HH Brisket-Diagnosis Request


 
Tim,

Your WSM sounds exactly like mine. I'm still struggling dialing in a low temperature but I'm getting better.

What Kevin meant by "out of round" is that sometimes on a new smoker the middle section will not be perfectly round. So when you seat it into the bottom section there will be gaps which allow air in. This would be the same as opening the vents and drive your temperature up.

I've used my smoker about 5 times now and even though I thought I checked and adjusted the center section for being out of round, I must be pulling in air from somewhere because I have a heck of a time keeping my temps down. I've haven't looked into yet because I just thought it was a case of after a few cooks it would start to seal itself. However, today I did that peppered chuck recipe found on this site and here is how it went:

Assembled the smoker with a 5# Chuck (Ribeye?) Roast on the top grate at 12PM. Measuring at the grate, when it hit 220F, I closed all the grates expect for the top, of course. I know I have to be this aggressive from past experience. It finally stalled at 260F at the grate and held there.

At 2:30 PM I knew I had a problem because the temperature of the meat wasn't as high as I had expected. I cracked two grates to 10% open and over the next hour the temperature at the grate continued to rise and it was at 300F when I pulled the meat at 3:30PM because I was up against time constraints and had to move it to the oven. When I pulled the chuck it was at 142F and I was hoping to hit 165F. When it got to 138F it hit a wall and took a ton of time to move that last 4 degrees. So your six hours to bring it to 165F doesn't surprise me. If I would have left my smoker at 260-265F at the grate, I'm guessing to get to 165F I was looking at least another couple of hours. I was only at 142F after 3 1/2 hours and that includes a bit of higher temp for the last hour but it does include some lower temperature in the beginning as the temperature at the grate takes time to rise to 260F.

So over the next couple of days, I'm going to recheck that my middle section is making a nice fit and I'm also going to recheck the door but I'm relatively sure the door is pretty darn tight because I've never seen smoke come out of it and I spent quite a bit of time shaping it when I first got it so it would fit snug when closed.
 
David is correct - although this condition can also occur later in ownership if, say, one is preparing for a hurricane and the cooker gets swiftly and roughly moved elsewhere... . That's what happened to mine.

It can be difficult to see an out-of-round condition. Minor gaps around the door are no big deal. (There is no need to have a perfectly sealed door - mine certainly isn't. Unless there is a breeze blowing directly in whatever gaps are there, the proximity of door gaps to fuel is not close enough to matter.) An out-of-round situation can allow sufficient air to enter in close enough proximity to the fuel that vent changes don't have the desired effect.

When it occurred to mine it was hard to see. I solved the problem by fashioning a gasket out of foil.
 
So I have an out of round condition as well and am just to lazy to fix it. I simply use a foil gasket as Kevin does.

Easy way to check is to but a battery powerd light source inside the WSM (some have used a candle) at night or in a dark area or room and then check the joints.

Also a cook in the dark may tell you as well depending how bright the coals are burning, that's actually how I identified mine. Once I added the foil gasket temp were more controllable. Before that it tended to burn hot.
 
I was going to try out a HH Brisket this weekend, but my butcher didn't have what I was looking for, so I picked up 2 big (24# total) butts instead.

You all have me concerned about out of round issues now. On my first cook on my 22" I shut all of the vents and 5 hours later it was still at 220 with the lid therm, which seems aboug 20 degrees lower than when I have a therm in the vent hole. I thought it was just due to being new, but I am going to check tonight.
 
Not uncommon for a WSM to be a little leaky or burn hot when new until you get some build up in it which helps create a seal. A new WSM burning a little hot is not uncommon and doesn't necessarily indicate an out of round condition. If it came new out of round I believe Weber will replace it.
 
Thank you for the excellent feedback. My temps were similar to David's so I don't feel too out of whack. Full ring, vents all the way shut, and I was right around 260 or a bit less with two 4lb chucks.

I'll have to check the "out of round" possibility this weekend. I've used the smoker perhaps a dozen times so I thought the goodness would have sealed it up by now. But I do recall seeing smoke coming out of the gap, so I may go the gasket route.

The only feedback I have to offer with my limited cooking experience is to say that I don't feel the temp issues you describe David should necessarily be viewed as "a problem". Unless you're in a rush for time (which doesn't seem to fit too well with the hobby of smoking), then I've started viewing it as "it takes how long it takes". I try to start cooking early to allow for the variances that seem to naturally occur between smokes.

As an example, the first time I did PSB the chuck got to 165 WAY quicker than this last go at it, but both times the meat turned out pretty similar. I guess I'm moving more towards Kevin's laissez-faire approach and it's working well for me, both in terms of results, and in terms of stress levels. With smoking, as long as I don't do anything too stupid, it seems to have a way of working out for me if I'm patient.

