tender chicken skin and Leetha's family's BBQ


 
D

Dave Russell

TVWBB Honor Circle
I've been reading with amazement all the techniques competitors use to get tender or crispy chicken skin.

Having said that, this is what I really want. I want to know how a certain pitmaster in Mississippi ended up with such tender skin on the leg quarters that he smoked for our family reunion a few years back. I remember it vividly. His aunt is one of the most famous pitmasters in South Ms, and left her place to open one in Hattiesburg. Anyway, my aunt picked up a huge 17 lb. brisket and 10 or 20 lbs of leg quarters from Sams and dropped off for him to smoke.

We picked up the meat and carried it all the way to the reunion retreat in a cooler, and while I'd have expected the chicken skin to have become tougher, it just fell apart. There was not much of a rub, just maybe seasoned salt or s and p. I don't know for sure if there was any mopping involved, but no glaze. Any thoughts? It was just plain ole' good, and appeared to be cooked low and slow. The fat was completely rendered out of the skins, but the leg quarters were really tender and juicy.

I just wanted to share what I remembered. It was a good while back, but I'm sure the skin was "bite through". Any thoughts on marination or mop possiblilities to get that skin so tender? BTW, the brisket was great, too.
 
High heat is the way to do it.

You said it yourself - the fat rendered out from under the skin. In a low heat cook not all the fat will render out, and the skin will dry out without cooking, leaving it tough.

In a high heat cook, the fat will boil/render and cook the skin in the process, leaving it tender.

This is why grilled chicken over high indirect heat or medium direct heat with frequent turning (see roadside chicken) comes out with such tender skin.

Good luck in your quest, tender chicken skin is an attainable goal but it's tricky to get perfect.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">See if anything here helps. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, that thread was a trip down memory lane.

here's a quite from me from that thread that made my jaw drop:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'm sure kcbs would be ok with that if you could figure out a way to have a charcoal heated fryer.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been recently contemplating this very idea (but not exactly frying the chicken) and couldn't believe that I joked around about a year ago and now am seriously considering it.

what I saw, read and heard that made me consider hot oil was a couple of things:

1) I read a blog post where a guy confited a whole turkey and finished on a propane grill. He rewarmed the turkey over a pan of the oil (which was being heated by the grill) and poured the hot oil over the turkey to crisp the skin.

2) I heard a team that I respect, crisps there skin first before they cook it. This made sense because certain types of skin (leather or rubber) seem unrecoverable, but once skin's crisp it can only get tender. so get it crisp and you won't have to worry about it for the rest of the cook.

3) we were eating take out wings from a place that serves them really crispy, but since these had been steaming in the take out box, the skin was like tissue paper. this further emphasizes the point that skin needs to be well cooked (crisp) before getting to bite through.
 
I'm gonna see if my cousin can find anything out through his connections down there. I know it sounds crazy, but I remember what I remember, and there was NO crispness or grill marks on this chicken. It simply tasted like smoked leg quarters, but the skin was tender, or unlike any chicken I've ever smoked, especially any that hadn't just come off the pit.

I just started thinking about it since I'm too lazy to get my "smoking drum" out of the shed and set up. The little wsm is SO much less fuss and easier to clean up than the drum, but the drum set-up is cooking direct and gets pretty good results with chicken as you can start low and get really hot at the end by simply taking the lid off. My wife thinks the place looks like "Sanford and son" when I leave it out with my other grills, though.

HMMM...Anyone know how far it is from the top of the charcoal to the top grate on the big WSM? That would be a good excuse to get one if it was far enough to allow for cooking direct like with a drum.
 
Skin does not need to get crisp first - or at all - to get to tender/bite-through. It needs to cook long enough relative to the skin in question, i.e., well-cooked. Cooking time can be shortened if a) a marinade containing acid is used, or b) the chicken is simmered/braised, as in the Jumpin' Jim style, or c) both. Skin can be finished, if desired, direct, or can be started direct (not something I am a fan of), but neither is necessary if one isn't seeking crisp.

Personally, I like flavor-infused buttermilk or yogurt for marinades. Not so much acidity where timing becomes an issue (they can wallow for quite a while); enough to offer benefits though.
 
