RalphTrimble
TVWBB Diamond Member
Both 245C for ABS and 210-220C for PLA seem quite a bit high from my experience, I generally run 15-20C lower than that on my machine.
General 3D Printing Thread
- Thread starter Bryan Mayland
- Start date
Andy Snider
TVWBB Fan
I don't use PLA, but corners warping with ABS is from too hot extrusion. The layer cools too fast & warps, usually curls up or pulls in (making a rounded corner & concave vertically, more likely with too hot bed.) I run Hatchbox ABS at 215 / 90. at 220, I get a bit of oozing, <218, no oozing. 215 seems to stick well, so I run it that low. If I want stronger layer-layer bond, I'll crank it up a bit.
JET was the worst ABS I've used, FWIW. I still have some since it's the only brown & purple I found, but I hate printing with it. 230/100 works OK, but it still weak, sticks like crap & sometimes just plain won't print.
Guy Barton
TVWBB Member
It all depends on the filament, hotend, print bed surface combination. I have also noticed the higher quality filaments I have used tend to like higher temps. For example, the Ultimachine PLA I run most, likes 220 - 225 on my machine with a E3D V6 while it likes 215 on the machine with a Aleph Objects Hexagon hot end. Both are running a 0.4 mm nozzle. Some of the less expensive filament like esun will drip out at that temp and are much happier around 200...
I will say I have had much better luck printing ABS on a PEI surface at 245 / 110 C than I ever did printing ABS on a PET surface at 225 / 100.
Here is an example of an ABS part I printed last night. It is pretty thin walled and would have had splitting problems with my older printer configurations.
I've been doing ABS at 110 bed / 230 extruder with great results (for me). I'm sure as I print more, I'll begin to get pickier like you guys and notice the subtle tuning aspects of printing. Really looking forward to it.
Actually having a problem with ABS sticking too well. ABS slurry works wonders on a kapton coated bed, busted up my borosillicate by accident (doh!) trying to get a part off a completely cool bed. I'll have to figure out the better temp for it to release.
Going to try and print a HM case for fun to compare it to one I've received from forum members, to try and measure how I'm doing.
Actually having a problem with ABS sticking too well. ABS slurry works wonders on a kapton coated bed, busted up my borosillicate by accident (doh!) trying to get a part off a completely cool bed. I'll have to figure out the better temp for it to release.
Going to try and print a HM case for fun to compare it to one I've received from forum members, to try and measure how I'm doing.
Bryan Mayland
TVWBB Hall of Fame
:-D Glad so many people have found that to be useful!
I just put a Ultem sheet on my new printer last night and I wanted to warn others that it does not apply like a piece of kapton (where you spray it with soapy water and then squeegee out the water). All the water got trapped under the sheet and trying to squeeze it out was really tough and a lot of adhesive came out with it. I'm sure the surface isn't 100% flat now and I am also pretty sure I can't get it off if I wanted to. Even 3M says in their FAQ that it doesn't come off easily. Is there a solvent that removes the 468MP acrylic adhesive? I can't toss the whole thing because it is an $80 silicone heater on a $40 MIC-6 aluminum sheet so it would be pretty costly.
I just put a Ultem sheet on my new printer last night and I wanted to warn others that it does not apply like a piece of kapton (where you spray it with soapy water and then squeegee out the water). All the water got trapped under the sheet and trying to squeeze it out was really tough and a lot of adhesive came out with it. I'm sure the surface isn't 100% flat now and I am also pretty sure I can't get it off if I wanted to. Even 3M says in their FAQ that it doesn't come off easily. Is there a solvent that removes the 468MP acrylic adhesive? I can't toss the whole thing because it is an $80 silicone heater on a $40 MIC-6 aluminum sheet so it would be pretty costly.
You have no idea how useful!
OpenSCAD is intuitive for me, because it seems to just be math and yet another programming/scripting language, whatever you want to call it. When you have a working example to reference, it really speeds up understanding of a new language. Basic shapes were quick to master but having to figure out things like servo arm cutouts would have taken me a while... having your examples really helped.