I'll be sure to check out of round soon. Thanks again for the suggestions!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Scott--

I did not say mustard does nothing. Opinion: What little it does, does not seem to me to be worth the trouble. Food science: The vinegar in prepared mustard will denature proteins (tenderize), however it will only work, over time, on the first few millimeters of the meat, that's it, just like any marinade. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried to stay away from this as you seem to be one of those guys that has to be right all the time so I ducked out, but the notion that a marinade has no effect beyond the outer surface is just not true. Marinades do a great deal for the flavor of meat and discounting them based on food science is baseless and wrong.

Last Saturday I took a slab of ribs and cut it into three (close to) equal sections of 3-4 bones each. The first I put a teaspoon of garlic and 6 turns of fresh black pepper on each side (control). The second set I did the garlic and black pepper and apple juice (marinade). The third I did the garlic, black pepper, apple juice and salt (brine).

I left them in the fridge overnight, and then the next day I took them out of their bags, washed them off with water and patted dry. Then I applied the same rub to all three and cooked the same way. The control was a good rib and we enjoyed them. The other two were significantly better ribs.

You can stand behind food science and say that marinades make no difference (or not much to mess with), but I'll stand behind my experiment that I served to myself and another person. The other person was given the ribs blind. Only after he picked which ribs had the most flavor did I tell him how I prepped them.

Guys, brine, marinade, slather in mustard. Or listen to KK here and I guess go with salt and black pepper and skip the rest...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scott Thomas (GrillinFool):
the notion that a marinade has no effect beyond the outer surface is just not true. Marinades do a great deal for the flavor of meat and discounting them based on food science is baseless and wrong.

Last Saturday I took a slab of ribs and cut it into three (close to) equal sections of 3-4 bones each. The first I put a teaspoon of garlic and 6 turns of fresh black pepper on each side (control). The second set I did the garlic and black pepper and apple juice (marinade). The third I did the garlic, black pepper, apple juice and salt (brine).

I left them in the fridge overnight, and then the next day I took them out of their bags, washed them off with water and patted dry. Then I applied the same rub to all three and cooked the same way. The control was a good rib and we enjoyed them. The other two were significantly better ribs.

You can stand behind food science and say that marinades make no difference (or not much to mess with), but I'll stand behind my experiment that I served to myself and another person. The other person was given the ribs blind. Only after he picked which ribs had the most flavor did I tell him how I prepped them.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it not possible that the significantly better flavor (which is subjective, right?) that you and your friend experienced from the marinated vs dry ribs in fact was a result from an improved surface of the meat?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve McKibben:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scott Thomas (GrillinFool):
the notion that a marinade has no effect beyond the outer surface is just not true. Marinades do a great deal for the flavor of meat and discounting them based on food science is baseless and wrong.

Last Saturday I took a slab of ribs and cut it into three (close to) equal sections of 3-4 bones each. The first I put a teaspoon of garlic and 6 turns of fresh black pepper on each side (control). The second set I did the garlic and black pepper and apple juice (marinade). The third I did the garlic, black pepper, apple juice and salt (brine).

I left them in the fridge overnight, and then the next day I took them out of their bags, washed them off with water and patted dry. Then I applied the same rub to all three and cooked the same way. The control was a good rib and we enjoyed them. The other two were significantly better ribs.

You can stand behind food science and say that marinades make no difference (or not much to mess with), but I'll stand behind my experiment that I served to myself and another person. The other person was given the ribs blind. Only after he picked which ribs had the most flavor did I tell him how I prepped them.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it not possible that the significantly better flavor (which is subjective, right?) that you and your friend experienced from the marinated vs dry ribs in fact was a result from an improved surface of the meat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would that matter? If the flavor is significantly better, then it merits doing rather than disregarding due to the fact that it only penetrates minimally through the surface...
 
Oh please. "[O]ne of those guys that [sic] has to be right all the time"? Hardly.

It's very basic Food science. Read Hervé This, Shirley Corrigher, Harold McGee.

Your experiment does not at all 'prove' that that marinades penetrate into the meat, nor rub flavors, nor the vinegar in prepared mustard. It only proves you liked two pieces of the ribs better. That flavorings can be left on the surface is not disputed. Since the human mouth is not able to detect the specific location of the the volatiles on the meat, flavor volatiles remaining on the surface (numerous volatiles are fat soluble so washing won't have the same effect) easily account for your preference. Cured or a 'hammy' flavor aside, in flavor terms, putting the rub on 10 minutes, 1 hour or 10 hours prior does not matter much in that it is not distinguishable in the mouth.

As I stated clearly, "I did not say mustard does nothing. Opinion: What little it does, does not seem to me to be worth the trouble." If you wish to differ in opinion do so. Many do. You and everyone else are free to prep meats any way your opinion goes. We are all entitled to our own opinions. We are not entitled to 'our own' facts. If you want to challenge the science you'll have to do better than that.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Oh please. "[O]ne of those guys that [sic] has to be right all the time"? Hardly.

It's very basic Food science. Read Hervé This, Shirley Corrigher, Harold McGee.

