question for the brisket pros among us


 
J

Jeff_S

TVWBB Fan
I have been smoking mostly brisket and butts for two years now - and have enjoyed everything that has come off my smoker. However, I do find that when it comes to brisket, my wife and myself strongly prefer the point over the flat. This seems to be counter to the general consensus among the folks here, whose input I have come to trust. So, I am thinking I am doing something "wrong" - allow me to explain my procedure:
- fire the WSM with the Minion method (kingsford, misquite, pecan)
- use two Brinkman charcoal pans stacked one inside the other and filled of 6 liters of water
- 10-14 pound packer on the lower rack, fat side down (while the WSM is still cold)
- put a couple of butts on the top rack (Mr. Brown style)
- bring the temp up to 240 or 250 and keep it there
- cook the brisket until the center of the flat registers 182 *on my therm*
- remove and place in a covered roasting pan (I used to foil) and place in the slightly warmed oven to rest for an hour or two

Why 182? I tried 190 the first time and found it very dry. I tried 188, 185, and 182, and found 182 to be just about "right" - but I am now questioning that. I figure maybe my thermometer is off my 10 degrees or so - no big deal. BUT, I have found the flat's consistancy to be somewhat tough and slightly dry. Given the majority of folks here seem to prefer the flat, I am wondering if I am doing something wrong. Could this be because I am not allowing it to reach some optimal temp higher then 182? Is there still some tenderizing to do? I am afraid it will be too dry if I let it stay on there past 182 or so...any tips would be appreciated. I prefer NOT to have to foil and place back on the smoker - although I do imagine that might be an easy improvement, I would like to pursue other options and see if I can learn to cook a brisket to perfection without foiling it.

Jeff
 
I don't use a thermometer at all when doing brisket. I stick a long fork in it. If it go through easily and the meat doesn't rise when I pull it out, then it's done.
 
I will be following this thread, as I will be interested to hear ideas w/out foiling. And I am by no means a pro...always learning.

I foil, so offer no comments yet other than, I started using choice packers over select, and have noticed a more tender flat.
The last one was a packer trimmed choice and the best one yet.

Do you trim at all, and are you using select or choice?
 
Are the flats choice, select or prime? I purchased a select flat from wal-mart and it turned out as you described. Since I have not been able to find a better cut I never cooked a brisket again.
 
Agreed, Scott. Tender is done.

Jeff--Temp can be used as a guide to check for tenderness and, things being equal (like brisket size/grade and cook temp) from cook to cook, can be used to tell you when the meat is done--but I'm not sure from your description what the problem is.

'Dry and chewy' indicates undercooked; 'dry but tender (or stringy)' indicates overcooked. I originally guessed that in your case a 'dry' flat coupled with point that you say you prefer indicated overcooked as, usually, when the flat is moist and tender the point is not yet done, rendering-wise, for most people. But 'somewhat tough and slightly dry' is indicative of undercooked--hence my confusion.

If the therm is off, which seems likely, it can be off inconsistently--in other words, off by 8 this moment, 10 the next, 7 the next--especially if digital. Get a new therm, preferably a tip-sensitive digital, test it, and try again.

Also, I'd suggest returning to resting wrapped in foil. If the temp in your oven is higher than the brisket's temp the meat will continue to cook, albeit slowly, and resting is thwarted or inconsistent. If the oven temp is lower--well,okay--but the dry oven conditions can have an affect as it's near impossible to enclose the brisket air tight. It's important, too, that the meat be allowed to cool somewhat during resting; cooling allows the meat to better absorb/retain moisture.

Counter-intuitively, Select-grade brisket often need more cook time (thus a higher internal) than Choice. Selects can be tricky to gauge as the grade is wide--it can be 'almost Choice' all the way down to 'a hair better than dog food/commercial grade'.
 
I used to have trouble with briskets as well until I started cooking them at higher temps (335-350 lid).

Along the way though, I discovered that internal brisket temps are all over the place.

Because I was doing high heat cooks and was still experimenting with the process, I began to check internal temps with a thermapen instead of the probes I had been using.

I was amazed at how temps flucuated inside the brisket. If the probe was intserted 1/4 inch too high or too low from what you thought was the center, the reading would be higher than the center actually was.

Then I figured out how "tender" felt, and now use that as my guide.

