Minion method struggles


 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Davidd:
has there been new guidance when using the minion method to increase the number of briquets with the newer version of kingsford (post 2006)?

the reason I ask, i've tried twice with poor results when following the method for hot climates, filling the bowl and heating 20 briquets, dumping them on top, etc. I have found the 20 hot briquets very inqadequate. I realize next time i'll just incr the number to about 30 but wondered why this method has proven problematic to me. I wondered if the orig method was with the orig generation of kingsford and without the ask, lite the others faster. I could not get my temps up for almost 2 hrs, it finally settled in but with stoking from me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Let me start off with saying that I've never actually cooked on a WSM. I bought mine three days ago and am waiting for Sunday to try it out. I have modded a cheap brinkman to act as a WSM. Closed all the gap around the lid, added a damper up top, added holes on bottom that I fill with foil to get the amount of air I need, created a charcoal basket similar to WSM, etc. While I may not be the most knowledgable on the WSM just yet I have had a similar experience.

I've done dozens of smokes on it using what sounds like the exact same method you explained and the only time I had any problem was with some kingsford charcoal that I had under my carport for a few days kinda close to the edge of the roof. I never really got up to temp and I'm guessing alittle humidity (summer time louisiana humidity) or rain splattered on the bag and dampened the charcoal. Since then I've kept my charcoal in my garage in a big rubbermaid box packed tightly. Never had any problems since. If both of your smokes used the charcoal from the same bag of kingsford, it very well could have been moist charcoal or something similar. I'd try a new bag with the same method cause it works so well for everyone I know I just can't imagine it's anything other than the charcoal. Be sure to let them get burning hot before throwing them on and leave the vents 100% til you get up to target.
 
I usually add around 10-15 lit briqs on top and haven't had problems coming up to temp. It takes longer when I use water, but that's to be expected.
 
Obviously, LOTS of variables are in play when it comes to everyone's cookers tending to run at various temps....but I'll go ahead and state the obvious.
icon_biggrin.gif


Now while each variable might not be much by itself, they all can add up if you think about it: "cold" heat sink amounts (water in pan and meat amounts) or "hot" heat sink mass amounts (clay pot base or sand, foil), weather conditions, how "tight" a particular wsm is, user habits (amount of lit/kind of charcoal)....and others I know I missed.

For instance, if I put thirty pound of pork butt on my cooker right out of the fridge, that's gonna make getting up to 250* quite slow, especially since my cooker runs rather cool and I use water in the pan. That's a whole different ballgame from putting one seven pound pork butt or brisket flat on the top grate and using nothing in the pan but foil.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm in no hurry anyway </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Then try just spreading the lit on the unlit. It's a slower come-up than the center hole thing.

After literally hundreds of cooks, I've never had sooty meat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For instance, if I put thirty pound of pork butt on my cooker right out of the fridge, that's gonna make getting up to 250* quite slow, </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It will. And allowing the cooker to come to temp first, then adding a heat sink does not seem to me to be a very good idea. Even if it isn't thirty pounds, why let the cooker come to temp then screw with the draft by opening the cooker and add whatever mass of meat? This does not make sense to me.
 
Kevin, I'm not concerned as much about charcoal efficiency and draft as I am about getting the cook up and going, especially if trying to cook bbq all day in time for supper.

If I load a bunch of meat on my cooker at 250*, it'll recover in temp. much quicker than if I load it at 225*. What really messes with the draft is having to unseat the lid after putting the meat on because the therm seems stuck. Like I said though, every cooker is different, and I'm sure that lots of guy's cookers would overshoot their target and burn up a lot of charcoal the way I do it.
 
Okay...but why would you load at 225? Surely, with a Minion start, you're not at 225 when the lit gets added - and the meat, imo, should. If, in that situation, your come-up is not as quick as you'd like, a simple addition of a few more lit at that outset, for your next cook, solves the problem.

This way no lifting the lid after the cook has started; no adding a heat sink after the cook has started (adding the meat at the outset means it is warming as the cooker temp rises).

I'm not so concerned about charcoal efficiency either - per se - but do like efficient cooks on my end. Getting the whole shebang going from the get-go is far more efficient to me, as it leaves me to do other things (I am NOT one to hang about the cooker) wondering...

This (fairly ancient, now) brisket cook post is typical: Up to 300 (with a door prop) in an hour - with just a couple dozen lit - good ol' regular Kingsford. Yes, no water, but with very hot water at the outset I'm hitting low/slow targets within the same time period, all added/assembled/loaded at once - and I'm on to sauce and side creation, or fencing, horse stuff, whatever.
 