On the solvent.. haven't tried it, but this stuff is what I'll try first to get anything gooey removed. http://3mcollision.com/products/adh...m-general-purpose-adhesive-cleaner-08984.html
A guy on reprap forums said he used this stuff in combination with aluminum build plate and loves it. http://www.buildtak.com/
Personally I've been using a super wide kapton tape and applying to borosillicate. Works great with a tiny bit of ABS juice if I need. Easy to do, just like tinting a window. I probably haven't had a lot of startup issues thanks to all of the info in this thread and the insane amount of reading I did before assembly.
Guy Barton
TVWBB Member
There is some information about removing the PEI sheet here. https://forum.lulzbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2771&p=16908#p16908
Jas E
TVWBB Super Fan
I'm waiting on the arrival of an aluminum heatbed so that I have a solid base to clamp my PEI sheet too. I tried it with the standard PCB heatbed, and it just wasn't rigid enough. The middle of the bed ended up being 3/4" higher than the outside edges because the PEI warps badly as it gets hotter.
Bryan Mayland
TVWBB Hall of Fame
Yup I had a similar problem with my printer when I tried to just use spray adhesive to hold it down. By the time it got hot the center bulged up and pulled the whole thing off.
I am walking the fine line with my PEI sheet now where some parts of the same flat piece do not stick enough (they warp up) and some stick too much (even when fully cooled the plastic discolors when being pried up):
It's really touchy about getting the temperature and height just right to make it not cosmetically damage the print. The problem being that my print bed is 300x300 so getting that accuracy across the entire surface is just not possible. I built a Differential IR Height Sensor but the aluminum plate reflects too much through the PEI sheet which scatters the IR LED light and makes it saturate the receiver so it doesn't work properly. I don't want to get one of those giant inductive sensors, this seemed like such a cool idea.
Anyone else get this sort of ultra-adhesion with PEI?
Andy Snider
TVWBB Fan
$17.24/kg delivered. ABS/PLA/PETG/HIPS CODE: OCTO20
http://www.makergeeks.com/maker-filament.html
I bought some last time they had 20% off, but haven't got to use it yet. Looks OK, I would bet its somewhere between the hatchbox I normally use & the ExcelFil I just finished. Not a great color selection, but it's cheap.
Bryan
Canned air upside down - freeze the hell out of it & it will jump right off. Also good for impatience. I've not tested this on PEI, I print bare glass w/ABS juice brushed on.
Aren't you a homebrewer? Time to tap another CO2 line.....
http://www.makergeeks.com/maker-filament.html
I bought some last time they had 20% off, but haven't got to use it yet. Looks OK, I would bet its somewhere between the hatchbox I normally use & the ExcelFil I just finished. Not a great color selection, but it's cheap.
Bryan
Canned air upside down - freeze the hell out of it & it will jump right off. Also good for impatience. I've not tested this on PEI, I print bare glass w/ABS juice brushed on.
Aren't you a homebrewer? Time to tap another CO2 line.....
Bryan Mayland
TVWBB Hall of Fame
I'll have to give this a try. I also heard someone say put some rubbing alcohol in the space between the skirt and and the part and it will get sucked underneath so I'll have to try that as well. I'd hate to have to add another step and consumable to my process though. My old printer, when I go to get the part off it is already released and just sitting on the bed and I never realized how convenient that is. I tried the ABS juice on this printer and it worked great but the juice came up stick to the print, so that was out.
The kegerator is in the other room
Guy Barton
TVWBB Member
Parts don't like coming off PEI when it is at room temp. What bed temp are you printing and attempting part removal at? For ABS, I print with the bed at 110C and remove parts at 60C. That seems to work best. PLA bed temps are 60C and 50C respectively. It might be worth your time to set your bed height to a level that gets the surface finish you want and see how they remove at those temps.
Andy Snider
TVWBB Fan
I've had ABS parts literally jump off the bed using the canned air, but yeah its expensive. I usually just let it cool completely & twist or scrape if it needs a little help.
