I made meat mush


 
Jim H.

Jim H.

TVWBB All-Star
I wanted to have some pulled pork ready for lunch yesterday, so I thawed and rinsed off an 8.5 lb. frozen Boston Butt on Friday, left it covered in the fridge overnight until Saturday morning, then I rubbed it with yellow mustard & sprinkled on some rub about 9AM. Then I put it back into the fridge covered with foil. I pulled the shoulder out of the fridge about 7PM to let it warm up a little before putting on my WSM about 10PM. It was on the smoker from 10PM until 1AM, and the temp was a little hotter than usual, around 275° because I had cooked some chicken thighs in it for dinner earlier, but this temp has never been a problem before. I wasn't worried about the slightly higher lid temp, because I put the butt into the oven on 225° overnight because there was rain in the forecast and I had to do some things early Sunday and I couldn't watch it like I usually would.

I put the shoulder into a deep roasting pan with 1 C. apple juice and some water, covered with foil and put into the oven. I got up and checked the temp @ 7AM, and it was reading 207° and 205º in several places, and the thermometer probe went into the overcooked shoulder like a hot knife going through butter. Maybe I should have gotten up earlier than I did and checked the temps and/or probed it for doneness, but I didn't this time. I foiled it & put into a cooler for a few hours until I could get back and pull it because I didn't want it to dry out before lunchtime.

Most of the outer meat & bark was OK, but when I got to some of the internal layers, it was mushy & lost all resemblance of well cooked pork. It was almost like pork butter, if there was such a thing.

I have never had a butt of that size be done in something less than 8 hours before. I verified my oven temp by using an accurate oven thermometer as well as an infrared temp gun, so I don't think that the oven is the problem. Maybe it was just done earlier than I thought it should have been, but to be over 200° in just over 8 hrs. seems a little strange and a lot less time than it usually takes, something around 10-12 hours for an 8.5 lb. shoulder.

Any thoughts on what might have happened?
 
Jim, in my opinion, a "short-cut butt" is never gonna end up like bbq should. That's just my opinion, but pork and beef are different, and although I have no problem with HH/foiled brisket, I'd just as soon pass on the braised and potentially mushy and greasy pork shoulder.

Regarding over-cooking though, I learned on my last cook that I've been overcooking a LOT of the time on my wsm by simply wrapping and holding in a hot cooker after reaching tenderness, even cooking low-n-slow. If your meat was already well over 200*, you did nothing to help it by carrying over residual cooking in foil to the cooler, but yeah, it was very likely already overcooked. I'd think that braising with that much AJ wouldn't be the best thing for the texture either, but foiling butts are not my thing, so take that with a grain of salt. Regarding the residual cooking in a cooler though, this is even more an issue with HH cooks, which is reflected by the higher final IT. If it's done way too early to let cool a bit and still hold at a safe temp without overcooking, I'll just pull, chill, and heat later.
 
I think foiling for that long of a period may have caused the problem......low and slow overnight doesn't require foil.

Maybe the foil held the heat and moisture in such a way that it speeded up the cooking process and turned the pork to mush?
 
I have done several shoulders this way over the past couple of years, and never had a problem. I do agree that next time I won't foil so much, and I will let it cool uncovered before I put into the cooler, if I put it in the cooler at all.
 
Originally posted by Jim H.:
I have done several shoulders this way over the past couple of years, and never had a problem. I do agree that next time I won't foil so much, and I will let it cool uncovered before I put into the cooler, if I put it in the cooler at all.
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Jim, yeah, thinking about it more, I think the reason for your dissatisfaction was simply that it overcooked, both in the oven on in the cooler. I like butt bark too much to cook like that, though.

I've cooked butts fast and slow and my last two were as good as any I've ever ate or smoked, both a little over nine pounds on the wsm for 16 hrs, and they never were wrapped. I just tented both of them in a huge mixing bowl while I took my shower and then it was all I could to stop myself from sitting down to a plateful at 11:30pm. I'll never rest in foil for long again, and if I do cooler, I'll stick a probe in one of the butts just to monitor the temp. and make sure it doesn't continue to rise.

I just hope to be able to duplicate my results next time keeping the temp avg. no lower than 250* so I can get 'em done in an all day smoke.
 
Maybe Kevin will jump in here but here's what I think happened. Foiling with liquid in the bottom helps to transfer the heat into the meat much quicker than uncovered.

I'm assuming that you had the oven at 225-250 which is above the boiling point of water so you sort of steamed it into submission. That said though, 200-205 internal temp is not generally overcooked.

