HH Brisket-Diagnosis Request


 
I've had really good success with low and slow briskets, but this thread is a great read! Thank you all for your contributions -- I'll take what I've learned here right to my smoker.

So if I do a chuck roast, would you have the same recommendations if I'm after pulled beef BBQ? (The particular one in my freezer is one big lump about 4 - 5 lbs.)

Rich
 
If doing a chuck, sure, you can follow the same flow: Foil at ~165 internal; take it to tender.
 
Great! Thanks.

Have you ever tried doing a med rare chuck? I saw a pic in another forum and the guy responded that it was tender, but I don't know...

Rich
 
Well, 'chuck' is too generic a term. A couple cuts from the chuck fair quite well cooked to med-rare. In that case foil is not needed. Chuck top blade (which I cooked last night) I cook to med-rare as a matter of course. (It's the cut flat iron steaks come from). Chuck eye is another. Most other chuck cuts do not do as well.
 
Thanks a lot, Kevin. One thing I really need to learn a lot more about is the different cuts of meat. Mostly what I've found are very "broad" generic names (like "chuck") or charts that may show lots of names for the cuts but say nothing about their characteristics. Admittedly, I've only looked around some -- just need to get into some nitty-gritty investigation.

Rich
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mac McClure:
Rich,
Try here
This might help too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<blush> Right there almost in front of me and I can't find it! TVWB does it again! And the Guide to Beef Roasts is especially helpful as a good starter. Thanks tremendously Mac.

Rich
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can guarantee you 1 thing. I've cooked 3 times as many briskets in the past 3 years, as brisket sandwiches you've eaten in the past 10!

The "hot and fast" method works, especially if you like "firm" briskets. But unless you REALLY know your pit and how much fuel-source it takes to archive that temp, and for how long that fuel-source maintains that temp, GOOD LUCK WITH ALL THAT! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Above is the answer I get on anoher board when i was discussing the HH method. I really don't want to waste a brisket especially since I am driving an hour each way to pick the dang thing up. This is really only my 4th cook, ribs and 2 chickens thrown in the garbage, over cooked the ribs and under cooked the chickens. Two butts that came out prett good even if it did taste like ham. Then last weekend 2 more spread eagle/ butterflied chicken that came out ok. I guess what I'm getting at is maybe I should try a few more cooks before trying the brisket, I'm afraid I may be attempting something I'm not ready for.
 
B brant,

the post you copied in is the exact reason why I pretty much only come to this forum. It sounds like people think their way or opinion is the only one.

You have to pay attention on high heat cooks. But when you are starting out smoking are you ever really not paying attention? I am not sure what he meant by "firm" because tender is tender.

If you feel comfortable with the advice you have received on here then go for it. People on this forum are not going to give you bad advise. The only way to learn is to try.

I have failed miserably on all three of my low and slow briskets. Tough... Dry... You name it. But from what I have learned on here makes me feel comfortable trying a high heat briskets.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the post you copied in is the exact reason why I pretty much only come to this forum. It sounds like people think their way or opinion is the only one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hear, hear. It's a snotty response - and I mean that in its full childish connotation.

I'm wondering, with Josh, what does 'firm' brisket mean - like, not falling apart? Well, yes, then. I ain't cookin' pot roast. That's what I'm looking for. And achieve. Which is the same as when I used to low/slow them.

I say just go for it. Learning happens by doing.

Last night's kettle-cooked, HH brisket. (I served it on homemade hand-cut noodles cooked with cabbage and onions.)



Tonight, leftovers, on garlic mashed, with roasted Brussels sprouts, red grapes and shallot. The sauce was the same as last night, one made from dried sour cherries, dried baby pineapple, a bit of tomato, etc.



Opened tonight with a salad of whole, cored sliced Honeycrisp apple, each slice interlayered with a smidge of Vermont extra-sharp cheddar, with spinach chiffonade and a maple-pear vinegar-almond oil vinaigrette.