I fire up the weed burner and give it some direct heat after it comes off the smoker done in minutes nice and crispy., or I toss it on the OTS over a very hot lump fire for 15-20 min
 
I've basted chicken before using Mike Mills chicken mop, which includes vinegar because he feels it, like extra salt, draws the fat out of the skin. I felt it helped, but I wonder if using more salt on the skin and a acidic marinade like Kevin suggests would help. I'm not really after crisp skin....just one that doesn't turn to rubber somewhere between the cooker and the plate, even if the chicken is ready but it's not dinner time yet.

Anybody tried putting on a layer of kosher all over the chicken like Jamie Purvience does?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Skin does not need to get crisp first - or at all - to get to tender/bite-through. It needs to cook long enough relative to the skin in question, i.e., well-cooked. Cooking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe it needs to be crisped first, I just think it might be a possible direction to explore.

I liked the skin I found in the box of take-out chicken wings which had only been fried to crispness. and I wonder if mistakes are made during smoking the skin could become leathery or rubbery and those condition be unrecoverable.

the other direction is the parkay bath which seems a lot like confit. after the butter bath, I'd think the skin would be just begging to be crisped. Besides I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of doing the confit after meat inspection on fri, ice the chicken until turn-in time sat, re-warm and hit with direct to finish.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave Russell:
I've been reading with amazement all the techniques competitors use to get tender or crispy chicken skin.

Having said that, this is what I really want. I want to know how a certain pitmaster in Mississippi ended up with such tender skin on the leg quarters that he smoked for our family reunion a few years back. I remember it vividly. His aunt is one of the most famous pitmasters in South Ms, and left her place to open one in Hattiesburg. Anyway, my aunt picked up a huge 17 lb. brisket and 10 or 20 lbs of leg quarters from Sams and dropped off for him to smoke.

We picked up the meat and carried it all the way to the reunion retreat in a cooler, and while I'd have expected the chicken skin to have become tougher, it just fell apart. There was not much of a rub, just maybe seasoned salt or s and p. I don't know for sure if there was any mopping involved, but no glaze. Any thoughts? It was just plain ole' good, and appeared to be cooked low and slow. The fat was completely rendered out of the skins, but the leg quarters were really tender and juicy.

I just wanted to share what I remembered. It was a good while back, but I'm sure the skin was "bite through". Any thoughts on marination or mop possiblilities to get that skin so tender? BTW, the brisket was great, too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I talked to my cousin, and he remembers the same great smoked leg quarters with tender skin.

The famous bbq restaurant in Hattiesburg, MS. that's named after the family bbq matriarch, Leetha, didn't even let her family use her sauce recipe in Columbia at her old joint. While her sauce recipe would be great, I'd just like to know how she taught them all how to smoke the chicken.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Here is your answer - stripping the skin, scraping the skin, rewrapping, poaching in butter, smoking: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

seems like we got two threads here. I brought up the comp angle, but I think the op was looking more for his caterer's technique which probably wasn't along the lines of the multi-step pickled pig recipe. That recipe is a major PITA for producing 12 thighs, let alone producing enough for a hungry crowd.

both are good questions though and there's good info accumulating here.

Dave, do you remember how the chicken was transported? It could be a case similar to my take-out wing observation, where the chicken was cooked with very high heat and then the skin kind of steamed to tissue paper consistency during the hold.
 
Interesting thread. I think chicken is one of the harder things to smoke, if you're looking for crispy skin. I like pulled chicken with no skin, but I think I'll crisp/grill the chicken first, then smoke next time to see how it works out.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Here is your answer - stripping the skin, scraping the skin, rewrapping, poaching in butter, smoking: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

seems like we got two threads here. I brought up the comp angle, but I think the op was looking more for his caterer's technique which probably wasn't along the lines of the multi-step pickled pig recipe. That recipe is a major PITA for producing 12 thighs, let alone producing enough for a hungry crowd.

both are good questions though and there's good info accumulating here.

