Cooking over un-lit charcoal?


 
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Chris G.

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There seems to be some debate...a friendly debate
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...over cooking over un-lit charcoal.

Here is a blurb I scanned from a book called “Chemicals in your home” by Dr. Grange Hestead. The book stated he was a professor, and then director of the Wright State University Chemical Engineering college, and the publish date was 1996...

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"Most modern charcoal briquettes don’t have any petroleum products in them. The most commonly used briquette is Kingsford, and it too does not contain any petroleum products, but what it does have is sodium nitrate.

Sodium nitrate (nitric acid sodium salt) is used as a preservative in some pink foods, such as canned salmon. While it is known to cause cancer in rats, and that the young, elderly, and pregnant women should stay away from it, the FDA has not made any restrictions pertaining to it. It also contains trace heavy metals and chlorides.

It is also used in explosives and charcoal to incite a uniform burn. When burnt, sodium nitrate releases nitric acid gasses. This is the “petroleum” odor you smell when the briquettes are first being lit. The gas itself is poisonous, however considered safe in an open outdoor environment.

Sodium nitrate has a melt point of 308 degrees Celsius (586.4 Fahrenheit) were it becomes inert, and that is why charcoal manufactures recommend reaching this temperature before cooking any food over it.

While the health risks of consuming food that has been exposed to nitric acid gasses has never been researched, it’s agreed in the chemical engineering community, that it is not recommended.

Additionally, it has been confirmed that nitric acid gasses can impart a “bitter” taste to most foods.

It should also be noted that unprocessed “natural” charcoal does not contain sodium nitrate."
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Now I know lots of you cook over un-lit charcoal, and I sure dont see you guys dropping over dead, but I just thought I would share this passage with you all.

Take care, and happy smokin'!
 
I'm pretty health conscious and I would really like to know if cooking over unlit can impart toxic chemicals to the food I'm eating. I would quit doing it. While your post certainly seems like a convincing argument not cook over unlit, I'd like to point out a couple of things.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris G.: ...the health risks of consuming food that has been exposed to nitric acid gasses has never been researched... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> would suggest that statements for OR against this type of cooking are unproven theories, a matter of opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris G.: ... it’s agreed in the chemical engineering community, that it is not recommended. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Engineers are the ONLY profession to make public safety the number one rule in their professional Code of Ethics . I suggest that given this code of ethics, because the substance is known to be toxic and research has not been done to prove cooking over it is safe, 'not recommended' is the only recommendation Chemical Engineers would make.

My Kinsgford bag has a Safety Tips section. If it was hazardous not to wait for the briquettes to ash over, wouldn't there be an item in the Safety Tips section?
 
This has been discussed many times before. See this for a good thread where a couple of folks who are renowned for winning with Kingsford and the WSM give their opinions.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shawn W:
I'm pretty health conscious and I would really like to know if cooking over unlit can impart toxic chemicals to the food I'm eating. I would quit doing it. While your post certainly seems like a convincing argument not cook over unlit, I'd like to point out a couple of things.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris G.: ...the health risks of consuming food that has been exposed to nitric acid gasses has never been researched... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> would suggest that statements for OR against this type of cooking are unproven theories, a matter of opinion.

Correct, I agree, but simply because the research has NOT ben done, doesnt mean there isnt a risk.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris G.: ... it’s agreed in the chemical engineering community, that it is not recommended. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Engineers are the ONLY profession to make public safety the number one rule in their professional http://www.apegga.com/aboutapegga/ACT/code.htm. I suggest that given this code of ethics, because the substance is known to be toxic and research has not been done to prove cooking over it is safe, 'not recommended' is the only recommendation Chemical Engineers would make.

And who better to "recommend" against it?
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My Kinsgford bag has a Safety Tips section. If it was hazardous not to wait for the briquettes to ash over, wouldn't there be an item in the Safety Tips section? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Kingsford also states to allow their briquettes to be "70% ash covered before use".

Maybe Kingsford knows its product is safe at that stage?

