HH Brisket-Diagnosis Request


 
Tim L.

Tim L.

TVWBB Pro
Greetings gents. Did my first brisket (HH or otherwise) for "The Big Game" yesterday. I have a very bbq inept customer base, so they all loved it (some tasty mac & cheese and yummy cornbread helped), but I know in my heart it just wasn't right. Too tough. But there's some debate between me and my sous chef (bro n law) whether or not it was over done or under done. I would appreciate some guidance on this question so I can do better next time.

Here are the facts. Nothing but the facts:

-Followed GrillinFools recipe http://grillinfools.com/2011/01/21/high-heat-brisket/

-One 5lb trimmed brisket from Costco, looked almost identical to Scott's with maybe a slightly smaller fat cap in some areas

-covered in Grey Poupon & Sweet Hot Mustard, wrapped in foil, into fridge for 2 days

-Yesterday, removed from foil maybe an hour before it went on WSM. Covered generously in Wild Willy's and some Montreal Steak Seasoning.

-Placed brisket into aluminum pan, into which it barely fit

-Filled WSM charcoal grate to the rim, placed 3 chunks apple 2 chunks oak in, slightly buried.

-Lit and added maybe 50 coals

-Let the smoker marinate itself for maybe 10 minutes, mainly bc it was smoking like a 5 alarm fire

-added brisket in pan

-Cooker never got above 347. Was mainly around 335 or so. Sometimes as low as 310.

-On at 10, mopped at 11 (white vinegar, beer, garlic salt, brown sugar, pepper flakes, black pepper). Mopped every 45 minutes or so.

-At 2, brisket was up to 170. More mop, covered pan in foil

-At 330 it was 200 degrees. This is my first time cooking any piece of meat of this size, and my first time using the probe/tenderness test, and it seemed basically tender to me

-Wrapped in foil, rested until 415

Sliced. No bark to speak of (due to mopping and covering I infer), not much juice coming out. Not horribly dry, but not as juicy as I'd like and nowhere near as tender as it should be.

So, was it overcooked, undercooked, or wrong in some other manner?

Thanks guys! I hear brisket can be tricky but I'm not giving up hope!

Ps- sorry for the lack of pics. I was running around trying to do the mac and cheese, cornbread, watch the game, watch kids, etc.
 
Yes, and it was a lot more simple with brisket than tri tip because the grainse are all running in one direction the entire length of the piece.

One other thing, and not sure if this is normal or not, but the brisket shrank like a mother. Went from barely fitting to only taking up maybe 2/3+.

Thanks Scott
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tim L.:
Yes, and it was a lot more simple with brisket than tri tip because the grainse are all running in one direction the entire length of the piece.

One other thing, and not sure if this is normal or not, but the brisket shrank like a mother. Went from barely fitting to only taking up maybe 2/3+.

Thanks Scott </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a little weird, but the same thing happened to my dad yesterday. He bought the whole thing and cut it into two briskets. We ate one of them, and it was outstanding. We didn't have enough people to eat the other one since the third Grillin Fool showed up with two smoked pork shoulders stuffed with sausage. I'll have the write up on that one in a couple week's.

The one we didn't eat shrank up like a mother. I have a hunk of it in my freezer to make chili out of.

Shrinkage is from the fat melting out. Maybe you lost all the fat? Maybe you got a bad cut? Maybe it was a crappy piece of meat to start with.

How thin did you slice it?
 
Seems like it was undercooked to me. Hard to say.

A couple things:

If doing a flat, foil at 160 or so. If the flat is thick and well-marbled, 165. No higher.

Do not temp the brisket after foiling. Temps don't mean much anyway but they definitely don't on a HH cook with foil. Temps can easily hit 190, 200 or more 10 minutes after foiling. Other times not. Doesn't matter. Temp tells you nothing. You need to check for tender with a probe.

I don't temp even at the beginning. I smoke for 2.5 hours then foil. If you want to temp at the beginning fine. But don't bother after foiling.

A few other things that don't have much to do with overdone or underdone but:

The mustard/rub thing 2 days in advance isn't getting you anywhere so feel free to skip it.