Russ
 
Originally posted by Jim H.:
...it was reading 207° and 205º in several places, and the thermometer probe went into the overcooked shoulder like a hot knife going through butter...I foiled it & put into a cooler for a few hours until I could get back and pull it because I didn't want it to dry out before lunchtime.
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Oh, it was OVER-cooked alright, and maybe all the liquid did speed things up, but Jim reposted that he's done this before with good results.

Hold any pork butt that has an IT over 200* for a "few hours" and it'll end up overcooked. Heck, contrary to popular bbq forum "consensus", you can pull 'em off at 190* and even still have 'em end up a little dry and mushy if you hold in a hot cooler long enough. Sure thing, and I wish I'd learned it a year and a half ago before I got my wsm. I always wondered why the wsm pork butts weren't quite as moist as my old UDS ones that I smoked in under 10 hours and didn't hold for long.
 
Originally posted by Russ Sylvester:
I'm assuming that you had the oven at 225-250 which is above the boiling point of water so you sort of steamed it into submission. That said though, 200-205 internal temp is not generally overcooked.

Russ
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Thanks, Russ. I agree with you that 200-205 isn't overcooked as a rule, but maybe foiling after finding temps that high was overkill. I couldn't pull it right then, so I went with what I usually do - foiled & into a cooler until I could get back home & pull it. I didn't want it to dry out if I left it tented or open while I was away.

Also, I think you may be right about the "steamed into submission" idea (funny, btw!) I have braised butts before using the same method and they are usually very good. I couldn't figure out how an 8.5 lb. butt could be done in less than 8 hours, since I have done full butt cooks in my WSM and they usually take 1.25~1.5 hrs./lb. when done LNS @ 250° or lower, depending on wind & weather. My oven was right on 220°-225° and it is pretty good at maintaining temps for as long as needed.

Dave - I like the convenience of "set it & forget it" butt cooking by finishing in the oven, but I have done full length cooks before and they come out OK, even without foiling and braising. Next time, I may skip the braising part if I choose to finish in the oven or just let them go for the full cook on the WSM.
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It's my belief that the Butt was overcooked because of the braise in the applejuice while covered in foil. To me it's not much different than the late stages of being in a crock-pot.
 
I put the shoulder into a deep roasting pan with 1 C. apple juice and some water, covered with foil and put into the oven. I got up and checked the temp @ 7AM, and it was reading 207° and 205º in several places, and the thermometer probe went into the overcooked shoulder like a hot knife going through butter. Maybe I should have gotten up earlier than I did and checked the temps and/or probed it for doneness,
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Foiling for that long was a problem. As Russ notes, the liquid addition compounded the problem, making it worse. Resting compounded the problem further still.

Internal temperatures are immaterial. 205, 207, 190 - whatever. It doesn't matter. Meat reaches 'done' based on its mass, actual cooktemps, and time. Foiling speeds cooking. Adding liquid can boost this. Internal temperature does not matter and is indicative of nothing.
 
Originally posted by K Kruger:
...Internal temperatures are immaterial. 205, 207, 190 - whatever. It doesn't matter...Internal temperature does not matter and is indicative of nothing.
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So then why do so many folks start checking pork butts for tenderness at an IT of 190*? No, let me rephrase that. I'll go as far to say there's CONSENSUS in the bbq community that 190* is a very good IT to start checking butts at. That's published by many winning competitors, and common knowledge as well....so why say "it doesn't matter"? That probe sure keeps me from worrying with it too soon, and come to think of it, the last time I skipped the probe, I checked too late and overcooked two out of the three butts a little.
 
I would disagree that there is any consensus on one temp or another 'to check for tenderness'. There is a consensus that barbecue needs to be X temp (fill in the value for X) to be done - or if it is Y temp it is overcooked - or whatever. Just look upthread. Many do not check for tenderness at all, they simply pull at a particular temp. For some, like many comp cooks, who use nearly precisely the same cuts of meat, same start-up, same fuel, same cooker, and so on, time after time, they might well know when this or that meat hits this or that temp it is likely to be done to their liking. This is hardly the case for most barbecue cooks, especially if relatively new to it.

But internal temp neither causes 'done' nor does it automatically indicate it. This is why barbecue recipes that say 'remove when the meat is X temp' are so often unsuccessful for many cooks who try them, as we see repeatedly on this board and numerous others.

Discussions of checking for tender - the whys and hows - are relatively recent phenomena in barbecue circles and on barbecue boards. For many, many years it's been all about internal temp. I know many comp cooks and non-comp cooks who could have shortened their practice period by a huge amount of time if their focus had been on leaning how to check for tender rather than focusing on internal temp - and many have and are still doing quite well on the circuit. It just took them longer than it needed to to get there.