 
JOsh, I was nervous the first time I did a HH brisket but I soon learned it was a "no brainer". I cook the meat unfoiled as high as I can get the temp of the WSM. When the temp of the meat hits between 160-170 Foil. DON'T BOTHER WITH MEAT TEMPS AFTER FOILING. I wrap it tight and leave the crease of the fold on top so it's easier to unwrap when checking the meat for softness.After foiling, check every half hour or so till its tender. I like to pull the meat off before it gets too soft and let it finished wrapped in a cooler. Save them thar juices. Great stuff for adding to stews, hamburgers,meatloaf,etc. I freeze bags of the clarified juices to use later.What I do now is,when I foil, I put the meat(foiled) in a crushed down turkey roasting pan in order to save the juices.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paul h:
JOsh, I was nervous the first time I did a HH brisket but I soon learned it was a "no brainer". I cook the meat unfoiled as high as I can get the temp of the WSM. When the temp of the meat hits between 160-170 Foil. DON'T BOTHER WITH MEAT TEMPS AFTER FOILING. I wrap it tight and leave the crease of the fold on top so it's easier to unwrap when checking the meat for softness.After foiling, check every half hour or so till its tender. I like to pull the meat off before it gets too soft and let it finished wrapped in a cooler. Save them thar juices. Great stuff for adding to stews, hamburgers,meatloaf,etc. I freeze bags of the clarified juices to use later.What I do now is,when I foil, I put the meat(foiled) in a crushed down turkey roasting pan in order to save the juices. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're saying to wrap it tight when foiling yet most others say not tight to allow room for the juices. You say to use a turkey pan underneath it to collet the juices. Don't the juices contain rendered fat that would help keep the meat moist? Don't you want to keep the juices with the meat as long as possible?
 
I think it's a matter of interpretation, B Brant. Assume they're all right. So "wrap tight" means foil surrounding the meat and the SEAMS tight so vapor doesn't escape. And using the pan is because if you unwrap without a pan under you are likely to lose those juices you want -- the pan is to catch them and make it easy to empty with foil of juices without spilling.

Rich
 
Not to hijack the thread, but have to ask about that vinaigrette Kevin. Is the pear pureed into it? And looks like there's some coarse mustard there too?
 
i just don't get why hh brisket is such a hard thing to do. i'm one of those "keep it simple" folk. i cook hh (275-350) until i get a int temp of 196 and then start probing. i no longer baste, foil or anything else. sometimes i like it a bit tougher and pull around 200. or i go past the soft probe point to get shredded brisket. the over cooked parts are chopped up and usually used for bbq spaghetti. at all times the meat is moist and the way i like it.
give it a try. no matter what though, if you get the results you like the way you do it then thats the way for you.
 
Brian, the reason I use the pan is when I use to take the brisket out I would lose some of the juices into the drip pan. I would have to use a turkey baster to remove some of the juices before I could even move the meat off the smoker. This way I contain all the juices and yes some of the fat is in the juices but once it cools you scrape that part off before freezing.. No, I don't tent my foil. I suppose you could but I've never done it. Lots of techniques in doing the HH cook. As George C said in his post, he doesn't even foil. All that matters is the meat comes out right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian B (Muncy):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paul h:
JOsh, I was nervous the first time I did a HH brisket but I soon learned it was a "no brainer". I cook the meat unfoiled as high as I can get the temp of the WSM. When the temp of the meat hits between 160-170 Foil. DON'T BOTHER WITH MEAT TEMPS AFTER FOILING. I wrap it tight and leave the crease of the fold on top so it's easier to unwrap when checking the meat for softness.After foiling, check every half hour or so till its tender. I like to pull the meat off before it gets too soft and let it finished wrapped in a cooler. Save them thar juices. Great stuff for adding to stews, hamburgers,meatloaf,etc. I freeze bags of the clarified juices to use later.What I do now is,when I foil, I put the meat(foiled) in a crushed down turkey roasting pan in order to save the juices. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're saying to wrap it tight when foiling yet most others say not tight to allow room for the juices. You say to use a turkey pan underneath it to collet the juices. Don't the juices contain rendered fat that would help keep the meat moist? Don't you want to keep the juices with the meat as long as possible? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Rich is correct. For me, I crimp the foil tightly so vapor doesn't escape. I like a little room - not much - around the sides of the brisket, and some headroom above. No doubt, using foil is trickier than using a pan and one needs to be more careful because of the juices. But I don't care for foil pans. Those can work though, obviously, as many use them.

