Learn Me How To Use A Vortex....


 
I was looking more for temps and times for cooking.... I know most of the newer kettles with lid thermometers go up to 600 --- some 700?
I haven't cooked at such extreme lid temps much, so I was more worried about over cooking and drying out the thighs..... I'm realizing now that those were silly fears --- ROCK IT HOT and trust your gut without flipping is what I've learned from that last cook.

I had the second leftover from that cook last night.... I've got to say the reheat REALLY surprised me! Hands down some of the most flavorful chicken I have ever made! And thats from a reheat....

I pulled some more thighs out of the freezer for probably a Sunday cook --- I'm expecting it to be even better! Unfortunately the skins are already slit and prepped for the gasser..... I only cook half a flat at a time and toss the other half in the freezer and I've been in the habit of prepping them all at once.
 
part of what makes a vortex work is the cone shape itself. it increases convection dramatically. moreso than just using a slightly tapered coffee can which will give you more radiative heat (or not as much convection). Putting the foil down under the chicken will not only make clean up easier, but more readily force the air up through your coffee can rig and maybe bring back more of that convection action which will crisp the chicken faster too. that's why vortex users typically rock close to 700 degrees. It's also why convection ovens are a thing.
I said that this was 'REDNECK' and that I didn't want to go into semantics.... but so many want to.... I hope no one takes offense to this post....

Yes I am an engineer.... I had my heat transfer and fluid dynamics courses and am well versed in heat capacities/thermal coeff/mass/latent heats .... I ran industrial furnaces that went to 2000 C . I know HEAT - I understand the fundamentals - I need help with the process. The taper on a 'vortex' is really a poor and inefficient venturi - its more of a reducer/constriction --- no real difference from my redneck can that is more of an orifice that produces the same effect. The reality is is that the chimney effect is going to overwhelm any venturi effect (by the way thats marketing bs) at the temps running in the grill. There is nothing about a 'cone' that adds any swirl effect to the grill -- it needs features like a 'fire dail' for that - fins in the middle - but even that would be ineffective.... The only REAL difference between my setup and a vortex is the slanted sides that 'may' radiate heat in different directions. The whole concept is congregating the coals in a 'chimney' in the center of the grill..... some designs 'will' be better, but its still the same principle.

Like I said.... I'm not willing to pay for one - I can make one out of sheet SS or a SS bowl for less - thats me. The whole reason I got the kettle was to get the same flavor of the WSM for smaller cooks without wasting a **** ton of coal - there is something wrong with spending $3 on coal to cook $2 worth of chicken ---- it has to be viable - I'm not one to just 'fill it up for the cook and hope you can put out the extra' kinda guy. I've got three full tanks of propane that are cheap to run on the gassers..... problem is, the flavor off the kettle CAN NOT BE BEAT.

I hope I don't offend anyone... its my quest to make chicken thighs as tasty as possible....as cheap as possible.... and after having the LAST thigh from the last cook ---- I'm convinced I'm on the right track and looking forward to the next cooks. It takes ALOT to impress me now for chicken/smoke/seasoning/glaze flavor ---- the last cook did it! 3-4 day leftovers SAY IT ALL --- amazing.

Wait til I show you what I do on the next cook.....
 
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……. Just pile up the coal in a big pile against one edge in your kettle……I mean it’s the same thing right?
edit: changing what I initally wrote as it sounds like I'm a know-it-all no, the vortex gets the heat going. I mean GOING

I don't think a pile on the side will get as hot as a vortex. I've used piles in CBs on the side and they get hot, but not this hot. I could be wrong but the vortex really gets the fire GOING. /end-edit

this was a mix of leftover lump coal and briquettes vortex on the coal rack on the lower level of the WSK E6.

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edit: changing what I initally wrote as it sounds like I'm a know-it-all no, the vortex gets the heat going. I mean GOING

I don't think a pile on the side will get as hot as a vortex. I've used piles in CBs on the side and they get hot, but not this hot. I could be wrong but the vortex really gets the fire GOING. /end-edit

this was a mix of leftover lump coal and briquettes vortex on the coal rack on the lower level of the WSK E6.