I dont know either...
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Never mind Minion Method for Kingsford briquettes, the growing concern I have is that I shouldn't use unnatural fuel, especially in the enclosed, not fully ventilated space of the WSM period. Might have to go with Natural Lump, and I can still use the Minion Method. I guess the debate will rage on until conclusive research is done.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Ferguson:
for a good thread where a couple of folks who are renowned for winning... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Academically speaking Tom, how does winning competitions have anything to do with the safety issue? 'is it safe (not harmfull) to use Kingsford briquettes in WSM using Minion method?' Carbon monoxide, found in vehicle and natural gas furnace exhaust is odorless, tasteless and colourless but kills folks every year. Agree, winning competitions provides valid input against the position 'Minion Method imparts a bad taste' though.

Also, the letter from Kingsford in that post was very informative, listing ingrediants, providing a brief history of charcoal and manufacturing methods but doesn't address the safety issue being discussed here either.
 
Here is my opinion about safety.....

The US has an overly aggressive and very strict FDA. If there was the least bit of concern about health and briquettes, the FDA would simply outlaw it.
 
I'm not so confident in our government agencies as you Stogie, but I'm partially anti-establishment.....They have yet to outlaw tobacco and alcohol (and TVWB certainly needs a 'Highly Addictive' warning
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). Do they regulate cooking methods for private citizens?

Most people will agree smoking and second hand smoke kills people. Some people smoke and drink their entire long lives. Some people get lung cancer from second hand smoke apparently after a couple of years work in a bar.

I think if people started dropping like flies then for sure the watchdog & regulatory agencies would intervene .... but if it's subtle, it may take years to be uncovered if ever.
 
I'm no health nut by a long shot...but still in all it would seem to me to be prudent to use lump instead of briquettes, given the evidence. I've never used lump coal, and understand that it has the potential to burn hotter, but that just means to use less of it, seems to me. Also seems to me that I'd read here that someone uses full fired briquettes to start the lump when using the standard or minion method, maybe thats the compromise position, I'll have to give it a shot and see what happens.

Tony
 
I encourage everyone to immediately convert over and begin using lump. That way maybe the demand for Kingsford will go down, the price will go even lower and I can buy more !

IMO there is not a sufficient basis for concern. But if it bothers you, quite using it.

Paul
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Most modern charcoal briquettes don’t have any petroleum products in them. The most commonly used briquette is Kingsford, and it too does not contain any petroleum products, but what it does have is sodium nitrate.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So let me get this right, we should not use Kingsford cause it contains an agent that you find in ham, bacon, sausage, fish and brine recipes. That's the reason?
Jim
 
True Jim that those products do contain sodium nitrate, but the arguement here is that one of the combustion by-products of sodium nitrate is nitric acid gas. Certainly a few of these molecules are going to find there way to whatever your smokin'...especially in an encapsulated environment such as the WSM. Of course the debate centers around whether or not there would be any long term effects for consumption of condensed acids of nitrogen. I think what scares most folks is just the idea of consuming acid...but we do it all the time! In fact one of the strongest acids in our bodies reside in our tear ducts...not to mention the acids are produced as a result of the digestive process. I sincerely doubt that the practically immeasureable amount of increased acidity as a result of using charcoal briquettes would cause any undo harm in the long run...given the tiny quantity that we're talking about. But I suppose its ones right to make there own informed decision. Besides...I've been wanting to try out lump coal and this gives me the perfect excuse.
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Tony
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul G.:
I encourage everyone to immediately convert over and begin using lump. That way maybe the demand for Kingsford will go down, the price will go even lower and I can buy more <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Buy a boxcar full...just make sure it doesn't get wet
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul G.:
But if it bothers you, quite using it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> thinking about it. Got 5 dependants eating off that thing up to 5 times per week, plus guests. Someone posted an intersting link to a pro-natural lump site a while back (mostly black)... can't find it, anyone know the site?
 
Tony
You get smokering on your meat?

You understand that every stick of wood or chips is off gassing 100s of chemicals, the list is quite long.

You think lump will cure the problem, inspect what comes out of the bag before burning.

How much BBQ do you eat daily? I know in KC they say "BBQ isn't just breakfast food anymore" but you eat that much?

Eating bread, potatoes, pasta, and rice was causing me more problems than any charcoal I'm using.

I use lump charcoal in a number of cookers but I don't eat off of them everyday either.

Salmon it is recommended that you eat farmed raised max twice a month, wild once a week. Salmon is full of good fats but that good food has it's problems also.

Make the choices that you make you happy,I certainly am.
Jim

PS: Shawn, Like I said it's about choices.
 
