was struggling with spending $800 for a mixer. That's 50 pizzas at $16 each to recoup my buy cost (retail priced). now it's 37.5 $16 pizzas with discount. i can afford that :ROFLMAO:
 
Brett you're WAY too fixated on the motor as AC or DC. Even the so called AC motor is a DC motor. What is more important is the gear box. All KA stand mixers use DC to run the motors. Every last one of them. Even most of the hand mixers do. The gear box design is FAR FAR FAR more important. The motors (that are shown as "AC" are actually WAY more powerful motors than the so called "DC" ones. For durability and actual strength it's the gear box. As for that 7qt model using the older style motor? Upping the motor wattage does nothing. As the actual ability of the machine will be limited by the gear box design. The older very limited worm drive gear box is pretty over taxed as it is with 6qt. Upping the wattage and bowl size would not bode well. It will rip itself to bits.
Also for $399 or less (many times I see them as low as $279) the 6qt at Costco would be the absolute best deal going. But from a technical aspect the motor is not the important part. Pay close attention to the photos I posted of the machines on the inside. The one I had opened up is basically the same design pioneered by Hobart (KitchenAid division) way back in the early 30s Going back to the little 3A. That design does not scale up well and is what you see in the open gear box I photographed. There just is not enough space in that little housing to make everything stout enough to stand up consistently to that huge (AC as you call it) motor. Truthfully it is not a machine I would advise anyone to buy.
Really the only advantage of the permanent magnet motor machine over the other design is by using magnets the motor can be more compact allowing for a FAR more robust constant mesh gear box rather than the noisy, sloppy and archaic worm drive unit
 
LMichaels said:
Also for $399 or less (many times I see them as low as $279) the 6qt at Costco would be the absolute best deal going.
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Larry, can you please check this recommendation? The one I'm currently seeing at Costco.com (OOS at the moment) is a Series 6, which is part of the Pro 600 line (I think).
 
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