HH Brisket-Diagnosis Request


 
Brian,

Glad it turned out well for you. How long did it take to drop from 375 to 300 and then 300 to 220 ?

When I read this post this morning on my phone I burst out laughing when you said that the fork must be too sharp, let me find the dullest thing I can. I have doubted myself similarly before.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSMcdowell:
How long did it take to drop from 375 to 300 and then 300 to 220 ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was just a matter of a few minutes. Honestly I sepnt the majority of the 4.5 hr cook outside tending to the fire. There was a little wind, nothing major maybe steady 10 mph. Was that the problem?
 
Brian, did you feel the lid? Try the hands on method for testing the temp. Sounds crazy but after awhile you can feel the right temp by putting your hands(briefly
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) on the sides of the lid. It's not exact but ,hey, what is in smoking
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I may have misunderstood the temp, I thought I read it was supposed to be at the lid which I took to mean the vent because that's near where the WSM thermometer is mounted. Someone mentioned taking the temp at the grate which I'm sure was much higher. I'll get the hang of this thing yet.
 
Brian,

I would not suggest temping at grate. I know some people do and swear by it, but if you put a 14 lb piece of cold meat near a probe, it is going to give you false readings. This is why I temp at the vent which is no where near cold or hot meat or the fire underneath.

So back to your issue at hand. You stated you got to 375 right away. If you were not using a thermocouple probe, then the probe is probably rated up to 392 degrees as most thermistor probes are. You possible could have fried the probe. I did the same thing when I had a 400+ degree spike when glazing some ribs on my new 22 on a wireless probe. The bad part for me is that it was the last of 4 Nu Temp probes (Other 3 died for several reasons) and now Nu Temp is pretty much out of business and I have 3 wireless probe sensors that are useless.

Once my probe was fried it reading 50 degrees lower than my deep fry thermometer I always use in the vent. I was only using the wireless to keep track as I was upstairs cooking some beans during the cook and didn’t want to run downstairs every 20 minutes. This is the reason I use a deep fry thermo, if you have a spike it won’t be affected since it goes to 600 degrees. I also test my thermos every other cook or if something seems out of whack. It only takes a few minutes to boil water and check the thermo rather than mess up your cook.

The easiest way to test is to boiling water test and check the boiling water elevation calculator for what temperature it should read (Would be under 212 depending on elevation, it’s 210 in Atlanta). Chris has a link on the main TVWB site for these test.

Let us know how it works out, I am sure someone else can thing of other reasons.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSMcdowell:
Brian,

The easiest way to test is to boiling water test and check the boiling water elevation calculator for what temperature it should read (Would be under 212 depending on elevation, it’s 210 in Atlanta). Chris has a link on the main TVWB site for these test.

Let us know how it works out, I am sure someone else can thing of other reasons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The temp reading I was getting was within approx 10 degrees of the WSM therm, which I checked witht he water boil method. The wsm therm was off by 10 degrees. And they agreed throughout the whole cook.

I'm thinking more and more the culprit must have been the 10 mph winds.

I just remembered something else. doh When I put the brisket on it was bigger than the grate and I had some trouble fitting it on then getting the lid on. When the temp was up to 375 I noticed the lid was sitting partialy on the brisket. It was when I put the lid on thight that temps really started falling. hmmm
 
Brian, that observation fits with the possibility that by cracking (offsetting) the lid a bit you could increase air flow get higher temps.

I've smoked in much more than 10 mph winds and, although there is an effect, that's NOT what caused your problem. But to help with wind, you can put up some kind of shield (search on the TVWB) and also close the lower vent that faces the wind.

You mentioned having a thermometer in the vent. Could that have reduced air flow enough to keep the temps down? Don't know, just asking.

Rich
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was when I put the lid on thight that temps really started falling. hmmm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Then it was likely a draft issue. I just crack the door at the bottom (possible with an 18 WSM, apparently not possible with a 22) and control the draft that way. Still, I'm not quite sure of your total time. Loks like 4.5-5hours? If so, the bulk of your cook occurred at higher temps irrespective of what the therm said. Or was it longer?

I don't temp at the grate ever.

A Mav probe in the vent won't affect draft.
 
Hmmm, so don't temp at the grate? Interesting. That's where I've been temping because when I first came on the board I saw folks with the temp gauge rammed through a potato sitting on the grate. The attachment that comes with the Mav seems designed to fit on the grate.

And Kevin, is your reasoning for not temping on the grate the same as what JS said, about the meat affecting the reading?

If I am to temp at the vent, how do you suggest attaching/suspending the "probe"?

Thanks!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was when I put the lid on thight that temps really started falling. hmmm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Then it was likely a draft issue. I just crack the door at the bottom (possible with an 18 WSM, apparently not possible with a 22) and control the draft that way. Still, I'm not quite sure of your total time. Loks like 4.5-5hours? If so, the bulk of your cook occurred at higher temps irrespective of what the therm said. Or was it longer?

I don't temp at the grate ever.

A Mav probe in the vent won't affect draft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I had the door propped open, that didn't seem to help. By the end I was so desperate that I took took the door off all together. As for the total cook time, at around 2 hrs exactly the meat internal temp was 170 so I followed the directions and pulled it off and put it in an aluminum pan anf foiled it tightly so no moisture could escape. and cooked that way for 2.5 hrs. The only time during the whole cook that the temps were at or above the 330 range was the frist 5 minutes. For the remainder of the 4.5 hrs they ranged from a low 220 to a high of around 265. There were a few times it got up to 280 but it would drop right back down. And one other time I had it up to 310 for about 10 minutes. But for the most part ( 4hrs) I'd say it was around 220 - 265. Honestly I was amazed that it was done, like I said in another post I was getting ready to run to the store for some hamburg to cook up for supper when I checked the brisket for tenderness. That was at almost exactly 4.5 hrs and it was done to perfection.
 