Next time I cook a packer, I will check finishing temps just out of curiosity.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by craig castille:
I used to have trouble with briskets as well until I started cooking them at higher temps (335-350 lid) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you foil with that method? I am guessing not. About how long for say a 10 lb packer, 5-6 hrs?
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I would think the briskets I buy are Choice - I buy my meat from HEB and have had great results with every other cut of meat I have ever purchased from them. I trim them fairly aggressively - perhaps more then Chris's pics here show. I figure that the pork on the top will help keep the brisket dripping with pork fat and prevent it from drying out.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:

'Dry and chewy' indicates undercooked; 'dry but tender (or stringy)' indicates overcooked. I originally guessed that in your case a 'dry' flat coupled with point that you say you prefer indicated overcooked as, usually, when the flat is moist and tender the point is not yet done, rendering-wise, for most people. But 'somewhat tough and slightly dry' is indicative of undercooked--hence my confusion.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, that is why I have been unable to apply the general advice I find on this board - I'm confused, too
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My results are reasonably consistant - the flat *seems* a bit undercooked yet the point is cooked to perfection. Bear in mind I live in brisket country - I have an idea what a "good" brisket should be. I may try changing the temp at which I cook - maybe bring the temp up to 270. I would also like to learn to tell doneness by feel - I think that may help.
My guess is the flat still has some cooking to do - I have tested inserting the temp probe in both the flat and the point - it tends to slide into the point very easily but I get a bit of resistance when inserting into the flat. The further the probe goes, the higher the resistance.
I only preheat the oven a tiny bit (probably to 120 or so) so the brisket isn't going into a large cold space. I understand that in order for the juices to redistribute, the internal temp must be allowed to fall a bit in order to allow the protiens to "uncoil". I'm too frugal to keep using so much foil on my BBQ - and have not found the quality to be any different - I had this problem with and without foiling.

Jeff
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Draper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by craig castille:
I used to have trouble with briskets as well until I started cooking them at higher temps (335-350 lid) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you foil with that method? I am guessing not. About how long for say a 10 lb packer, 5-6 hrs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I foil it. I'll foil when the brisket reaches the 170's...usually between the 3 and 4 hour mark.

Most of the packers have been 10-13 lbs, and are finished in around 5 hours cook time. Some briskets have finished less than 5 hours.
 
In my experience each brisket is different. One will be tender at 180 the next 188. I keep an eye on the on the temp up to 180. Once there I pick up the therm to use as a probe. I stop reading the temp. When it slides into the meat like a knife in warm butter it is perfect.

I then take it off the wsm and take a knife and cut off the point. I foil the flat with the fat cap up and foil the point and put it back on the wsm for another hour or 2. I suppose it isn't necessecary to foil the point but that is what I do.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I then take it off the wsm and take a knife and cut off the point. I foil the flat with the fat cap up and foil the point and put it back on the wsm for another hour or 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does cutting off the point cause fluid (moisture) to be lost? Do you let it rest awhile before cutting the point?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt Savage:

Does cutting off the point cause fluid (moisture) to be lost? Do you let it rest awhile before cutting the point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it won't lose moisture. In fact many people cook the point separate from the flat.

No need to rest it either if you are going to further cook the point.
 
Jeff,

If you buy briskets from HEB, they are probably not choice grade briskets. They are probably select. When I lived in Austin and shopped at HEB, the steaks that were not marked with any grade were select.

I have had similar results to what you have described in the past. I've found that when you cook a 10-14 pound packer on the bottom rack that the point and flat ends of the brisket hang over the edge of the water pan and touch the side of the cooker. They get direct heat that way. While the point can easily tolerate this at 250, the flat can dry out that way. This is how I got briskets with a great, perfectly rendered point and a dry flat.

So, really what I would recommend is that you buy choice packers, do very little trimming on the flat end (and really none on the bottom/fat cap side), and monitor the grate temp with a reliable therm to get it at around 225-235. I think 250 grate temp with the flat hanging over the edge of the pan on the bottom rack may be a problem.

Hope this helps. I'm very happy with the way my low-temp briskets are turning out since I've taken my own advice.

BTW-i do foil only after pulling the brisket off and rest in a cooler at least 1.5 hours. This also seems to help keep it juicy.
 
If I have a part of the brisket hanging over the edge, I'll put a piece of foil under the exposed area. This really helps a lot.

I think Keri C had posted that a long time ago.
 
Yeah - I put two pieces of foil on the bottom rack - one on each side where the brisket's length extends beyond the edge of the waterpan.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does cutting off the point cause fluid (moisture) to be lost? Do you let it rest awhile before cutting the point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so. I cut as close to the point as I can, leaving the fatcap on the flat to rest in foil. The point has pleanty of internal fat so leaving some isn't necessecary. It is a lot easier to remove the point when cooked than when raw. Some cut it off before cooking, but space isn't a problem for me.

I cut the point immediately after taking off so I don't have to add more charcoal. It is much easier to have some kind of gloves to wear when cutting. I find touching the hot brisket isn't that bad, but having the grease on your fingers tends to still be hot when you remove your hand.

I forgot about hanging over the water pan. I feel your pain. Fortunately that doesn't really effect me. I do my smoking on a magnum. I use 22 inch grates. I don't have problems with brisket hanging over that. My wsm misses me during the spring summer months.
 
I have found that injecting the brisket with a couple of cans of straight beef broth or broth with a little wooster sauce adds flavor and moisture to the finished product.
 
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