Thanks, Steve. I'm doing research on Lynx and DCS grills.
Trying to understand lid-up grilling
- Thread starter M Borner
- Start date
Michael Smotch
TVWBB Fan
Have a Weber summit gasser. Never had temp issues grilling with lid open. rule of thumb if it's thicker than the side profile of your hand, lid closed.
Bob Bailey
TVWBB Guru
Oops! Didn't notice that. Thanks for pointing it out. This is the one I meant to link:
LMichaels
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
This link is the one with side vents. Not good at all
Jim C in Denver
TVWBB All-Star
My original question sill hasn't been answered. Is this just Weber, or are all grills this way?
All GAS grills are this way. Which is why all gas grills come with lids.
Other types of grills (that use different types of heat energy) don't have lids. No lid on a hibachi. No lid on a Santa Maria grill. A Weber kettle is more of a hybrid cooker. It works great without a lid (for certain types of cooking) and great with lid on (for other types of cooking).
Here is the science explanation. There's nothing wrong with your grill -- it is just how gas grills work. The link below explains it in greater detail. Meathead specifically expains lid on vs lid off in a number of different scenarios. Essential reading for any griller.
Understanding the grilling thermodynamics was the key to a vast improvement in my grill/BBQ game. The key to understanding is that this isn't primarily about hi/lo temperature. It is about different types of heat energy.
You can cook with the lid open most easily if your cooker is mostly using radiation (direct over charcoal or using an IR burner) or conduction (hot metal in direct contact with the food -- griddle, cast iron pan). Gas grills cook mostly by the third method -- convection -- which is the flow of hot air. Basically how a kitchen oven cooks.
Each of radiation, conduction and radiation have their pros/cons for different kinds of cooking.
If you are cooking with convection, then by definition you need the air flow to be hot. Opening the lid lets a lot of the hot air to escape. That's why your Weber gasser and your kitchen oven have a lid/door on them. If you open the lid on a convection cooker, all you are doing is making the hot air cooler.
For direct type grilling (i.e. burgers) the lack of radiation or conduction cooking is sub-optimal. If you open the lid on a primary convection cooker, the issue goes from bad to worse. Couple things you can do to improve your gassers performance.
You can get a grill with an IR burner (like Larry has). Mimics the radiation cooking you get over direct charcoal. Or you can add a conduction option. Rick P and I use GrillGrates -- adds more radiation with the rails up and adds LOTS more conduction when using the flat side. [GGs are oft discussed/debated on here. IMO, GGs are awesome sauce for a gas grill.] Or get a griddle or use a cast iron pan. Using any of those methods you'll be able to grill with the lid up since you are switching from convection over to conduction.
Meathead strongly endorses GGs if you don't have an IR burner option for your gas grill.
Think about the classic Weber kettle charcoal technique. Searing (in the front or in the rear) your steak direct over charcoal. That's radiation, which you can do easily with the lid off. Then you move the steak over to the indirect side and put the lid on -- that's convection cooking. An awesome way to cook a steak. Much better result than if you used all radiation or all convection.
All GAS grills are this way. Which is why all gas grills come with lids.
Other types of grills (that use different types of heat energy) don't have lids. No lid on a hibachi. No lid on a Santa Maria grill. A Weber kettle is more of a hybrid cooker. It works great without a lid (for certain types of cooking) and great with lid on (for other types of cooking).
Here is the science explanation. There's nothing wrong with your grill -- it is just how gas grills work. The link below explains it in greater detail. Meathead specifically expains lid on vs lid off in a number of different scenarios. Essential reading for any griller.
Understanding the grilling thermodynamics was the key to a vast improvement in my grill/BBQ game. The key to understanding is that this isn't primarily about hi/lo temperature. It is about different types of heat energy.
You can cook with the lid open most easily if your cooker is mostly using radiation (direct over charcoal or using an IR burner) or conduction (hot metal in direct contact with the food -- griddle, cast iron pan). Gas grills cook mostly by the third method -- convection -- which is the flow of hot air. Basically how a kitchen oven cooks.
Each of radiation, conduction and radiation have their pros/cons for different kinds of cooking.