Dave, do you remember how the chicken was transported? It could be a case similar to my take-out wing observation, where the chicken was cooked with very high heat and then the skin kind of steamed to tissue paper consistency during the hold. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

J, I don't know. I guess it's possible, but it sure didn't look like it had been grilled any. I know....otherwise how was it tender, huh? They certainly didn't go to the lengths these competitors go to. I really don't understand why thighs have ended up being cooked like they are on the bbq circuit. It seems like some kind of regulation could've stopped the madness and kept the attention on the cooking and not so much manipulation of the skin and all. What does all that have to do with cooking, really?
 
Well, cooking (how and how long) affects the texture. Removing, scraping, and other carrying on seems way over the top to me.

Leg quarters can cook quite a while without overcooking - longer still if the temps are low. And if they are held hot after cooking (or reheated then held hot) this will also keep the skin cooking longer. (It's skin that cooks through well - it thins and loses virtually all the fat under it - that allows for tender, bite-through skin. Marinating can shorten the process, as can braising, but neither are de fact requirements.)

Where in Hattiesburg is the place?
 
Btw, skin can be finished (or started) at high heat - with no grill marks. I do this all the time. Temps are high but the chicken is finished (or reheated) indirect, so no marks.)
 
Kevin, I haven't been down there in a while, and to be honest, I've never been in Leetha's place in Hattiesburg. Hopefully, I'll get to go there this spring for our family reunion Memorial Day weekend. All I know is what I've heard from my cousin and what I saw on a site that reveiwed bbq joints. (one of the best reviews)

A lawyer owns the building and if I'm not mistaken, he came to Leetha with the idea of opening a nice restaurant in Hattiesburg several years ago, as opposed to the "joint" she was cooking in over in Columbia.

The restaurant is on the south side of Hardy St., but I don't remember exactly where. My cousin said that Leetha's family have since closed up shop at her old place in Columbia, because although the family was known for good cooking, nobody could manage money. It's really sad, because they definately have a heritage to share, if you will...and you know Leetha's is not the same without her family helping her. A Lawyer and $$$ and hired outside help smells like lots of compromises to me. I'm reminded of Miller's in San Antonio, where (according to the Legends of Texas Barbecue Cookbook) "Myrtle Miller Johnson ordered that the place be torn down upon her death so that no one could give the family a bad name with inferior barbecue."

To be quite honest, in a few parts of the deep south, most or all of the bbq joints are (still)run by African Americans because of their reputations to have great bbq. They've had the know-how in their families for a long time, and so there's some communities where the bbq business is just left up to them, and nobody can touch 'em....and in case anybody is wondering, Leetha's family charged well over TWICE the $$ for a pound of pulled pork than places up here in middle Tennessee typically do...and they didn't even get to keep Leetha's secret sauce she is known for. I can't remember how much it was, but I was amazed at how much my aunt paid them to smoke the chicken and brisket, and she was the one who bought it in the first place!

Kevin, sorry for the ramblin...and all you wanted to know is where Leetha's was! I just thought I might be able to share a little snapshot of what barbecue is like in the "old south."
 
I know 'old South' barbecue well. I've been to hundreds of places in the south over the years - literally; well over a couple or three thousand nationally. A few actually live up to their reputations; unfortunately very few.

I go through H'burg many times a year. I'll have to check it out.

Some of the whole hog joints in western Tenn can be worth a visit, btw, if you've not been.
 
Ok, back to the skin. Assuming the fat was just cooked out real good by a long time in heat, the obvious queastion is to how not dry out the meat.

Yes, they were holding it hot waiting for us to pick it up I believe. I really think it was cooked low and slow, and would be surprised if there was any hi temps involved, grill marks or not.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
I know 'old South' barbecue well. I've been to hundreds of places in the south over the years - literally; well over a couple or three thousand nationally. A few actually live up to their reputations; unfortunately very few.

I go through H'burg many times a year. I'll have to check it out.

Some of the whole hog joints in western Tenn can be worth a visit, btw, if you've not been. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin, for some reason, I felt sure YOU knew something about old south barbecue!
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I took the opportunity to share for the benefit of all those that think the best barbecue comes from Famous Daves, etc. (no offense to Famous Daves) You know what I mean...
 
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