I have a sealable jar w/the abs juice & a paint brush, every print I brush some on. As far as consumable, it's a helluva lot cheaper than PEI....
It sticks to the print, but if you use natural ABS, there's no color. (wife works for a company that does injection molding, I had her grab a baggie of pellets that will last a lifetime)
If you're going to Acetone treat the part, it has no effect. If not, you can rub the part on a piece of sandpaper and get ride of the shine.
Tried the maker geeks filament last night, it's damn good for $20/kg. Had to up the heat from Hatchbox, but curled less (printer doesn't have a layer fan - YET) & surface finish is better. I actually prefer it over excelfil ($50/kg) in limited testing.
I have a sealable jar w/the abs juice & a paint brush, every print I brush some on. As far as consumable, it's a helluva lot cheaper than PEI....
It sticks to the print, but if you use natural ABS, there's no color. (wife works for a company that does injection molding, I had her grab a baggie of pellets that will last a lifetime)
If you're going to Acetone treat the part, it has no effect. If not, you can rub the part on a piece of sandpaper and get ride of the shine.
Tried the maker geeks filament last night, it's damn good for $20/kg. Had to up the heat from Hatchbox, but curled less (printer doesn't have a layer fan - YET) & surface finish is better. I actually prefer it over excelfil ($50/kg) in limited testing.
Bryan Mayland
TVWBB Hall of Fame
Oh believe me I've tried removing them at every temperature between 110C and room temp, and also my obsessive bed height adjustment is unmatched! I have a dial gauge mount that I use to adjust the screws, a differential IR proximity sensor for 36 point grid calibration, and also hover around watching the first layer and note inconsistencies in extrusion width and attempt to correlate them with nozzle pressure changes with my nozzle pressure sensor.
Ha, I think I might spend as much time trying to improve that printer as I do on HeaterMeter recently! I am going to try throwing a box over the top of it to make a little enclosure, so I can lower the bed temp and still not get warping and see if it comes off any easier that way.
Ha, I think I might spend as much time trying to improve that printer as I do on HeaterMeter recently! I am going to try throwing a box over the top of it to make a little enclosure, so I can lower the bed temp and still not get warping and see if it comes off any easier that way.
Guy Barton
TVWBB Member
I am lazy so, I will just ask instead of reading the entire thread... How thick is your PEI and where did you source it? Is it really glossy or does it have a mat finish?
I ask because a year ago I ordered some PEI from Amazon that was very glossy and 1/16 inch thick. It was a horrible failure. Nothing I did worked. The plastic would not stick or it would stick so hard I could not remove it. Flip a coin print to print. I ended up throwing it away and going back to PET which works OK for most things.
I have two printers that currently have factory PEI surfaces from Lulzbot. IIRC the PEI is 0.040 inches thick and has a pre-applied adhesive so, it isn't a two step process. The PEI on those two printers is FANTASTIC. It is not picky about the starting Z height. I can run PLA really squished on the first layer or really loose. It always sticks and is removable. I print less ABS but it works similarly well.
So, what I think might be happening is that there are different types or grades of PEI, some of which work well for print surfaces and some, not so much.
It might be worth it to you to spend a little more money and buy a sheet from Lulzbot and give it a shot, if it is big enough for your bed.
Here's the link. https://www.lulzbot.com/products/lulzbot-taz-pei-sheet
Your sanity is worth the 50 bucks!
I ask because a year ago I ordered some PEI from Amazon that was very glossy and 1/16 inch thick. It was a horrible failure. Nothing I did worked. The plastic would not stick or it would stick so hard I could not remove it. Flip a coin print to print. I ended up throwing it away and going back to PET which works OK for most things.
I have two printers that currently have factory PEI surfaces from Lulzbot. IIRC the PEI is 0.040 inches thick and has a pre-applied adhesive so, it isn't a two step process. The PEI on those two printers is FANTASTIC. It is not picky about the starting Z height. I can run PLA really squished on the first layer or really loose. It always sticks and is removable. I print less ABS but it works similarly well.
So, what I think might be happening is that there are different types or grades of PEI, some of which work well for print surfaces and some, not so much.