For better smokering development move the brisket from the fridge to the smoker - don't let it sit on the counter; Minion the start and load it in at the outset.

Mopping isn't getting you anywhere to speak of. If you want those flavors either include them in the rub or add when foiling.
 
Scott- I sliced it a little bit thicker than traditional brisket slices, mainly due to knife quality.

Kevin- I foiled at 170, so broke that rule/advice. You've made a convert out of me on the temp/probe question. I probed to test for doneness, but I guess I'm not clear on what I'm looking for. To use butter as an example, is it supposed to be like inserting into room temp/soft butter?

Thanks for the other guidance. I'll give this another shot incorporating your advice once I get a better feel for the tenderness question. I'm all for learning by doing but would hate to repeat the same mistake twice without at least trying a different approach.

My guess was also that it was undercooked, btw, even though no one agreed with me.

Thanks!
 
I have to completely disagree with Kevin on a couple of points. Two days in a vinegar based mustard will do nothing? Vinegar is a natural tenderizer. Big believer in the mustard marinade.

Second, the mop does nothing? I completely disagree with that too. If the fat cap is up, the mop does little or nothing as the sauce will not penetrate the fat, but with the fat cap down, the mop adds a lot of flavor to the meat. I've made the recipe many times and know there is a difference over non mopped. The fact that the mop sauce was taken from a Raichlen recipe should say something about what the mop does for the meat.

And I'm not even going to get into the temperature being immaterial point.

Just MHO.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kevin- I foiled at 170, so broke that rule/advice. You've made a convert out of me on the temp/probe question. I probed to test for doneness, but I guess I'm not clear on what I'm looking for. To use butter as an example, is it supposed to be like inserting into room temp/soft butter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, probe sooner than later at first. That gives you a reference point. When tender, the probe will go in virtually effortlessly. You might feel the slightest resistance from meat fibers but they should easily part for the probe.

If you can do a packer next. I don't know what you were working with but retail flats can be thin and/or overtrimmed. If flats are it, foil, as noted, at 160 if thin or too trimmed, 165 (or lower) if thick.

I think that when new to learning probe tender, packers work better, but don't let it stop you if packers aren't available.
 
Scott--

I did not say mustard does nothing. Opinion: What little it does, does not seem to me to be worth the trouble. Food science: The vinegar in prepared mustard will denature proteins (tenderize), however it will only work, over time, on the first few millimeters of the meat, that's it, just like any marinade.

'Mopping isn't getting you anywhere to speak of' is what I said. Food science: Mopping, if the mop is water-based, can slow cooking; if fat-based it can speed cooking. Either can add flavor to the surface - if the flavors are concentrated or the mop is applied often enough - but it will not 'penetrate', 'soak in' or anything of the sort, save for the first few millimeters.

Opinion: If there are flavors you want on the surface there are better ways of getting them there. If there are flavors you want in the interior either inject them or make a paint for the slices.

I'd be surprised if Raichlen claimed otherwise, but it would not be the first time that an author either didn't know or didn't understand the science. Just see nearly any Paul Kirk piece.

Food science: Internal temp does not cause tenderness. Time does. A particular temp might correlate with tender but it's only that, a correlation. Heat plus sufficient time relative to the heat and the structure of the meat and its mass cause tenderness.

In a typical low/slow cook, internal temp can be used to point to when one might first check for tenderness. Or some specific temp might be targeted as a point to remove the meat for wrapping and resting, allowing residual cooking - one hopes - to carry the meat to tender. (But why just hope?) Again, any particular internal temp neither causes nor means tender.

With foiled, HH cooks using internal temp for anything at all is far more problematic. Food science: Foiling increases cooking efficiency quickly. Once foiled, moisture is trapped. Trapped steam surrounding the meat along with any exuded liquids transfers heat much more efficiently. This in turn can cause internal temps to rise often rather quickly (sometimes very quickly, depending on several factors). But these temps are immaterial. The signify only the temp, not the tenderness.

Opinion: Skip temping entirely on HH cooks. If you're used to focusing on temps all the time previously, the temps meat can hit during a foiled HH cook can lead you to pull the meat before it is in fact tender.