I hear ya Jim, I think we're on the same page, just saying it a little differently is all. Like I said, I doubt that a bit of nitric acid is going to be an issue in the long run, especially considering, as you've said, all of the other by-products that we consume on a regular basis. My main point is that its important to be informed, and base ones decisions on the best available information. I doubt that I'd personally give up the MM anytime soon, as it works like a charm, and I'm prone to doing much worse things to my body than anything that would result from the one or 2 Q dinners I might consume each week..(Jack Daniels comes to mind
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) Like the guy said (forgot who..)..."all those health nuts are gonna feel awful silly as they lie on their death beds dying from nothing".
These are the reasons intellegent men discuss things and then do what they were gonna do anyways.
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Tony
 
If I ever push the "Briquette/Lump" or is it "Lump/Briquette" button OR the "Lit/Unlit" button, slap me and send me home without supper.

Ya'll gotta realize that this is the wrong forum to resolve this sort of discussion. Much better suited to camp fire with plenty of adult beverages on hand. Same recipe as solving world problems.
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Jim and Chris,

Personally, I don't understand the confrontational tone of this entire discourse. As for me, I value your input and am glad you participate. Kingsford vs. Lump? Who the f**k cares? Apparently someone does, but it makes no difference to me.

For my part, I drive an automobile that requires petrochemical stuff to run. It is reported to be not only bad for the environment, but has geopolitical ramifications as well. That doesn't stop me from driving. Oh, did I mention my air conditioning? My natural gas furnace? The emissions from my compost heap in the back yard? The residual chemicals from my painting my living room? The chemicals required to manufacture the rubber on my auto tires? The emissions generated from those cute little plastic bags you now get from the grocery store?

Nasty stuff can exist everywhere in this modern society. I really struggle to understand how one can consider charcoal vs. lump a serious issue unless you are just trying to light a fire (a political fire, not one for cooking food).

Lighten up guys. What I want to know is.....

How do you make your smoke taste so good?

Chet
 
Here here, Jim !! High standards is exactly what has attracted me to this site in the first place, and the high level of enthusiasm that those whom espouse these standards had for the WSM that lead me to the same choice.

Tony
 
I forgot that I had this tucked away in an e-mail folder for quite some time. Guess it pertains to this subject:

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From: callingh@excite.com
Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 1:50PM
To: kingsford@casupport.com
Subject: Questions re: unlit charcoal

Hi,

When cooking barbecued foods for extended periods of time (for example, 16 hour beef brisket), is it safe to add more unlit Kingsford charcoal while food is still on the grill? Do the fumes given off as the briquets fire up affect food safety, aroma, taste, etc? I know several people who do this, and am just wondering about any negative affect it might have on the food.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Chris Allingham
San Jose, CA

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From: "Mail, Clorox" <clorox@casupport.com>
To: <consumer.services@clorox.com>, <callingh@excite.com>
Subject: E-Mail Message
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 9:09:00 -0400

Dear Mr. Allingham:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us about KINGSFORD Briquets. We appreciate your interest in our products.

Adding Kingsford briquets will not affect the taste of the food because it does not contain lighter fluid. We would not recommend adding Matchlight briquets or lighter fluid to an existing fire, as the solvent may add a taste to the food as it burns off. I hope that this answers your questions. If I can be of further assistance to you, please contact me again.

Again, thank you for contacting us.

Terry Dittus
Product Specialist

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One additional bit of info I would add to this discussion...

There was a recent barbecuing episode of "Unwrapped" on the Food Network which featured the Kingsford charcoal production process.

You could see that the materials were mixed into a product looking like loose asphalt, which was pressed in molds, released from the mold, and allowed to dry before packaging.

It appeared that the ingredients in the product were homogenous. In other words, it did not appear that "bad stuff" was applied only to the outside of the briquette which burns off at the beginning of the cook. If the ingredients are homogenous, then it would seem that the product is continuously releasing a whole bunch of gases from beginning to end.

Which then begs the question, why does it smell so bad in the beginning but not later? My guess is that once things get really hot, the bad smell is consumed by the heat of the fire. Just my guess.

Regards,
Chris
 
Remind me never to play poker with Chris! Sitting there with Ace up his sleeve all these years just waiting to play trump. hehe...
 
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