A brisket is not going to cook in 4.5 hours at those temps. So something is amiss there, temp-reading-wise.

Tim-- Yes, I don't temp at the grate because I don't want to deal with it: the probe can be affected by placement too close to cold meat and by placement too close to the edge near the draft. I also don't really like dealing with probe wires inside the cooker/ I just stick a silicone-plugged therm in one vent hole most of the time. If I need to monitor cooker temps from afar(not something I usually bother with unless doing bacon or the like) I'll use a Mav probe in a vent hole.

One can certainly temp at the grate if one prefers. I don't see any need to, don't like dealing with the possible issues, and find it much easier to work off the lid vent temp, so that's what I do.
 
I really have no idea how it could cook in 4.5 hours at those temps.

Did you get a packer or flat and what was the thickness & weight ? You might have mentioned that, but don't see it anywhere.
 
I'm really at a loss here. It cooked fully, I have pictures in the photo gallery thread. I've been eating it the past 2 days, it's cooked. Yes JSM, it was a full packer weighed 14 lbs. I removed the point and am gonna make burnt ends tonight.

I guess the only possible answer is that somehow I am getting a wrong temp reading from both the maverick and the WSM therm? I'm not gonna clutter this thread up anymore. Thanks for all the suggestions.
 
Kevin-could you give an example of a silicone-plugged therm? Sorry, but it is not something I am familiar with.

Since you mentioned your distaste for wires inside the cooker, I must ask: do you not leave a probe inside the meat at all times?

I have the Mav and have been keeping one inside the meat, one on the grate via the attachment they provide upon purchase.

Brian-I have the 18.5" wsm and have used the Minion Method twice in the last month or so; once for HH brisket, once for two 4lb chucks for PSB. Anyhow, both times, with a full ring plus maybe 30 lit, I had to work at it to keep it from getting too high. For the brisket, I had two closed and one at 25% or even less to keep it slightly under 350. For the chuck, I had all three closed the majority of the time to keep it at 260 or so. I'm not sure what temp it would have been with the door open and all vents open, but my guess is that it would be very high. And, while I'm in San Diego, this was on a rather cold evening this past Saturday for the chuck.

Just mentioning that as a point of reference.

Thanks
 
I'm wondering if your center might be a bit out-of-round. No way I could close 3 vents and keep 260 or 2 with one at 25% at be over 300 - probably not anywhere near it. (I Minion all cooks.)

I use this therm in a vent.

I have a Mav. At the times I need to monitor remotely I use it. I dangle the cooker probe in a vent hole. I almost never use the meat probe - well, not for barbecued anything because I don't temp at all. I use it only for things like bacon or sausage. For things (like chicken) that need to hit a temp for safety, or for beef roasts, say, that I'm cooking to medium-rare or whatever I use a Thermapen.
 
Follow up. Last night I wanted to cook up the point so I made burnt ends. As usual I emptied the ash and what do I find? The back half was wet!? The charcoal was dry when it went in and was lit before I assembled the cooker. If fat drippings hit the coals I'd assume it would burn but I can't come up with another source for what appeared to be wet charcoal and ash in the back half of the cooker.

Anyway, I fired up 3/4 of a ring and 3/4 of a lit chimney with 3 pieces of pecan for smoke, do I always need to say minion method? Got up to 280 pretty fast and stayed there, I figured here we go again. I was in a hurry so I put the burnt ends on, hooked up the Maverick and went in and had a couple of beers. After about half hour the temps started rising and they kept rising and rising. I actually had to go out and shut the vents.
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So I guess the reason why I couldn't get the heat up for the brisket was a mysterious moisture problem, but I still have no idea where it came from.
 
The fat from the brisket could run down the sides, which would not have hit the hot coals and burned up. When I put 4 butts on my 18 I had the same issue. Wet ash wouldn't have to do with the temp problems though.

Glad to hear you seem to be getting to temp now. Only way to clear your mind of this is to cook another one!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSMcdowell:
The fat from the brisket could run down the sides, which would not have hit the hot coals and burned up. When I put 4 butts on my 18 I had the same issue. Wet ash wouldn't have to do with the temp problems though.

Glad to hear you seem to be getting to temp now. Only way to clear your mind of this is to cook another one! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only wet ash but wet partialy burnt charcoal. Only the front half of the ring was fully burnt.
 
Brian, I can't remember whether you used water and did you also cover with a layer of foil? Or water and lined the water pan with foil?

Wet ashes/coals sound like water not grease. If the temp is high, the water will boil vigorously. Steam can condense and creep under the covering (or lining) and drip down into the charcoal and ash.

Rich
 
Kevin- thank you for the link to your vent thermometer-which seems to basically be a simple upgrade of what comes with the WSM-and for your feedback on temperature.

Question: what do you mean by "your center might be out-of-round"?

Now I'm second-guessing my memory, and wondering if having the Mav cooking probe on the grate was throwing me off, but I am almost positive that I had the vents as described above. I will say that it took the chucks, at 260 cooking temp(according to Mav on cooking grate) from 9pm to 3am to get to only 160 (never reached my 165 target) before I covered. I was expecting 3 hours, so maybe my temp was way off?

Anyway, I'm trying it again and writing down temps and vent opening percentages to be sure.
 
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