If you are cooking with convection, then by definition you need the air flow to be hot. Opening the lid lets a lot of the hot air to escape. That's why your Weber gasser and your kitchen oven have a lid/door on them. If you open the lid on a convection cooker, all you are doing is making the hot air cooler.
For direct type grilling (i.e. burgers) the lack of radiation or conduction cooking is sub-optimal. If you open the lid on a primary convection cooker, the issue goes from bad to worse. Couple things you can do to improve your gassers performance.
You can get a grill with an IR burner (like Larry has). Mimics the radiation cooking you get over direct charcoal. Or you can add a conduction option. Rick P and I use GrillGrates -- adds more radiation with the rails up and adds LOTS more conduction when using the flat side. [GGs are oft discussed/debated on here. IMO, GGs are awesome sauce for a gas grill.] Or get a griddle or use a cast iron pan. Using any of those methods you'll be able to grill with the lid up since you are switching from convection over to conduction.
Meathead strongly endorses GGs if you don't have an IR burner option for your gas grill.
Think about the classic Weber kettle charcoal technique. Searing (in the front or in the rear) your steak direct over charcoal. That's radiation, which you can do easily with the lid off. Then you move the steak over to the indirect side and put the lid on -- that's convection cooking. An awesome way to cook a steak. Much better result than if you used all radiation or all convection.
The Thermodynamics of Cooking and How Different Cooking Methods Work
Learn about thermodynamics: the basis of all cooking! Find out how heat transference works by conduction, convection, radiation, induction, and infrared heat in your grill, bbq, and smoker.
amazingribs.com
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LMichaels
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
For the record Jim, my Wolf is not an IR grill. It has IR rotisserie though. It just puts out so much heat literally so much on high you'll get hot air burns if the lid is down and you leave it like that for much more than a few minutes. But, yeah it sucks down so much NG that they've had to replace the bearings in my gas meter 
All kidding aside, yeah I think it's designed for those folks who want to impress their friends with llots of flame and spectacle with the lid up. But, I have also seen it in a commercial environment with no lid at all. I think for home use they just took a commercial grill, stuck a lid on it and a huge price tag
All kidding aside, yeah I think it's designed for those folks who want to impress their friends with llots of flame and spectacle with the lid up. But, I have also seen it in a commercial environment with no lid at all. I think for home use they just took a commercial grill, stuck a lid on it and a huge price tagJim C in Denver
TVWBB All-Star
Gotcha.
Many high end gas grills today come with some kind of an additional IR burner. Which is designed to compensate for the limitations of the primarily convection cooking you get with a gas grill.
Since the heat energy is being delivered via light waves (rather than hot air convection) you can brown/sear/broil very effectively with no lid when using IR. And because IR is a very fast/strong cooker, you can very quickly go from nice yummy seared brown into charred black burned.
So keeping the lid off, keeping an eye on your steak, and flipping very frequently (i.e. just keep flipping or human rotisserie method) makes a lot of sense when cooking primarily with IR -- which is IR burner or direct over charcoal. Same goes for conduction/hot metal. Which browns even better/faster than IR.
One thing JKF does nicely is to allow the top side of the steak to cool off and slow the cook down a bit. So uncovered and flipping is helpful is to keep the powerful IR or conduction cooking from going overboard to burned. Anyone who has ever cooked on a hibachi knows/does this intutively -- you have tons of IR coming from below and very close to the food. So you don't want/need a lid and you'll do a lot of flipping -- to keep the food from getting charred.
Many high end gas grills today come with some kind of an additional IR burner. Which is designed to compensate for the limitations of the primarily convection cooking you get with a gas grill.
Since the heat energy is being delivered via light waves (rather than hot air convection) you can brown/sear/broil very effectively with no lid when using IR. And because IR is a very fast/strong cooker, you can very quickly go from nice yummy seared brown into charred black burned.
So keeping the lid off, keeping an eye on your steak, and flipping very frequently (i.e. just keep flipping or human rotisserie method) makes a lot of sense when cooking primarily with IR -- which is IR burner or direct over charcoal. Same goes for conduction/hot metal. Which browns even better/faster than IR.