Your experiment does not at all 'prove' that that marinades penetrate into the meat, nor rub flavors, nor the vinegar in prepared mustard. It only proves you liked two pieces of the ribs better. That flavorings can be left on the surface is not disputed. Since the human mouth is not able to detect the specific location of the the volatiles on the meat, flavor volatiles remaining on the surface (numerous volatiles are fat soluble so washing won't have the same effect) easily account for your preference. Cured or a 'hammy' flavor aside, in flavor terms, putting the rub on 10 minutes, 1 hour or 10 hours prior does not matter much in that it is not distinguishable in the mouth.

As I stated clearly, "I did not say mustard does nothing. Opinion: What little it does, does not seem to me to be worth the trouble." If you wish to differ in opinion do so. Many do. You and everyone else are free to prep meats any way your opinion goes. We are all entitled to our own opinions. We are not entitled to 'our own' facts. If you want to challenge the science you'll have to do better than that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for proving the point...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scott Thomas (GrillinFool)
Would that matter? If the flavor is significantly better, then it merits doing rather than disregarding due to the fact that it only penetrates minimally through the surface... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. I didn't emphasize the subjective nature of "better" enough.

You cite compelling evidence that it's worth the time and trouble to you and the friends of yours that did the comparison.
 
Could the same flavors not be put in the meat by incorporating them in a rub? You are already rubbing the meat thereby not adding a step and also not waiting for a day for something to work?

Just by having a control does not make it an effective test. You need blind tasting by several people and then use the results. Tim, please do not take offense to this, but for the fact that you liked the point you were trying to prove doesn't verify much. Either someone else should prepare and label the food, or you should not be part of it. Again, not trying to offend anyone here. I love this forum for the fact topics don't get into rude posts.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Could the same flavors not be put in the meat by incorporating them in a rub? You are already rubbing the meat thereby not adding a step and also not waiting for a day for something to work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. Which is the point I repeat often. It's not that marinating, rubbing ahead, spraying or mopping, among other things, is 'wrong' - certainly one can do any of these if one wishes. But if it's flavor additions we're talking about, one can much more easily add flavor(s) in other ways, easier and, imo, better, than in any of these ways.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight but Scott, you're out of line here. Disagreement is fine but you're misrepresenting things Kevin has written and taking others completely out of context. Not sure why you're taking Kevin's comments personally when none seemed directed at you or were personal in nature.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or listen to KK here and I guess go with salt and black pepper and skip the rest... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?

Been reading here for a good long time (number of years). I don't know how any one can come away from any of Kevin's posts with that perspective.

I've liked your opinions and posts pretty much Scott. Like your web/blog site too the times I've referenced it.

That said I also like having the knowledge of the science behind cooking for reference which is hard to find in many of the typical BBQ books of which there are many (and that I also own). That science transcends all cooking "styles" and it can be applied anywhere. If I still choose to do something regardless well then it's just preference. It applies to recipes, technique, all aspects of the activity. Over time it becomes a filter as you read recipe ingredients, cooking technique, etc. and allows you to change or modify with confidence as it might apply.

I want to understand the science since that pervades throughout. I.E. I have a better understanding of why things happen and get less caught up in ritual behavior thinking that that is what creates the result. Instead I "know" why. If I choose to follow the ritualistic behavior it's because it's fun and I choose to - but now I know why I don't have to and learn other ways that achieve the same result more efficiently.

I've never found any of Kevin's posts to imply that he "needs to be always right".

That will close my comments on the topic. Not looking at all nor have the time for a debate. Just felt compelled to chime in on this since things seemed to take a strange curve to the personal for some reason that I thought was a little out of line or out of context.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSMcdowell:
Could the same flavors not be put in the meat by incorporating them in a rub? You are already rubbing the meat thereby not adding a step and also not waiting for a day for something to work?

Just by having a control does not make it an effective test. You need blind tasting by several people and then use the results. Tim, please do not take offense to this, but for the fact that you liked the point you were trying to prove doesn't verify much. Either someone else should prepare and label the food, or you should not be part of it. Again, not trying to offend anyone here. I love this forum for the fact topics don't get into rude posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've done the test three times. One for myself and twice with other people who tasted the ribs blind. The test is valid. And it's not very hard to do. Try it and get back to me. Don't go all full on lab coat blind taste test with a 1,000 people. Just make up a single slab of ribs. Marinate half the slab and don't marinate the other. Then apply the exact same rub and cook the same way. Let your taste buds tell you if there's a difference. Or don't and we can keep talking theory and philosophy and knocking methodology rather than doing side by side taste tests.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSMcdowell:
Just by having a control does not make it an effective test. You need blind tasting by several people and then use the results. Tim, please do not take offense to this, but for the fact that you liked the point you were trying to prove doesn't verify much. Either someone else should prepare and label the food, or you should not be part of it. Again, not trying to offend anyone here. I love this forum for the fact topics don't get into rude posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean Scott, right? Let's keep Tim out of this one
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