Cursory glances at other boards over the past few years have indicated an originally nonexistent to very slow uptick in checking-for-tenderness discussions (often promulgated by members of this board) - because the focus on these boards and in the books of numerous 'masters' has been cooking to a particular internal temp - because it has been long erroneously thought that internal temp either causes or indicates done. The first is not true. The second is true if it happens to work out that way, untrue if it doesn't, and is only reliable if the other numerous variables in the cook align correctly. This can happen with comp cooks or others who frequently cook and try to replicate the variables each time. But it is, imo, far easier to make tenderness the focus. The other variables need not be fretted over as much as we see they are (here and elsewhere) if tenderness if the focus.
 
I'm assuming that you had the oven at 225-250 which is above the boiling point of water so you sort of steamed it into submission.
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Furthermore, the sugar in apple juice will raise the boiling point above that for water. If it boils and concentrates the juice more, it can go higher yet.
 
Kevin, maybe some folks DON'T have a clue about bbq, which is a long tradition of MAKING TOUGH CUTS TASTEFULLY TENDER, long before the use of therms to check meat temps.

Anyhow, regarding the OP's bbq method, I conceed that tracking IT of foiled meat isn't quite as helpful and can be perplexing...especially if we add liquid and/or up the cooking temp. However, cooking pork butt low-n-slow (without foiling) is a different story. It's highly convenient to pick a butt and track IT, knowing that low-n-slow pork butt will reach pulled pork doneness somewhere between 190-200*. It works for me and countless others.
 
Dave & Kevin - I appreciate your input, as well as everyone elses. Learning to cook good 'que is one thing, but being able to consistently repeat that process, regardless of circumstances good or bad is the ultimate goal. It is for me, anyway. Wouldn't it be boring (and make comps unnecessary!) if we all had the perfect formula for producing award winning BBQ? As the old saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Same theory applies to BBQ, imho.

I am learning to develop a feel for doneness without using a thermometer, and that can only be developed through practice. In this instance, I have learned more about what not to do than anything else, and I will apply what I have learned to the next time I use this method.

Thanks again for everyone's input.
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Dave-- You are quite right on all counts:

Once upon a time no one used a thermometer for tracking IT, let alone for establishing a cooking temp. It's been long done now, and oft-repeated, so much so that we see fixations on both cook temps and ITs. This has not been helpful. For time out of mind newer Q cooks have obsessed over cooking and internal temps - they are only concerned about what they see established cooks talking about all the time.

Though knowing the IT can be useful, as you also note, tracking the IT of foiled meat isn't as much. (This is especially the case when cooking at high heat.)

But herein lies the disconnect. Once key variables change significantly other variables that are focused on do too - often to the point of uselessness, but at the very least to the point where they must be used or interpreted differently. What we often see happen, though, in the cook and in the discussion afterward, is once again a focus on temps, as we see in the OP and many of the comments after.

It's not that some people 'don't have a clue about barbecue', it's that their most common sources of information place the primary focus on where it needn't be instead of where it should be: the results on the plate, and that means what the meat looks, smells and feels like.

Jim-- The question I have most often been asked in countless emails over the years is something along the lines of 'what can I do to get consistently good results - and what can I do to get there faster?"

My answer is always the same: Learn what good results are - look, smell and feel. That means cooking, of course, preferably often, but instead of focusing on targeting specific cooktemps (with the always ensuing issue of where, lid or grate) or internal temps, focusing on these issues - look, smell and feel - throughout the cook. Those that abandon their notions of temps get there rather quickly. Those that don't - and many do not as they just can't make the break - take longer, often much longer.

... there's more than one way to skin a cat. Same theory applies to BBQ, imho.
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It does. And the repeated focus on temp targets, cook and internal, do not help. It makes it seem like there is but one way.
 
Ultimately, I should have gotten out of bed earlier to check on the progress rather than sleeping in until my alarm went off.

Next time... I shall redeem myself. BTW - had a leftover pulled pork sandwich for lunch today, and I must say that it still tasted OK even after reheating. You didn't think I was just going to throw it away, did you?
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I predict that some leftover pieces & a little fat will end up in the freezer for baked beans, etc.
 
I think we can agree that using IT to track the progress of your meat is pretty much the norm while "Done" is when the meat is cooked to your (or a judge's) liking. This "doneness" would be dependent on how you plan to handle the meat after removing it from heat (hold vs. pull).
 
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