One thing JKF does nicely is to allow the top side of the steak to cool off and slow the cook down a bit. So uncovered and flipping is helpful is to keep the powerful IR or conduction cooking from going overboard to burned. Anyone who has ever cooked on a hibachi knows/does this intutively -- you have tons of IR coming from below and very close to the food. So you don't want/need a lid and you'll do a lot of flipping -- to keep the food from getting charred.
Joe Anshien
TVWBB Platinum Member
I combine the 2. I use a GG over my IR burner. Sometimes ridge side up, sometimes flat side, depending on what I am cooking. These filets were perfect.
Rich Dahl
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Okay, I'll jump into this discussion and add my thoughts.
My newest grill beside my Camp Chef pellet grill is a 2009 E320 gasser. Cooking burgers is a lid down process with that grill, same with the gen 2000.
When we want nicely grilled anything it's the performer, Jumbo Joe or 22 kettle.
Big difference in the end results. Nice sear, quick cook, it's the way to go.
Yep, I don't like the cleanup of charcoal but it's worth the extra effort.
My newest grill beside my Camp Chef pellet grill is a 2009 E320 gasser. Cooking burgers is a lid down process with that grill, same with the gen 2000.
When we want nicely grilled anything it's the performer, Jumbo Joe or 22 kettle.
Big difference in the end results. Nice sear, quick cook, it's the way to go.
Yep, I don't like the cleanup of charcoal but it's worth the extra effort.
Jim C in Denver
TVWBB All-Star
Pellet grill, like a gasser, are mostly convection cookers. So lid closed.
Charcoal direct is radiation. Perfect for no lid grilling.
Thanks, Jim, for your lengthy reply. I know all this takes time, and I thank you for that. In previous threads it should be clear that I am completely versed in the science and thermodynamics of grilling. Amazing Ribs is a site that I studied over and over during my research. Yes, I understand conductive vs. convective vs. radiant heat, very well. But you can understand that during my research, I came across countless folks saying that they grill burgers and steaks with the lid up. But wait, both grills I've had can't cook with the lid up, so what gives? So now, there must be something wrong with my grill, but both of them? Weber says "no".My original question sill hasn't been answered. Is this just Weber, or are all grills this way?
All GAS grills are this way. Which is why all gas grills come with lids.
Other types of grills (that use different types of heat energy) don't have lids. No lid on a hibachi. No lid on a Santa Maria grill. A Weber kettle is more of a hybrid cooker. It works great without a lid (for certain types of cooking) and great with lid on (for other types of cooking).
Here is the science explanation. There's nothing wrong with your grill -- it is just how gas grills work. The link below explains it in greater detail. Meathead specifically expains lid on vs lid off in a number of different scenarios. Essential reading for any griller.
Understanding the grilling thermodynamics was the key to a vast improvement in my grill/BBQ game. The key to understanding is that this isn't primarily about hi/lo temperature. It is about different types of heat energy.
You can cook with the lid open most easily if your cooker is mostly using radiation (direct over charcoal or using an IR burner) or conduction (hot metal in direct contact with the food -- griddle, cast iron pan). Gas grills cook mostly by the third method -- convection -- which is the flow of hot air. Basically how a kitchen oven cooks.
Each of radiation, conduction and radiation have their pros/cons for different kinds of cooking.
If you are cooking with convection, then by definition you need the air flow to be hot. Opening the lid lets a lot of the hot air to escape. That's why your Weber gasser and your kitchen oven have a lid/door on them. If you open the lid on a convection cooker, all you are doing is making the hot air cooler.
For direct type grilling (i.e. burgers) the lack of radiation or conduction cooking is sub-optimal. If you open the lid on a primary convection cooker, the issue goes from bad to worse. Couple things you can do to improve your gassers performance.
You can get a grill with an IR burner (like Larry has). Mimics the radiation cooking you get over direct charcoal. Or you can add a conduction option. Rick P and I use GrillGrates -- adds more radiation with the rails up and adds LOTS more conduction when using the flat side. [GGs are oft discussed/debated on here. IMO, GGs are awesome sauce for a gas grill.] Or get a griddle or use a cast iron pan. Using any of those methods you'll be able to grill with the lid up since you are switching from convection over to conduction.
