Prime Brisket Problem
- Thread starter Tom Chips
- Start date
My original guesstimates on time were a little off
I checked the feel of it when it was reading 190, and it was still quite tough, with at least a cup or two in the foil. So I carefully wrapped it back up, and added some more charcoal. It's been varying between 265-290 for most of the cook. I want to get it up to 300 or so, and let it finish off. The door is completely off till this new handful of mesquite lump gets going.
I'm probably not going to pull it off for quite a while. I think it will take a bit longer in the foil than originally planned. The majority of the point has been cooking along fine, in foil, next to the flat. I don't want to overcook it, but it sure felt tough when I slid a small knife in the side. I will use my thermapen on my next check, and find the average temp.
As long as I get some brisket in me tonight, I'm happy.
The smell of it is incredible, and I tasted a bit of the bark, and thought it was the best I've done to date, Being as fair as I could judging my own brisket in the past on taste and texture( not worrying so much about appearance)I haven't made anything over a 6 on taste or maybe a 7 on texture. Here's to keeping my fingers crossed
I checked the feel of it when it was reading 190, and it was still quite tough, with at least a cup or two in the foil. So I carefully wrapped it back up, and added some more charcoal. It's been varying between 265-290 for most of the cook. I want to get it up to 300 or so, and let it finish off. The door is completely off till this new handful of mesquite lump gets going.
I'm probably not going to pull it off for quite a while. I think it will take a bit longer in the foil than originally planned. The majority of the point has been cooking along fine, in foil, next to the flat. I don't want to overcook it, but it sure felt tough when I slid a small knife in the side. I will use my thermapen on my next check, and find the average temp.
As long as I get some brisket in me tonight, I'm happy.
Well, I pulled it off just a few minutes ago. The wired probe temp was reading 202. My thermapen read anywhere from 204-210 in different areas. It was still very firm. I'm rather disappointed now. I can't see how it overshot. It was firm at 160 when I foiled, and less than an hour later, it was still firm as it reached 190.
My only hope is that if I leave it foiled for a long time, some reabsorption of juices might help it. The odd thing is I pulled the separated point off at the same time, and it was as tender as a sponge. I will likely leave that part foiled only for 40 minutes or so, then eat that one tonight. The fact that the point felt tender at the same time the flat was at a high "done" temp leads me to think that it somehow overcooked.
I will fire off some pics in a bit once it's all cool enough to slice without hemorrhaging all over the place.
My only hope is that if I leave it foiled for a long time, some reabsorption of juices might help it. The odd thing is I pulled the separated point off at the same time, and it was as tender as a sponge. I will likely leave that part foiled only for 40 minutes or so, then eat that one tonight. The fact that the point felt tender at the same time the flat was at a high "done" temp leads me to think that it somehow overcooked.
I will fire off some pics in a bit once it's all cool enough to slice without hemorrhaging all over the place.
Tom Burrus
TVWBB Fan
I can hardly wait to hear how she tastes with that nice rub Tom. I am thinking of using Kevin's (unsweet) coffee rub on my next brisket this weekend. Oh and I think you are probably being too critical of your own cooking... Your expectations are quite high (nothing above 6 on taste) or perhaps the scale is weighted? I can relate though, I am also extremely critical of my own cooking whereas everyone else says it is fantastic... I don't ever think so! Good luck!
All the best,
Tom
All the best,
Tom
Jim Minion
TVWBB Emerald Member
Tom
I would recommend that you try pulling prime briskets at 180 to 190 internal, foil and hold a couple hours. It will be tender and very moist, 200 and higher temps take away from the overall quality of prime briskets.
I would recommend that you try pulling prime briskets at 180 to 190 internal, foil and hold a couple hours. It will be tender and very moist, 200 and higher temps take away from the overall quality of prime briskets.
Thank you Jim. I was just reading one of your posts on another forum about this same thing. I didn't want to keep posting without sharing some pics, but the flat is still in the foil, and not quite ready to slice yet.