george is right: HH briskets aren't hard to do. I like even doneness and rather high temps so foiling, for me, is a must - and it also makes the cook very predictable without fuss.

Ray- No, I used pear vinegar. It would be too sweet, imo, using puréed pear or pear juice. Other fruit vinegars would work; I went with the pear because it is lightly colored. The bit of maple syrup in it along with a bit of coarse-grained Dijon doesn't darker the finish appreciably so the the apple's color is well maintained.

It was roughly 2 tablespoons of pear vin, a couple teaspoons of maple syrup, a teaspoon of Dijon, a pinch of salt, and a little white pepper. A tablespoon or a bit more of almond oil (others would work) and a good whisk; done. Core the apple all the way through with a corer, slice thinly, then intersperse a little finely grated cheddar and a few drops of dressing between the slices. Plate, drizzle some dressing in the center of the apple and about the plate, garnish and serve.
 
OK I did this this weekend, didn't use the paste and used my own favorite rub. Filled the ring with Kingsford blue and put a full chimney of lit. Had the door opened temps went up fast at 375 I closed the door and put the meat on this was 9:00 am. Then the temps dropped fast. Got down to 300 then all the way down to 220. All vents were wide open, tried propping the door open, nothing, couldn't get above 265. I took the door off got up to 275. Poked the charcoal added more charcoal. Nothing was getting the temps up. When the internal got to 170, after 2 hrs I followed instructions and foiled it and stuck it back on. The temps ranged 220 to 265 for the most part although I did get it up to 310 for about 10 minutes. About 1:30 I told my wife I was going to go to the store for some hamburg because there was no way this was gonna be edible, figured it was gonna be undercooked and take 8 more hrs or so. Anyway before I went to the store I took a sharp fork and probed it for tenderness and it went right in. I thought "well that was too sharp and it must be misleading" So I looked in the drawer for the dullest thing in there and got a butter knife and got the same result. WOW! Pulled it off refoiled it with a cup and a half of the juices then wrapped it in a towel. Then finished dinner consisting of hasselback patatos and blue cheese mac and cheese. Two hrs got the meat out sliced up some for the wife and pulled some for myself for a sandwich. It was delicious, very moist, nice smokey flavor(used pecan, ran out of apple) and nice smoke ring. Pleasantly suprised, can't imagine cooking these for 10 - 12 hrs. I'm still kinda miffed about the temps and not being able to get them up to where I wanted them. I was using the Maverick just inside the top vent fot my readings. All the old ash was emptied before I started the cook as usual and none of the vents were blocked. Seems odd. Anyway I'll post some pics tomorrow. Thanks for the great instructions.
 
Brian, if you can put a probe at grate level, you'll find the temps were probably higher than you realized from the vent temp. (Run a single probe through a potato to hold it up off the grate.) But as you found out, it's not terrible for the cook -- I think that especially the foiling will help rescue any concerns.

But like you, I get frustrated when at times I just don't seem to have complete control of the temp or can't sustain high temps. A new cooker may have some control issues (smoke and grease build up make them more stable). Ash build up on the coals are also an issue. Others probably will have suggestions (though like you, what more can be done if the vents are wide and the door open? Oh yeah, crack the lid.)

Just keep at it. Have no fear. Experience is a great aid and, as said, it can't get much worse on your nerves and the meat still came out fine.
icon_smile.gif


Rich
 
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