second "waterless" smoke with spares.(not good)


 
J

Jacob Samarin

TVWBB Member
ok yall i did my second (spare rib) "waterless" smoke on the wsm today.i hate to say it guys but both times i did ribs this way they came out dry.
the first time i only did one rack,so i thought maybe it was the ribs.
today i did 3 racks and they all came out the same.DRY.

now when i used water in the waterpan (instead of the clay pot wrapped inside the pan)i had no problems at all.

at this point i think (at least for myself)when it comes to ribs,ill use water.maybe with a pork but,or brikset it will keep itself moist due to the fat content,but when it comes to ribs,im sticking with the water.

just my .02
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Fair enough! I'd do whatever's working as well!

I personally never use water or a clay pot. I just use an empty foiled pan.

How big were the racks you were smoking? How long did they go for?

Clark
 
High pit temp, cooking too long and/or taking the meat to too high an internal temp causes it to be too dry. All of those are easier to "achieve" when not having the safety net of water. That said, getting to cooking temps faster and less clean-up are good reasons to consider using another heat sink such as the clay pot base.

Use the method you're comfortable with and that method may change as your experience increases - or it may not.

Paul
 
Jacob,
I had similar problems when I first converted to the clay dish mod. (now several years and countless cooks ago). The culprit was, as suggested above, higher temps and over cooking. Several previous threads state that the water does not increase the humidity but is only a source for a heat sink. I suspect that the clay dish does not provide as much thermal mass (some have suggested filling it with sand – never tried that). My solution was to decrease the amount of coals used (duh). Yesterday I did 2 fatties, 4 b/s chicken breasts and a rack of BB ribs in a 4+ hour cook on only about ¼ of a ring with 8 lit coals minion method. Temps were great at ~ 225-240 (top grate level - 20+ more at the vent) range (with a brief spike to 275 when I took off the chicken and fatties), vents were never over 50% (although it was windy here in the mid 60’s). So, the suggestion is to markedly decrease the amount of fuel you use, keep an eye on the temps, test for doneness at least an hour before you think (toothpick worked great for me – they were done after only 3 + 1 foil (next time will only do 30 min foil because they were a little bit too falling off the bone). The easy clean up and no requirement to refill the pan (I once dumped some water on the fire (duh redo)) makes the clay dish mod a no brainer for me. But, as suggested, go with what works for you, however I doubt that it has anything to do with humidity.
 
Sorry, gentleman, but higher pit temps will not cause ribs to be dry--overcooking does or in some cases undercooking. Unless the temps are wildly high >365/375 for an extended period, slightly lower temps if the rub is sugared, higher cooktemps or spikes will not affect the flesh--except to make the cook shorter which needs to be accounted for.

I routinely cook spares at 275, backs at 325 and, if foiling, at higher temps once foiled. Spares in this cook, however, cooked ~325 start to finish, no foil.

David's questions are mine: How long did they cook? --at what temp? --how were they checked for done?
 
i cooked them EXACTLY like i would if i had water in the pan.


the temp never got over 250(which is 225 on the grates).and the first time i went waterless it was the same.

i did them for 5 1/2 hours,like i always do.now i know time is not really a factor."they are done when they are done" but i always go 5 1/2 on all the different smokers i have ever had.but as soon as i went waterless on the wsm,they started drying out.

and to say the water does not effect how moist they are is incorrect in my opinion.the water evaporates,which is why you need to fill the pan back up on long smokes.and when water evaporates,it turns to steam,and the steam rises and goes up to the meat.how could it not help keep it moist?

as said before.with a brisket or butt i think the fat cap would help keep them moist.but i dont think the ribs have enough fat on them to do so.now you guys can smoke your ribs anyway you like.myself,im going back to the water.and with the brinkman water pan i dont think you would have to refill anyway in 5 1/2 hours.

these are spares b.t.w. cut up st. luis style and put on a rib rack.the same way i have been doing them for years.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I personally never use water or a clay pot. I just use an empty foiled pan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too no longer use any heat sink, just go with a foiled empty pan. Never have any "dry" issues. THESE RIBS were done using this method at 225 grate and as you can see were very moist.

I too would ask how long did they cook for and how did you check for done? Also, you mentioned you have produced moist ribs using water, other than water anything else different between the cooks?

EDIT: Had the window open for quite a while prior to hitting "post now." Your answers were posted during this period.
 
Jacob,

With the Clay saucer, my temp at the grate runs hotter than the temp at the lid. Is it possible that you might have been cooking at a higher grate temp than you thought?