Meathead strongly endorses GGs if you don't have an IR burner option for your gas grill.
Think about the classic Weber kettle charcoal technique. Searing (in the front or in the rear) your steak direct over charcoal. That's radiation, which you can do easily with the lid off. Then you move the steak over to the indirect side and put the lid on -- that's convection cooking. An awesome way to cook a steak. Much better result than if you used all radiation or all convection.
The Thermodynamics of Cooking and How Different Cooking Methods Work
Learn about thermodynamics: the basis of all cooking! Find out how heat transference works by conduction, convection, radiation, induction, and infrared heat in your grill, bbq, and smoker.amazingribs.com
I know, there are a lot of lid down enthusiasts, too, but to those that use Weber grills with the lid up, how are you doing it? My GG worked great, but still, in my opinion, the coking surface wasn't hot enough. My Wife and I sous vide a lot and the GG just wouldn't get hot enough for a good sear, always had to close the lid.
Believe me when I tell you, it's me. I am fully aware that I am the problem, my worst enemy. Maybe I just need to reprogram my brain just a bit, but after 30 years of trying and countless hours of research and banging my head against the wall, I cannot grill an amazing burger on my grill with the lid down, it just doesn't work, and I've tried everything.
Those look amazing!
Joe Anshien
TVWBB Platinum Member
How about adding a torch to the mix? The one some of us bought for about $13 a while back sure adds a nice chard flavor and crust to meats.
When I say I've tried everything, I mean EVERYTHING! I've tried every tip and trick in the book. Do you know what does work? No lid.
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LMichaels
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
IDK, you're trying to drive lug nuts with a pair of pliers. Grill Grates are a "crutch" IMO. Keep WAY too much heat inside the firebox. Number 1. 2, you're trying to make a tool do what it's not really designed for. Pretty much everyone here more or less is telling ya the same thing. It'll work just not what you're expecting is all. Find a cheap charcoal grill, get some good lump in it. and cook your burgers. You will be happy again. Stop blaming Weber for the grill doing exactly what it's designed to do.
I appreciate that. As I mentioned earlier, I know the problem is me, I'm not denying that. I appreciate all the responses thus far. I guess, in a way, I was hoping to find others that were experiencing the same things I was experiencing and that they might have some solutions.
DanHoo
TVWBB Olympian
The issue you are fighting can't be solved on a front control E310/S310 grill as the heat output for direct cooking isn't enough.
I posted the table below in another thread comparing BTU per square inch of grills I've owned or cooked on often. The only one I can cook on direct, lid open is the E330 with the left, sear and center on high with a BTU of 114 per Sq In. The E310 has 75 BTU per Sq In and that is not enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
below are the grills that I own ( Genesis 1000, Silver B, E330 ) or often cook on ( E320, E310 )
BTU rating is from the tag on each grill.
Grate square inches is from literature on sales sites and is only the main cooking grate.
| 1998 1000 (side) | 2000 Silver B (side) | 2009 E320 (side) | 2016 E310 (front) | 2016 E330 (front) | |
| square inch | 424 | 424 | 507 | 507 | 507 |
| BTU | 35000 | 36000 | 42000 | 38000 | 48000 |
| BTU/sqInch | 82.5 | 84.9 | 82.8 | 75.0 | 94.7 |
For the E330, the 94.7 number is misleading because it spreads 10K BTU from the sear burner across all square inches.
In terms of direct heat under the grate, the right side grate is 75.0 BTU/SqIn and the left side is 114 BTU/SqIn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Jim C in Denver
TVWBB All-Star
Cooked burgers tonight on a 330 with a sear burner and flat side GGs. Lid open.
It worked ok. No real difference than the result I get with lid down. It just took longer with lid up.
I conclude that gassers generally, and Webers in particular, are designed to cook lid down.
In fact, the core innovation of the entire Weber company is the lid. So a kettle would provide more control as compared to the then common no lid brazier charcoal grill.