I live in the very humid Mississippi River valley and I have noticed that charcoal is slow to build heat if the bag of charcoal was stored exposed to the high humidity. I believe the briquets absorb the humidity making it hard to light and slow to spread until the heat produced dries out the surrounding briquets and then the temps start to rise.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Okay...but why would you load at 225? Surely, with a Minion start, you're not at 225 when the lit gets added - and the meat, imo, should. If, in that situation, your come-up is not as quick as you'd like, a simple addition of a few more lit at that outset, for your next cook, solves the problem.

This way no lifting the lid after the cook has started; no adding a heat sink after the cook has started (adding the meat at the outset means it is warming as the cooker temp rises).

I'm not so concerned about charcoal efficiency either - per se - but do like efficient cooks on my end. Getting the whole shebang going from the get-go is far more efficient to me, as it leaves me to do other things (I am NOT one to hang about the cooker) wondering...

This (fairly ancient, now) brisket cook post is typical: Up to 300 (with a door prop) in an hour - with just a couple dozen lit - good ol' regular Kingsford. Yes, no water, but with very hot water at the outset I'm hitting low/slow targets within the same time period, all added/assembled/loaded at once - and I'm on to sauce and side creation, or fencing, horse stuff, whatever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding amount of lit briqs, on my long cooks I use a propane torch to light all the top layer except for the outside perimeter, where I'm going to have the ends of my wood chunks. I've used various amounts of lit briqs in my chimney, but the torch heats up the whole charcoal ring and seems to be more efficient. Also, my briqs are already arranged and heaped to the max with just enough space to lay wood chunks on.

Anyway, you're saying I should load the meat IMMEDIATELY after lighting and adding water/wood. Right? OK, but on my cooker, even if adding HOT water, I'll have to crack the door or unseat the lid to get the temp up to target in a reasonable time. I've tried "lighting and loading" like this before, but after reseating the lid the temp comes back down dramatically.

I do see the efficiency in heating the meat at the same time I preheat the cooker, but it can be quite a task if cooking a lot at once. I'll just try to get the temp well OVER my target next time before reseating the lid and see how it goes.

Thanks for the input, and please let me know if I'm missing something. Much appreciated.
 
Dave,

Excuse me while I but in this conversation
icon_smile.gif
I bet if you had a extra vent in the top it would...............
icon_cool.gif


What I have learned and been doing is this: I really don't bother much anymore with temps at the beginning of a long cook, I simply leave all vents open for 30 min if a light load and 1hr if a heavy load then set the bottoms to 30% and check later or in the morning.
 
Not that I can see.

I do not often do a lot at once. Very rare occasions and it has been quite some time. When needing to do a lot of meat I do two cooks, or three. I do not like crowding meat - and I do not do mixed meat cooks ever. On those rare occasions where I have had a rather full cooker I just start with more lit. I do not recall the come-up being dramatically slower - but it's not something I really focused on, apparently, because I don't really remember. (I don't recall being frustrated with it though, something i think I would recall.)

I am not, however, saying you should do anything. If something works for you, fine. My point is/was that I fdon't see the rationale behind waiting for a temp rise before loading the meat, when doing a Minion start. From a cooking science perspective it does not make sense to me.

I'll admit to being somewhat confused here: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've tried "lighting and loading" like this before, but after reseating the lid the temp comes back down dramatically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come down from what? If one is loading at assembly there is no valid temp the cooker is coming down from. Whatever the therm says immediately upon assembly isn't important - it's just the temp from the handful or two of lit - period. The issue is what happens after assembly, say, in the next 20 minutes or so - how the lit starts the unlit, the draft establishment, interaction with heat sink(s), etc.

I would argue my point for typical cooks with typical quantities. Waiting to load the meat does not make sense on any level to me. (Especially if one is having some sort of problems with the cook. If not, it still doesn't make sense but have at it one prefers.) On large quantity cooks I'm less inclined to argue the point, simply becasue I would have to do a couple, both ways, and see if there is something I am missing in the dynamics. I don't think I am but I could be wrong. If the situation arises I will do just that. But I avoid large quantity cooks whenever possible. Could happen though.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glenn W:
Dave,

Excuse me while I but in this conversation
icon_smile.gif
I bet if you had a extra vent in the top it would...............
icon_cool.gif


What I have learned and been doing is this: I really don't bother much anymore with temps at the beginning of a long cook, I simply leave all vents open for 30 min if a light load and 1hr if a heavy load then set the bottoms to 30% and check later or in the morning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glenn, thanks for the tip. That's a great sell for installing another top vent and I might just do that since I don't use the therm, anyway.

Also, thanks for the over-night vent setting suggestions, and I guess I just need to quit worrying about how long it takes to get up to temp. It's been a long time since I cooked overnight with the vents at less than 50% open, though. I need to find onother plastic drum and not cut the whole bottom out this time. It really seemed to help hold heat, but after I cut the whole bottom out it warped.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
...I'll admit to being somewhat confused here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've tried "lighting and loading" like this before, but after reseating the lid the temp comes back down dramatically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come down from what? If one is loading at assembly there is no valid temp the cooker is coming down from. Whatever the therm says immediately upon assembly isn't important - it's just the temp from the handful or two of lit - period. The issue is what happens after assembly, say, in the next 20 minutes or so - how the lit starts the unlit, the draft establishment, interaction with heat sink(s), etc.