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Again, I just bought a vortex and have used it a few times.

I noticed that with a similar quantity of briquettes, the WSC will max out the dome thermometer in short order using the vortex.

I haven’t seen that happen using only the charcoal baskets.

Does that make sense?
 
I said that this was 'REDNECK' and that I didn't want to go into semantics.... but so many want to.... I hope no one takes offense to this post....

Yes I am an engineer.... I had my heat transfer and fluid dynamics courses and am well versed in heat capacities/thermal coeff/mass/latent heats .... I ran industrial furnaces that went to 2000 C . I know HEAT - I understand the fundamentals - I need help with the process. The taper on a 'vortex' is really a poor and inefficient venturi - its more of a reducer/constriction --- no real difference from my redneck can that is more of an orifice that produces the same effect. The reality is is that the chimney effect is going to overwhelm any venturi effect (by the way thats marketing bs) at the temps running in the grill. There is nothing about a 'cone' that adds any swirl effect to the grill -- it needs features like a 'fire dail' for that - fins in the middle - but even that would be ineffective.... The only REAL difference between my setup and a vortex is the slanted sides that 'may' radiate heat in different directions. The whole concept is congregating the coals in a 'chimney' in the center of the grill..... some designs 'will' be better, but its still the same principle.

Like I said.... I'm not willing to pay for one - I can make one out of sheet SS or a SS bowl for less - thats me. The whole reason I got the kettle was to get the same flavor of the WSM for smaller cooks without wasting a **** ton of coal - there is something wrong with spending $3 on coal to cook $2 worth of chicken ---- it has to be viable - I'm not one to just 'fill it up for the cook and hope you can put out the extra' kinda guy. I've got three full tanks of propane that are cheap to run on the gassers..... problem is, the flavor off the kettle CAN NOT BE BEAT.

I hope I don't offend anyone... its my quest to make chicken thighs as tasty as possible....as cheap as possible.... and after having the LAST thigh from the last cook ---- I'm convinced I'm on the right track and looking forward to the next cooks. It takes ALOT to impress me now for chicken/smoke/seasoning/glaze flavor ---- the last cook did it! 3-4 day leftovers SAY IT ALL --- amazing.

Wait til I show you what I do on the next cook.....
offend? no. i'm not offended.

but IMO, when you ask for advice, ask why you did didn't get you the results you wanted, and then you appear to get argumentative or all offended yourself when people tell you what you don't seem to like hearing, it's disrespectful. Not offensive. Not that I wanted to "go into semantics"...

I'm no grilling pitmaster, I don't use a Vortex, and no one will care that I, too, have an engineering degree. But MY OWN EXPERIENCE is why I commented what I commented. A coffee can didn't work for me, my baskets worked a little better, and a buddy's Vortex worked the best so I don't know what to tell you. Even a POOR venturi works better at developing CONVECTION (not radiative heat from the tapered sides) which will give you the results you were looking for. Go to a dollar store and get a dog food bowl or a mixing bowl, and cut a hole out of the bottom. It works better than a coffee can, and cheap enough for at least SOME redneck.

But that's my opinion, what do I know.
I apologize to the forum for the drama. There's enough of that BS around.
 
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You can also dry brine them for a bit before you add anything else to them.
Little kosher salt on the skin and let set in the fridge on a cooling rack and pan for an hour or so before you cook em.
If you add any bbq rub or seasoning to them just remember you pre salted them.
Helps alot
 
edit: changing what I initally wrote as it sounds like I'm a know-it-all no, the vortex gets the heat going. I mean GOING

I don't think a pile on the side will get as hot as a vortex. I've used piles in CBs on the side and they get hot, but not this hot. I could be wrong but the vortex really gets the fire GOING. /end-edit

this was a mix of leftover lump coal and briquettes vortex on the coal rack on the lower level of the WSK E6.