If for some reason you have a thing for no lid cooking, go charcoal or ir.
It worked ok. No real difference than the result I get with lid down. It just took longer with lid up.
I conclude that gassers generally, and Webers in particular, are designed to cook lid down.
In fact, the core innovation of the entire Weber company is the lid. So a kettle would provide more control as compared to the then common no lid brazier charcoal grill.
If for some reason you have a thing for no lid cooking, go charcoal or ir.
A couple thoughts on this.
- Although most gassers are designed to cook with the lid closed, all Genesis' since they switched to front mount are also underpowered for their size. The "sidewinder" genesis 3 burners had 42000, BTU's and 507 square inches of primary cooking space (As Dan notes above). The current Weber Genesis 3 burners are 38,000 btu and 513 sq in of primary cooking space. Its a 10% reduction of BTU's and completely unacceptable, current Genesis 3 burners don't stack up to the competition and are not a good grill for the price. It's a complete debasement of the "Genesis" brand name because they were the best grill for the price for decades. Many cheaper grills with poor build quality will give you better BTU's and many grills around the same price will give you more features, better btu's and the same Chineseium build quality that Weber is now know for. The Weber Genesis is now the perfect grill for someone who lives in an upper middle class neighborhood, grills once a month, and wants the Weber brand name. I know this sounds harsh but these things are overpriced garbage so its well deserved. If your spending money on a full sized gas grill it better be over 40k btu's.
-That said on my sidewinder you still have to close the grill some to cook a burger. I get the grill as hot as it goes during preheat, then I open it up and sear the first side for about 2 minutes. After those 2 minutes I close the grill for about 2 minutes then sear the second side. Unless you have a ton of burgers on and are getting flare ups your going to need to finish with the lid closed.
-If you want the charred burgers the OP is talking about you need to be using 80/20 at most and closer to 70/30. Those restaurants you are comparing your burgers to are using a way fattier blend than you - almost guaranteed. If you cover your entire gasser in 70/30 ground beef burgers and it have reasonable BTU's on your gasser, you can definitely turn your back yard into a Burger King.
- Its extremely easy to cook a burger on nearly any charcoal grill without a lid if you set it up properly. But in my opinion an excellent charcoal sear combined with some time indirect make the best burger.
- Although most gassers are designed to cook with the lid closed, all Genesis' since they switched to front mount are also underpowered for their size. The "sidewinder" genesis 3 burners had 42000, BTU's and 507 square inches of primary cooking space (As Dan notes above). The current Weber Genesis 3 burners are 38,000 btu and 513 sq in of primary cooking space. Its a 10% reduction of BTU's and completely unacceptable, current Genesis 3 burners don't stack up to the competition and are not a good grill for the price. It's a complete debasement of the "Genesis" brand name because they were the best grill for the price for decades. Many cheaper grills with poor build quality will give you better BTU's and many grills around the same price will give you more features, better btu's and the same Chineseium build quality that Weber is now know for. The Weber Genesis is now the perfect grill for someone who lives in an upper middle class neighborhood, grills once a month, and wants the Weber brand name. I know this sounds harsh but these things are overpriced garbage so its well deserved. If your spending money on a full sized gas grill it better be over 40k btu's.
-That said on my sidewinder you still have to close the grill some to cook a burger. I get the grill as hot as it goes during preheat, then I open it up and sear the first side for about 2 minutes. After those 2 minutes I close the grill for about 2 minutes then sear the second side. Unless you have a ton of burgers on and are getting flare ups your going to need to finish with the lid closed.
-If you want the charred burgers the OP is talking about you need to be using 80/20 at most and closer to 70/30. Those restaurants you are comparing your burgers to are using a way fattier blend than you - almost guaranteed. If you cover your entire gasser in 70/30 ground beef burgers and it have reasonable BTU's on your gasser, you can definitely turn your back yard into a Burger King.
- Its extremely easy to cook a burger on nearly any charcoal grill without a lid if you set it up properly. But in my opinion an excellent charcoal sear combined with some time indirect make the best burger.