I feel like the title of the thread throws off everyone, because it started out as a cooking topic on prime briskets, but of course, the cook I'm doing today is the no roll packer. I will certainly use all the gathered wisdom here in the next few weeks for the prime. I turn 30 on the 29th, so I will be out of town.
The one hope I have, is if the flat tastes anything like the point I just sliced and ate, then I'm in for a treat. Without a doubt, the finest tasting brisket I have ever eaten, and I am usually pretty hard on myself. The point couldn't even be picked up, with tongs without begining to tear. I had to gently roll it out of the foil, and then slice it. It had the resistance of pudding, but amazingly didn't loose its texture and feel like pot roast. I don't know if these findings will correlate at all with the flat, but I wonder if the FAB helped with moisture retention on the point? There was literally no juice in the foil of the point, just about 1 tablespoon of fat and grease.
Anyways, next post will have pictures of the flat I swear.
I feel like the title of the thread throws off everyone, because it started out as a cooking topic on prime briskets, but of course, the cook I'm doing today is the no roll packer. I will certainly use all the gathered wisdom here in the next few weeks for the prime. I turn 30 on the 29th, so I will be out of town.
The one hope I have, is if the flat tastes anything like the point I just sliced and ate, then I'm in for a treat. Without a doubt, the finest tasting brisket I have ever eaten, and I am usually pretty hard on myself. The point couldn't even be picked up, with tongs without begining to tear. I had to gently roll it out of the foil, and then slice it. It had the resistance of pudding, but amazingly didn't loose its texture and feel like pot roast. I don't know if these findings will correlate at all with the flat, but I wonder if the FAB helped with moisture retention on the point? There was literally no juice in the foil of the point, just about 1 tablespoon of fat and grease.
Anyways, next post will have pictures of the flat I swear.
As promised...
This is the best tasting brisket I have ever eaten. The Forschner Knife was amazing. I never knew how challenging it is to slice these appropriately. These slices are about 2-3 mm too thick. They tear apart very easily. I'd give the tenderness maybe an 8, definitely a solid 7. Maybe if I had the slicing down better that number could jump.
I shot a few different settings, trying to get the texture to show. I'm far from a decent photographer.
When I opened up the foil, there was no water based liquid inside, just liquid grease. I don't know if this is the result of the FAB or not. Maybe more likely it was overcooked. My next batch (not prime) will be done the same pulled a bit sooner, without the FAB. This is the first time I have done an overnight marinade. I realized that I need to get more experience with the "feel" of properly cooked brisket. I figured this would be tough as boot leather, but it sliced like it would fall apart if stared at wrong. I'm happy with the even flavor, smoke ring development and texture. I think if I got it off the smoker a bit earlier, I'd have something worth turning in to some judges. Now I have a huge mess to clean up in the kitchen, and then bed.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Of course, I would appreciate any feedback and comments.
This is the best tasting brisket I have ever eaten. The Forschner Knife was amazing. I never knew how challenging it is to slice these appropriately. These slices are about 2-3 mm too thick. They tear apart very easily. I'd give the tenderness maybe an 8, definitely a solid 7. Maybe if I had the slicing down better that number could jump.
I shot a few different settings, trying to get the texture to show. I'm far from a decent photographer.
When I opened up the foil, there was no water based liquid inside, just liquid grease. I don't know if this is the result of the FAB or not. Maybe more likely it was overcooked. My next batch (not prime) will be done the same pulled a bit sooner, without the FAB. This is the first time I have done an overnight marinade. I realized that I need to get more experience with the "feel" of properly cooked brisket. I figured this would be tough as boot leather, but it sliced like it would fall apart if stared at wrong. I'm happy with the even flavor, smoke ring development and texture. I think if I got it off the smoker a bit earlier, I'd have something worth turning in to some judges. Now I have a huge mess to clean up in the kitchen, and then bed.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Of course, I would appreciate any feedback and comments.