In any case, nobody is asking questions to place blame or point fingers, but rather to help a fellow Q enthusiast. Hope you didn't take it any other way.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LarryR:


I too would ask how long did they cook for and how did you check for done? Also, you mentioned you have produced moist ribs using water, other than water anything else different between the cooks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1.see above
2.no
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by David Lohrentz:
Jacob,

With the Clay saucer, my temp at the grate runs hotter than the temp at the lid. Is it possible that you might have been cooking at a higher grate temp than you thought?

In any case, nobody is asking questions to place blame or point fingers, but rather to help a fellow Q enthusiast. Hope you didn't take it any other way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dunno,could be.but at this point its starting to sound like its actually more work going waterless than it is using water.
1.using another thermo to check and see if the grates are hotter than the lid
2.checking the ribs an hour early to see where they are at.which will add more minutes to your cook time in the long run.

i thought the reason for going waterless was to make things easier?????
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He Jacob, as David said, we're just asking questions to see if we can help, that's all. Bottomline, I think we all do what works best for us as individuals. For me, waterless is easier and always results in excellent product so I've stuck with it. If water gave me better product I would have gone back to water. Just trying to see if something I have learned could also help you.

The one difference I see between our two cooks is length (time) of your cook. My St. Louis spare cooks usually go 7 hours at 225 grate 235 lid.

Again, just trying to help out, if water gives you better product, I'd go back to water in a flash.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LarryR:
He Jacob, as David say, we're just asking questions to see if we can help, that's all. Bottomline, I think we all do what works best for us as individuals. For me, waterless is easier and always results in excellent product so I've stuck with it. If water gave me better product I would have gone back to water. Just trying to see if something I have learned could also help you.

The one difference I see between our two cooks is length (time) of your cook. My St. Louis spare cooks usually go 7 hours at 225 grate 235 lid.

Again, just trying to help out, if water gives you better product, I'd go back to water in a flash. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks man you see my point.
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and wow 7 hours,thats a long time.you also may like a different texture than me.in fact i have noticed peoples opinions on ribs do vary.

i want to be able to take a bite and that portion comes clean off the bone.
some people like:
one bite and all the meat comes off.(some people say this is overdone,some love it this way)
some people like a little "tug" on their ribs.(personally i think this is undercooked)


here is a video of some ribs i did a year or so ago.these were pretty much perfect by my definition.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=6814033
 
I'm with Jacob. I always stick with water in the foiled pan. I have found the product to be more moist in the end. OF course it could just be in my head.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the water evaporates,which is why you need to fill the pan back up on long smokes.and when water evaporates,it turns to steam,and the steam rises and goes up to the meat.how could it not help keep it moist? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Whatever help it might provide is minimal at best. The water in the pan evaporates too slowly and what little steam is generated flows right up and out the top vents. Were water required, cooks using offset smokers would never produce moist ribs, let alone waterless WSM users.

If the meat doesn't come off the bone at all or with difficulty the ribs are obviously undercooked. At the early stage of this the meat can read as dry. If the meat does come off the bone but isn't moist they are overcooked.

Like others, I am in no way trying to convince you to go waterless. I don't use water for commercial ribs because I cook them at higher temps. If you have cooked them twice with similar results (meat comes off the bone but is dry) then they cooked too long. If you want to try again, check for done much sooner using a probe between the bones and do not cook by time. They are getting done sooner than you think and you need to see when that is and pull them at that time. (Of course if the meat isn't coming off the bone they are undercooked and need to go longer. I am assuming the meat did come off the bone in both your cooks.)

Checking for done takes seconds and does not appreciably add cook time. If you lift the lid straight up enough to just give you room to get your hand in the lid will hold some heat. A quick probe once to feel the meat and the lid goes back on--10 seconds tops.

If you don't want to bother and prefer water, fine. I use water for low/slow cooks because I find it easy. I don't with commercial pork ribs because I don't see the need for low temps.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jacob samarin:
i thought the reason for going waterless was to make things easier?????
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</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is easier to go waterless because cleaning up the greasy water, for me, is a nasty chore. If you don't think it's a big deal, then water is much more attractive to you than to me. To each his own. Enjoy your ribs - that's the important thing.
 
Jacob I have a couple recommendations..

If you are cooking the same size racks of ribs for the same amount of time and they're now coming out dry without water I would suggest checking your thermometers off the bat. That leads to more problems than people realize.

If they end up calibrating correct (212* in boiling water) then it's time to look at the meat you're buying... Were the "Perfect" ribs you cooked purchased at the same place you are currently buying them? (which by the videos looked fantastic
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) Are they the same brand? Were they enhanced etc.? <----HUGE DIFFERENCE IF THEY WERE!