My focus on the science involved is neither to be pedantic nor condescending - just helpful. Not everyone is interested in any of the science, but those that are, or those that glom onto just enough of the basics to get a foundational understanding, find that it makes cooking more enjoyable because they better understand the dynamics involved; there are fewer questions or concerns, less frustration.

Cooking is an art and a science. Understanding the science helps the art - and makes one a better cook.
 
Thanks Kevin. My initial hope was to use a packer but I waited until "last minute" and all I found (in front of me at Costco when I stared at the meat selection) was a 5lb heavily trimmed flat. I will definitely try for a packer next time. Hopefully it fits on the 18" WSM.

I agree with you on the probing sooner than later suggestion. If I would have done that I would have known whether it WAS tender and I missed it (well, I would have pulled it) or if it never got there. So, better to try it sooner than later.

Also, should have foiled at 160, not 170.

Thanks sir
 
Interesting discussion. I was a consultant (sous-chef sounds better) on a friend's cook yesterday - I'll update my "brisket cooking quickly" thread shortly.

A couple of points and questions on this discussion. We had a packer from a nice meat market, and the fat on the thing was amazing. I had read that there will be alot of fat, but wasn't expecting just how much "alot" really is on a 12lb hunk of beef. I've seen flats in stores, and I can see how that would make a world of difference, especially if "fat = flavor" is true.

Kevin, you mention that the mustard rub and mopping are not worth the time. Since most recipes I've seen suggest these two activities, what IS worth the time for a brisket? I'm not being combative, I really want to know your thoughts. That doesn't always come through on message boards designed around opinionated topics . . . like BBQ.

Follow-up question that I don't quite understand and I think Tim is asking about as well, and has been touched on: if you don't go by temp but by probe tenderness . . . what are my guidelines? I understand something like "don't just start hacking into it once the thermometer says 195" but there's got to be some sort of ball-park, right? Take it off the grill as soon as it hits 200, leave in foil in cooler for 60 minutes then begin checking doneness?

Cheers,

Bryan
 
Tim--

My pleasure.

Yeah, seek a packer. With thin or highly trimmed flats you're just about required to add some liquid to the foil to jumpstart the dynamic. Not something I like doing.

You can fit packers in an 18. That's what I have and have gone up to 18-pounders. My preference is 11-13 but I don't have many to choose from in Fla. Length more than weight is the issue but you need only to jam the ends between the grate handles and bow the packer up in the middle. (Putting a piece of foil under the end of the flat helps deflect heat away from the portion in the direct heat flow up the side.)

I don't know if you've seen these old posts, one here and another here. You might find them helpful. See the Q&A in the threads as well.

My approach is pretty formulaic. The brisket sizes can vary but:

I don't trim much, if any - occasionally some of the fat knob between point and flat at the side, that's it.

I Minion the start with ~25 lit. While the lit gets going I rub the brisket and off to the cooker it goes when I dump the lit and assemble. Wood is small chunks (I chop fist-sized chunks into 5-6 pieces and use 10-12. The go on the unlit before the lit gets scattered evenly (or so) across the top.

I cook fat side down.

I use foil, not pans, because I don't like buying pans and I like being able to control the space at the sides and above the brisket.

I keep my fuel door permanently flipped, knob on bottom, and crack the door to get temps up where I need them.I adjust temps with the door.

I don't temp the meat at all.

I temp at the lid for cooker temps.

What varies:

I often do dry-over-paste rubs but not always. The rubs are different every time.

I use whatever fuel is at hand for the unlit - quality lump, WG briquettes, comp K, blue K, whatever. The wood type varies. The lit is whatever briquettes I have around.

I don't care if temps vary as long as they're >335. I prefer ~350 but if it's 360 or 370, fine. If still rising I'll close the door some or all the way but, as I don't hang around the cooker, whatever happens happens.

I foil around the 2.5-hour mark, give or take 15 or 20 minutes. If the come-up was slower or faster than 'normal' I might decide based on that, but mostly I just work it into whatever flow I'm on. After foiling temps are usually ~375, give or take. I don't really care. I like >350 after foiling.