Tom Burrus
TVWBB Fan
That is one beautiful brisket, Tom. Love the smoke ring, the glistening moisture as well as the colors and texture. Excellent pics! Man, I am hungry now...
All the best,
Tom
All the best,
Tom
After mentally digesting the whole process, I think I've gotten a bit of clarity on a few things. One, docking probably isn't necessary, and the "scratch marks" they leave in the sliced end result are unappealing. Two, I'd be better off perfecting or at least trying to perfect the basic principles rather than adding curve-balls into the mix. I found out that I don't have the best feel for the doneness with a fork or knife shoved into the side. So, whatever long winded efforts I go thru, will likely add up to very little if I cook the hell out of the meat.
I love the flavor of the rub. I think if I were to do it for a comp, I'd need to remove the one teaspoon of cayenne I added. I found the tingle and burn perfect, but I doubt everyone would. I did go ahead and shake about a tablespoon or so of turbinado sugar on top of the brisket before throwing it on the heat.
Plus, my bark turned into brown jello after sitting in the foil for an hour or so. I don't know if there is a way of preventing it or not without throwing it back on the heat, but I will definitely work on it.
I work in a hospital, so I could bring home smaller needles than what's commercially available to the consumer. That and a good 60cc syringe would probably be the best tool for proper injecting. I certainly want to continue to work with the FAB, and will still inject, but I don't think I'm going to continue to dock the meat.
I love the flavor of the rub. I think if I were to do it for a comp, I'd need to remove the one teaspoon of cayenne I added. I found the tingle and burn perfect, but I doubt everyone would. I did go ahead and shake about a tablespoon or so of turbinado sugar on top of the brisket before throwing it on the heat.
Plus, my bark turned into brown jello after sitting in the foil for an hour or so. I don't know if there is a way of preventing it or not without throwing it back on the heat, but I will definitely work on it.
I work in a hospital, so I could bring home smaller needles than what's commercially available to the consumer. That and a good 60cc syringe would probably be the best tool for proper injecting. I certainly want to continue to work with the FAB, and will still inject, but I don't think I'm going to continue to dock the meat.
Todd Randall
TVWBB Pro
Looks good Tom. Can't wait to hear about how the primes go when you get to those.
Thanks to Steve and Kevin too, I didn't know what docking and no roll was either and my guesses were way off!
Todd
Thanks to Steve and Kevin too, I didn't know what docking and no roll was either and my guesses were way off!
Todd
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, I pulled it off just a few minutes ago. The wired probe temp was reading 202. My thermapen read anywhere from 204-210 in different areas. It was still very firm. I'm rather disappointed now. I can't see how it overshot. It was firm at 160 when I foiled, and less than an hour later, it was still firm as it reached 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you are cooking at high heat with foil temps are immaterial. You can easily hit 190 within an hour--I've hit higher than that in 10 min--but it is essential to remember that temps do not mean 'done', the amount of time the the meat needs to become tender is what determines done, irrespective of temp.
This is (or seems, really,) different with low/slow cooks. With those it can seem like X temp = done and sometimes it does. What is really happening is that when the meat reaches X temp--and if the meat is done, or if it will become done during the rest--then the temp is correlating with done. It can 'mean' done but it does not cause done.
Because when you cook at high heat in foil then temps mean virtually nothing, you have to test for tender. I just use a probe and see how the meat feels. I never bother testing the point per se, though have; it can feel tender before the flat, depending on the meat, though a point 'feeling' tender is not the same as a point being tender because of the nature of the structure of the point. You have to feel for probe tenderness in the flat. Again, temps mean nothing in these types of cooks so don't even turn the probe on unless you are comfortable with ignoring it.
If you are cooking at high heat with foil temps are immaterial. You can easily hit 190 within an hour--I've hit higher than that in 10 min--but it is essential to remember that temps do not mean 'done', the amount of time the the meat needs to become tender is what determines done, irrespective of temp.