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Thanks Dan I was being just a tad facetious........refer to all my posts on this thread.
 
Jim — all the comments about flipping, saucing, corn starch are valid. But those would apply to any cook generically.

I think your diy vortex just doesn’t generate enough volume of high convection heat. Too small, too few coals, too choked. The Vortex wide bottom provides space for more coals (heat) and the funnel provides more airflow velocity (convection).

Make a bigger can and angle the sides. You’ll get more heat and convection. Medium vortex (recommended for a 22 kettle) is 12 wide at the bottom and 8 wide at the top. What size is your diy?

The reason why my gasser does wings very well is because gassers cook primarily via convection. That is what you want for wings. Lots of airflow. By using a Vortex, you are trying to make your charcoal grill (primarily a radiation cooker) into a very high heat convection cooker.

Not an engineer, but don’t Venturi and/or Bernoulli tell us that constricted space increases velocity? If you keep grill temp same but increase velocity, stuff on the grill cooks faster and browns more. Isn’t that why there’s a fan in a convection oven?

TLDR, I think your issue is primarily too low flow, and secondarily too low heat.
 
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Thanks Jim --- thats the kinda critique and input I was looking for!
The dims for my 'can' are ~8.5" on the bottom and the hole cutout on the top is ~5.5". I guessed that would approximate the taper on the vortex to affect the air flow similarly --- ignoring that there is a step instead of a straight taper..... And I would have guessed that the step would create more of a turbulent flow than the taper actually that would help disperse the high heat.... I still assert that the 'chimney effect' is still the predominant action being that they are only 5" tall --- look at the charcoal starters -- straight walled and they rage just as hard as the vortex --- getting a coal bed stacked and deep and containing it around the side is going to make it hot no matter what the wall shape/angle. I was hypothesizing that the reason for the steep taper on the vortex was more driven for added coal volume while also not taking away too much (indirect) cooking area on the grate myself.....



So I ran it again last night with some more thighs.
I tucked a nice big chunk of plum in the middle of my can and filled it up with coal. I was 'hoping' that by the time the coal was ready to cook that the wood would also be burning cleanly..... 20230723_160515.jpg20230723_160720.jpg


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I used the gas assist for ~ 5 minutes to start it up...... smoked like hell for ~15-20 minutes as the coal and wood caught..... and then all of a sudden - POOF - the clouds of white smoke were gone leaving just the wisps of white smoke from the wood. Strange that there were still some coals that weren't greyed, but at least all the 'coal smoke' was gone.

Ran it with the vents wide open - put the lid on to heat everything up.... it got RAGING ---- I actually left the thermometer in to see what it would read.... Yes --- it went all the way around burying 550....
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Not sure what the actual temp was --- but I'm guessing it was 700-750 by best estimate. I let the chicken rock with the temp needle between 6 and 7 oclock (I didn't feel good about torturing my thermometer like this, but I was curious).
I left the chicken alone -- added a couple of smaller chunks of plum here and there.... let it go for ~50-55 minutes - temp held above/past 6 oclock the whole time. The skin was definitely rendering, but still not crisp.

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The two smaller thighs were looking like they were drying out and figuring that almost an hour at ~700 was pushing my luck..... so I sauced them to set the glaze and called it good. At that point the temp had started to drop to just above 550.
I think they turned out pretty well.....

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While not 'oven crisp skin' --- it was definitely a big improvement and gave a pretty decent bite. Flavor was great --- although I didn't notice alot of smoke last night - I was pretty smoke blind (and drunk) by that point after letting them rest for ~45 minutes.