It might be worth it to you to spend a little more money and buy a sheet from Lulzbot and give it a shot, if it is big enough for your bed.
Here's the link. https://www.lulzbot.com/products/lulzbot-taz-pei-sheet
Your sanity is worth the 50 bucks!
Guy Barton
TVWBB Member
Andy Snider
TVWBB Fan
When I bought the XYZ Da Vinci, I decided that either it was going to print on the glass bed or it was going back to Amazon. It turned out to really be a non-issue EXCEPT if I left the door/window open & the door to the printer open & a cold draft hit the print. Glue stick worked ok, ABS juice works great, and who doesn't have scrap ABS around?
I don't auto-level, I don't check bed level or re-level unless there's a problem that I suspect is due to the bed getting bounced out of level. I brush the juice on the glass at about 40-50C (Room temp- it turns a milky color (I think it absorbs humidity): too hot- it boils & you get a bumpy surface which still works ok).
FWIW, I think my printer is female - about once a month it just won't print no matter what I do - doesn't' extrude, or if it does, it doesn't stick to the bed. I think it's humidity related as it's usually after I haven't used it in a while. Put filament in container w/dessicant overnight, heat the bed up to 50C for an hour or so & it usually fixes itself. I do that after I pull the extruder, clean it, re-level the bed, etc trying to fix it 'fast'. It has been in my basement for the last month or so (it was in my office prior to the bossman showing up for the first time in 2 years....) & it didn't have a problem firing back up after a week of inactivity. My basement struggles to get above 40%RH.
I don't auto-level, I don't check bed level or re-level unless there's a problem that I suspect is due to the bed getting bounced out of level. I brush the juice on the glass at about 40-50C (Room temp- it turns a milky color (I think it absorbs humidity): too hot- it boils & you get a bumpy surface which still works ok).
FWIW, I think my printer is female - about once a month it just won't print no matter what I do - doesn't' extrude, or if it does, it doesn't stick to the bed. I think it's humidity related as it's usually after I haven't used it in a while. Put filament in container w/dessicant overnight, heat the bed up to 50C for an hour or so & it usually fixes itself. I do that after I pull the extruder, clean it, re-level the bed, etc trying to fix it 'fast'. It has been in my basement for the last month or so (it was in my office prior to the bossman showing up for the first time in 2 years....) & it didn't have a problem firing back up after a week of inactivity. My basement struggles to get above 40%RH.
RalphTrimble
TVWBB Diamond Member
I've used Ultem that was thick with no adhesive back and it worked great. The next Ultem sheet I got was thinner and would pull up from the bed during printing, which made it pretty much useless on some prints that want to warp. Adhesive back would have made the thinner sheet usable I guess... but my question is, how do you remove the sheet once it is stuck down with adhesive? If the surface gets scratched or damaged in any way you're gonna want to replace it, has anyone pulled up one of these adhesive backed PEI sheets to replace it?
Generally my parts held strong on ULTEM and would pop loose when cooled, but on occasion when they would stick down like they were welded I could pull the ULTEM sheet off the bed and flex it a bit and the part would pop off. I know the thicker ULTEM was more expensive, but it cost less than the adhesive backed PEI I see there at LulzBot if I recall properly. So if I were looking for a bed material currently I would be torn between the thinner adhesive backed stuff and just getting a thicker sheet of Ultem. Since the thicker ULTEM was cheaper, easier to remove stuck parts from and easier to replace I would probably stick with the regular ULTEM.
Generally my parts held strong on ULTEM and would pop loose when cooled, but on occasion when they would stick down like they were welded I could pull the ULTEM sheet off the bed and flex it a bit and the part would pop off. I know the thicker ULTEM was more expensive, but it cost less than the adhesive backed PEI I see there at LulzBot if I recall properly. So if I were looking for a bed material currently I would be torn between the thinner adhesive backed stuff and just getting a thicker sheet of Ultem. Since the thicker ULTEM was cheaper, easier to remove stuck parts from and easier to replace I would probably stick with the regular ULTEM.