I check for done about 1:15 or so after foiling. Sometimes slightly sooner if temps were high. This gives me my reference. The briskets will be done 10-20 or so thereafter. Irrespective of size, all have come in at 4 hours total cook time, give or take 10 min max.

I rest 20-30 min, some juices remaining in the foil; some of the rest of the juices I turn into a paint and some go into the sauce I'm making.



That's what I do. The links will show more details but they follow the same approach. YMMV, but not likely by much.

Now find you a packer!
icon_smile.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'd be surprised if Raichlen claimed otherwise, but it would not be the first time that an author either didn't know or didn't understand the science. Just see nearly any Paul Kirk piece. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

icon_biggrin.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My focus on the science involved is neither to be pedantic nor condescending - just helpful. Not everyone is interested in any of the science, but those that are, or those that glom onto just enough of the basics to get a foundational understanding, find that it makes cooking more enjoyable because they better understand the dynamics involved; there are fewer questions or concerns, less frustration. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm, for me knowing more always leads to more questions...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BryanSW:

Kevin, you mention that the mustard rub and mopping are not worth the time. Since most recipes I've seen suggest these two activities, what IS worth the time for a brisket? I'm not being combative, I really want to know your thoughts. That doesn't always come through on message boards designed around opinionated topics . . . like BBQ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I would not infer that you were being combative but I appreciate the qualifier. I also appreciate the question.

It's not worth the time to me. Others might feel differently. As noted upthread, the upshot of the second activity (mopping for flavor) is easier to do - and easier to be more focused and/or specific in other ways. As for the first activity (the mustard thing) - well, unless you're doing it to get rubbing out of the way earlier, or so that you'll have a thick-ish paste on the meat that when you get ready to cook you can add more rub to, I see no merit in the activity.

If recipes or the accompanying narrative makes claims for these activities along the lines of 'tenderizing the meat', rub flavors 'penetrating', mops 'adding moisture', etc., their authors, I'm afraid, don't know what they're talking about. Getting a book (or books) published or winning the Jack or Royal doesn't mean the author or cook understand the first thing about cooking and flavor dynamics - and judging by how much wrong information is stated as fact by some of these very people, some who have been Q'ing for decades, many don't. (The apparent dearth of copy editors and fact-checkers aside, how anyone could cook that long, let alone write books, without questioning their own assumptions astounds me.)

Mopping/basting for flavor can have its place (that's another discussion). When I suggest someone not do it, it's mostly because (especially for newer cooks) it adds an unneeded element/step/that only adds unnecessarily to the process. For new cooks, better to get the fundamentals down first; try adding the not-necessary-but-possibly-cool elements later, then see what you think. Again, since mopping is not at all required for tenderness one needn't bother. For adding flavor there are other, quicker, more easily controlled ways to do this, though nothing wrong with using a well made mop. But I'd wait to think about flavor additions till after successful cooks are the norm. That's what's worth the time.

Mopping for slowing/speeding cooks is rarely useful in an easy-to-temp-control indirect cooker like a WSM, so that's another discussion.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Follow-up question that I don't quite understand and I think Tim is asking about as well, and has been touched on: if you don't go by temp but by probe tenderness . . . what are my guidelines? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>For low/slow or moderate cooks you can certainly go by temp to tell you when to first check for tender if you wish. It's convenient. Other than the odd Prime or Wagyu packer, I've not cooked briskets low/slow in quite some time. I much prefer the consistency from cook-to-cook (see the links in the above post) that HH affords, and the consistency within the meat itself, end-to-end. For HH the guideline to check for doneness is time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I understand something like "don't just start hacking into it once the thermometer says 195" but there's got to be some sort of ball-park, right? Take it off the grill as soon as it hits 200, leave in foil in cooler for 60 minutes then begin checking doneness? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> For low/slow I suggest mid- or upper-180s for the reference point. Again, for HH, time. No need to poke all over (don't bother checking the point at all). Pick a spot in the center of that flat, probe once to get the feel, continue cooking. If quite resistant to the probe there's no need to check again soon - for low/slows 30-40 min later, for HH maybe 20. If not so resistant check sooner. Doesn't hurt. When one learns the feel of the differences between the checkpoints, and hits the Eureka moment of probe tender, all of this becomes second nature.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">hmmm, for me knowing more always leads to more questions... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm. Having sort of 'watched' your cooks over the time you've been a member it seems to me that the 'more questions' that knowing more has engendered have been those necessary to expand your horizons (just look at how broad and deep your cooking has become) and hone in more fully on the details of your endeavors.
 