So what I concluded ----
- The 'can' does work when run wide open (YES!)
- My main mistake on the last cook was throttling it back to 550..... I'm still new to this HOT cooking stuff.
- As Jim mentioned - it is a little small for what its trying to do --- it did get the high heat, but it did start to die off at the end of the cook. more coal 'may' have gotten higher temps - but it would have held the temp longer for sure. It could be that omitting the chunk of wood for more coal would have been all it would've taken. But the sizing and capacity are damn close for what is needed for a thigh cook - probably perfect for a drumstick cook.
- It sucks not having a heat guard on the lid handle!!!!!


I'll definitely be looking for a stainless bowl to fashion up a better version --- I actually did try to find one some time ago but came up empty or too over priced --- thats why I ended up with this redneck version to try out to see if it was worth it. Now I know what I need to look for size wise. Hopefully I'll be able to find one at the thrift store or a garage sale for cheap so that I can put money towards a master grate.

Next round I'll put just coal in the can and place the chunk on the grate to get more heat (maybe) and a longer cook. I'm still kind of baffled why the skin isn't crisping more with such high heat...?...? Thighs have always been harder to crisp - even on the gasser - without some direct heat and some collateral burning and flare ups. I'm definitely going to give some drumsticks a try soon too! I think they will be much easier.

I did so some searching on amazon and ran across these that look promising and fairly cheap....
I'm not sure what dimensions to believe..... looks like I need to stay below 5" height for the standard grill - but could go higher if I commit to getting the master grill with the removeable center. Has anyone used a SS bowl? Wondering how hard they are to cut.... I remember it was hard as hell to just drill holes in some smaller stainless bowls that I had modded long ago for the gasser.... Saw or grinder?
 
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IKEA Stainless Steel bowl ($10) works well for me. I also like how the shape echos that of my Weber Kettle.

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Nice! Thats CLASSY redneck there!
I notice the leather gloves on the table.... I know why and will add to my grilling equipment.

It 'looks' like you also removed the top rim of the bowl too?...? I'm guessing that was to get the height right? I hadn't considered that part of the equation.... I kept thinking making only one cut on the base of the bowl to get the height and possibly losing too much taper.... I'll keep that in mind now.

Running wide open the whole time?
 
Medium is perfect for a 22”
The thing to remember is watch the first few cooks like a hawk! Things can be done in the twinkling of a cocktail stirrer!
But not for long?

I noticed that with the vortex cranking out the heat, the coals burn out faster.

I cooked chicken thighs last night, indirect with the vortex.

Around 40 minutes and the skin was nice and crispy.

I brined some fresh eggplant from the garden and wanted to do a quick direct sear on them, but the heat had died down.

Took longer than I expected.
 
Jim — I think the height limit is another reason for the vortex angle funnel shape. If you have to keep it low and need space for a lot of coals, the angled shape helps.

If you had a grate with a removable center section, you could experiment with a taller pipe chimney shape. If youd use a loaded Weber chimney as your tool, you’d probably get plenty of heat and flow from just the chimney effect and without any Venturi acceleration.
 
Yanoh..... I've already pretty much proved that to myself when I used the same type of 'can' to make a ~10" tall vortex for my WSM18 --- its height was limited my the water pan/pizza pan for heat deflection. It got it hotter than just the same amount of coals piled or spread on the grate --- I can't remember if I had to throttle the vents - but it basically ran hotter and burned all the coal and chunks FAST...... It was hard to reload with coals and chunks, so I came up with a modified basket for shorter/hotter cooks.

My conclusion was that its more important to gather the coals and get a THICK coal bed rather than a thin widely dispersed bed..... THATS what concentrates the heat --- and having walls - whether straight or sloped just adds to the chimney effect.


It was pretty neat..... I could get lid temps of 300ish while the barrel and the base were still relatively cool to the touch..... the 'can' is basically shielding the lower part of the cooker from the radiant heat while the convection is heating the upper portion......

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This set up will get me ~3 hrs running ~275-300 ---- tapering towards the end for whole chicken cooks. Still more coal than I 'want' to burn for a chicken..... thats why I always do two. I would throw 10-15 lit coals over the top to start it...
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