If both of the above are the same, then it's time to look further into the cause.......when did you rub the ribs? Was the rub the same or a different recipe? BBQ needs salt in my opinion but too much salt or a salty rub put on too soon can and will cause dramatic differences in the outcome of the product. If that is still on par with the previous ribs then........... I dunno..... Because I agree with the consensus......"cooking with water in the pan will NOT produce moister ribs than cooking with sand in the pan will".

If it helps, here is how I like to cook spares and the results are the same everytime.

Cook St. Louis trimmed spares in the smoke with a dome temp in the 245-260* range for 3.5-4 hrs (less if the meat starts to pull back early). Then foil with NO liquid for 45 minutes, then back on the grill meat side down and saucing the bone side for 30 minutes, flip and sauce the meat side for another 30 minutes or until ribs are tender (lift from the center of the rack and the rack should bend easily but not break).

I too like a "bite" to my ribs and do not like "fall of the bone" ribs. This method consistently produces these results.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Were water required, cooks using offset smokers would never produce moist ribs, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its funny you mention that becuase i was watching video of one of the "bigger" cookoffs and lost of guys were adding water to their offsets to get the "steam" effect.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
If you have cooked them twice with similar results (meat comes off the bone but is dry) then they cooked too long. If you want to try again, check for done much sooner using a probe between the bones and do not cook by time. They are getting done sooner than you think and you need to see when that is and pull them at that time. (Of course if the meat isn't coming off the bone they are undercooked and need to go longer. I am assuming the meat did come off the bone in both your cooks.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as far as texture they were perfect.they came off the bone were i bit into them.in no way were they mushy,nor did all the meat fall off the bone all in one bite.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Larry Wolfe:
Jacob I have a couple recommendations..

If you are cooking the same size racks of ribs for the same amount of time and they're now coming out dry without water I would suggest checking your thermometers off the bat. That leads to more problems than people realize.

If they end up calibrating correct (212* in boiling water) then it's time to look at the meat you're buying... Were the "Perfect" ribs you cooked purchased at the same place you are currently buying them? (which by the videos looked fantastic
icon_wink.gif
) Are they the same brand? Were they enhanced etc.? <----HUGE DIFFERENCE IF THEY WERE!

If both of the above are the same, then it's time to look further into the cause.......when did you rub the ribs? Was the rub the same or a different recipe? BBQ needs salt in my opinion but too much salt or a salty rub put on too soon can and will cause dramatic differences in the outcome of the product. If that is still on par with the previous ribs then........... I dunno..... Because I agree with the consensus......"cooking with water in the pan will NOT produce moister ribs than cooking with sand in the pan will".

If it helps, here is how I like to cook spares and the results are the same everytime.

Cook St. Louis trimmed spares in the smoke with a dome temp in the 245-260* range for 3.5-4 hrs (less if the meat starts to pull back early). Then foil with NO liquid for 45 minutes, then back on the grill meat side down and saucing the bone side for 30 minutes, flip and sauce the meat side for another 30 minutes or until ribs are tender (lift from the center of the rack and the rack should bend easily but not break).

I too like a "bite" to my ribs and do not like "fall of the bone" ribs. This method consistently produces these results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

man,my head is starting to hurt.
i did EVERYTHING EXACTLY THE SAME.

and your method sounds good but again,foiling,then unfoiling sounds like just as much work as adding water to the pan.which basically defeats the purpose of going waterless.


the only thing i can think of is maybe the foil being on top of the pan is radiating more heat back on the ribs with the waterless method,therefore cooking them faster.but then again the ribs were not mushy,and the texture was great.the only problem was they were dry.and b.t.w. it wasnt like they were bone dry,they still had some moister,they were just not as moist as i like them.usually i can give a rib a little squeeze and juices will drip out.with these,it was not happening.

heck i remember when i first started on my original offset id cook them for 7 hours.all the meat would slide off the bone if you even picked the rib up.(a.k.a. overcooked)but even those were more juicy than these waterless wsm ones were.

plus if i like the way the ribs come out with water then whats the big deal?maybe ill try going with the water again and seeing if it really makes that much difference.AND ILL DO EVERYTHING EXACTLY THE SAME.
icon_wink.gif
 
Well, many don't bother with water unless a heatsink is required. Even in an offset, steam generation is minimal in relation to airflow.

If the texture was perfect (and I am with you on what perfect means in regard to ribs) but the meat was dry, they cooked too long.

Off subject, but have you been to Chalet Basque on Oak? Wondering if it was worth a visit.
 
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