Pretty much. Butts - especially when one probes the fattiest muscles - can feel like brisket point, which does feel like butter. The flat can feel this way too, especially if nicely thick. With leaner cuts one can get more of a sense of the muscle fibers but it should be just that, a sense. When tender there shouldn't be resistance to speak of.

All bets are off with thin, often overtrimmed flats. Imo, they are scarcely suitable for smoking in the first place. Their structure - really, their lack of structure - doesn't support low/slow cooking much at all, and only supports HH cooking marginally better. Yet, what we often see with new cooks, who've often read enough on websites to be sufficiently intimidated by brisket, is that they purchase small-and-thin because they mistakenly think that will make it easier and/or they'd like to avoid the expense of messing up a larger, more expensive piece of meat. The reverse is true.

Of course, in some areas, packers or thick, substantial flats can be difficult to find. Better then to forgo brisket cooks till one locates something suitable. Determining 'done' on a thin flat that's been Q'd is more difficult. Unfortunately, luck becomes more operative.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it seems to me that the 'more questions' that knowing more has engendered have been those necessary to expand your horizons (just look at how broad and deep your cooking has become) and hone in more fully on the details of your endeavors. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly my point! never said questions were bad
icon_wink.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">'Mopping isn't getting you anywhere to speak of' is what I said. Food science: Mopping, if the mop is water-based, can slow cooking; if fat-based it can speed cooking. Either can add flavor to the surface - if the flavors are concentrated or the mop is applied often enough - but it will not 'penetrate', 'soak in' or anything of the sort, save for the first few millimeters.

Opinion: If there are flavors you want on the surface there are better ways of getting them there. If there are flavors you want in the interior either inject them or make a paint for the slices. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After reading several different opinions (Kevin's included) on the whole mopping & spraying thing, I decided to attempt to eliminate spraying apple juice on my ribs. I am sure it has it's benefit, but I am going for ease, simplicity, and consistent.

By removing this step I have eliminated a few variables. First, not opening my smoker several extra times. Second, amount & brand used. Third, concentration & time applied. Add all of those together and it is a decent amount of time savings and the cook time will be more consistent.

I increased the turbo in my rub by 20% and I now have a great crust on them that in my mind was originally being assisted by the apple juice sugars. Was it really? Who knows. I like what I have now though.

Not to get off subject but I hope to do the same things on butts, but that is another post for a later time.
 
I have yet to do a HH brisket. I usually cook mine at 275 so maybe totally different.

When I first started smokin brisket I cooked to temp even though the consensus here was to check for tender. I didn't understand why that was important until my first 6 or so briskets were either tough or dry. I think I got lucky on 1 being great. Finally I started checking for tender and what a difference. It took me several to get it perfected but major difference.

What I have found out over the years. Brisket is done when it is tender. When the connective tissue is broken down to that certain point. If you check for tender and check temp once it is tender. You will find that one brisket may be tender at 180 and the next may be done at 195. Once the brisket is tender it starts to dry out, and it doesn't seem like it takes long. My guess that on high heat this is even more true. That window may seem small to me since I don't foil at 165 as some do. What you are left with is this rather small window that the brisket is optimal tender and juicy.

My process is to smoke and get past the long roughly 165 degree plateau. Basicly 8-10 hours in depending on size of my brisket. I check temp to see if it is over 175. If it is, I don't turn the therm on again. After that I just use it to probe for tenderness roughly every 45 minutes. I don't know if there is even a plateau for HH cooks so that may not apply.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

 

Back
Top