I would argue my point for typical cooks with typical quantities. Waiting to load the meat does not make sense on any level to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, I've done the "light and load" method you suggest, but the temp is just ridiculously slow in coming up...even if starting off with more than half a chimney of lit like I used to. The only options at that point are either cracking the door or the lid, but after closing back, the temp will fall back much more than I'd expect. Guess I need to take Glenn's suggestion and not worry about a slow start up on overnight cooks. The meat's gonna eventually heat up.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vaughan:
IMHO temp control units and fans are a crutch for the folks that do not want to learn the skills necessary to manually control the temp in hot, cold, or rainy weather. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think standing outside at 4am in the rain to make sure my temps are stable sucks, so pardon me while I sleep on my crutch...and you show off your temp control skills
icon_smile.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vaughan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
I will repeat myself: I have no idea why anyone waits to put on the meat after assembling. It makes no sense to me (unless one is firing with the Standard Method - something I never do). Half a chimney of lit is much more lit than one needs for a Minion start in Orlando but, regardless, there is no reason to wait to load the meat with a Minion start - especially if using a temp controller. I don't get it.

Temp control units require neither water nor ceramic. That's one of the key points of having one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin,

IMHO temp control units and fans are a crutch for the folks that do not want to learn the skills necessary to manually control the temp in hot, cold, or rainy weather. I get great pleasure in firing up the smoker and pegging the temp at the level I want hour after hour - no matter the conditions. Although I am new to the WSM and experienced in using a Char-Griller, I can peg the temp at 240, or any temp I want, for as long as I want. I highly recommend that everyone learn how to control temps manually before going to a control unti/fan.

V/R </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally don't much like the temp control systems and fans. It takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. You start adding electricity and automatic controls and you might as well just put it in the oven.
 
I can take that a step further and say, forget the WSM might as well build a natural pit in the ground!
icon_wink.gif


I know how to smoke. Done it for 7 years. The WSM is an awesome tool. I don't even care for her. Stuck outside for 7 years never covered, once. Never cleaned up after. Sometimes for months. When it's time to cook clean the grates, fire it up and bam still works great.

That said, I'm about to buy a temp control system. I know how to use it manually. But I'm neurotic. I check it every 15-30 minutes. It's maddening. It hasn't budged in 3 hours yet I'm checking it every few minutes.

If there is sufficient fuel I feel an auto system will quell that urge after a few test runs.

Btw in the oven you won't get that bark nor smoke flavor. So I wouldn't go that far
 
and that's why I love my guru. I don't have to ever worry about checking temps. Not to mention that New England weather is far from consistent, so the Guru helps me ensure perfection.

Plus it allows for a full night sleep when cooking overnight.


I disagree that it takes the "fun" out of it, because checking/manipulating the vent settings throughout a cook doesn't sound like "fun." That sounds like "work." I save work for the weekdays.

I want to be able to rip Bud heavies & know that my Guru will handle the temp. while I lubricate myself.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vaughan:
I get great pleasure in firing up the smoker and pegging the temp at the level I want hour after hour - no matter the conditions. Although I am new to the WSM and experienced in using a Char-Griller, I can peg the temp at 240, or any temp I want, for as long as I want...V/R </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd rather have one of Vaughan's "How to Peg 240* on the WSM" videos over a stinkin' AUTOmatic Temp Controller.
icon_biggrin.gif


(Just kiddin' around, Vaughan.
icon_wink.gif
)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stuart S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vaughan:
IMHO temp control units and fans are a crutch for the folks that do not want to learn the skills necessary to manually control the temp in hot, cold, or rainy weather. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think standing outside at 4am in the rain to make sure my temps are stable sucks, so pardon me while I sleep on my crutch...and you show off your temp control skills
icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said anything about standing out in the rain at 4AM? I do not have to stand out in the rain at 4AM.....all ya gotta do is get the vents set and go to bed. Suggest you try learning how to use plain, simple vent control before making a post of this nature.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vaughan:
Who said anything about standing out in the rain at 4AM? I do not have to stand out in the rain at 4AM.....all ya gotta do is get the vents set and go to bed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just what are we smoking?
icon_wink.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.all ya gotta do is get the vents set and go to bed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gotta agree with you. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Guess I need to take Glenn's suggestion and not worry about a slow start up on overnight cooks. The meat's gonna eventually heat up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I wouldn't worry about it at all. I don't. It'll get there - or somewhere. It's too easy to adjust temps in the morning, either by bumping them up to speed a slow cook, or lowering them to milk the time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

 

Back
Top