This is (or seems, really,) different with low/slow cooks. With those it can seem like X temp = done and sometimes it does. What is really happening is that when the meat reaches X temp--and if the meat is done, or if it will become done during the rest--then the temp is correlating with done. It can 'mean' done but it does not cause done.
Because when you cook at high heat in foil then temps mean virtually nothing, you have to test for tender. I just use a probe and see how the meat feels. I never bother testing the point per se, though have; it can feel tender before the flat, depending on the meat, though a point 'feeling' tender is not the same as a point being tender because of the nature of the structure of the point. You have to feel for probe tenderness in the flat. Again, temps mean nothing in these types of cooks so don't even turn the probe on unless you are comfortable with ignoring it.
I just wonder when the proper time to pull it should have been? I can't help but think that it overcooked as it is. I'm also starting to think that these low grade cuts(likely select) have such a narrow window of "done" that it's easy to overshoot them.
There was no moisture in the foil, and I think much longer, and I would have turned into pot roast.
There was no moisture in the foil, and I think much longer, and I would have turned into pot roast.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Well, when it's tender is when.
The brisket sounds more underdone to me than over. It's hard to say without having a sense of the time. How long did it cook out of foil and at what temp? How long in foil and at what temp? And what was the weight? Do you know how far along (timewise) it was when you first checked it or were you just looking at temps?
The brisket sounds more underdone to me than over. It's hard to say without having a sense of the time. How long did it cook out of foil and at what temp? How long in foil and at what temp? And what was the weight? Do you know how far along (timewise) it was when you first checked it or were you just looking at temps?
So, it weighed exactly 14.25 lbs. I put it on with the WSM at 275 and it continued up to 300 on its own. . For the most part the whole cook was done over 265-300.
So looking back, it went on at 3:00, straight from the fridge. By the time it was on the WSM with everything going the temp of the flat was 40 degrees. At 4:20 the lid temp(all temps were measured at lid) was 300, and the flat was 118. At 7:30-ish, I checked again, at this point I had already foiled as soon as it hit 160. I'm going to guess that the foiling was done at about 6:30-6:45, I didn't document the time. I remember though, because I was a bit stymied that it went from foiled at 160 to 190 in about 45 minutes.
So approximately 3.5 hours at temps ranging for the most part in the 265-295 range, out of foil. And in the foil anywhere from 1 hour 45 minutes to maybe 2 hours. But as memory serves me, it sure seems like it was much less time than that. I had felt the brisket when I took it off and foiled, and it felt very firm. It felt exactly the same way at 190, and still the same when I pulled it at 8:30 temping 210 in places.
So a total cook time of approximately 5.5 to 6 hours, at temps ranging 265-290.
I will definitely start keeping a small journal when I cook, from now on. Kevin, any feedback I can get with this info, would be GREATLY appreciated!
So looking back, it went on at 3:00, straight from the fridge. By the time it was on the WSM with everything going the temp of the flat was 40 degrees. At 4:20 the lid temp(all temps were measured at lid) was 300, and the flat was 118. At 7:30-ish, I checked again, at this point I had already foiled as soon as it hit 160. I'm going to guess that the foiling was done at about 6:30-6:45, I didn't document the time. I remember though, because I was a bit stymied that it went from foiled at 160 to 190 in about 45 minutes.
So approximately 3.5 hours at temps ranging for the most part in the 265-295 range, out of foil. And in the foil anywhere from 1 hour 45 minutes to maybe 2 hours. But as memory serves me, it sure seems like it was much less time than that. I had felt the brisket when I took it off and foiled, and it felt very firm. It felt exactly the same way at 190, and still the same when I pulled it at 8:30 temping 210 in places.
So a total cook time of approximately 5.5 to 6 hours, at temps ranging 265-290.
I will definitely start keeping a small journal when I cook, from now on. Kevin, any feedback I can get with this info, would be GREATLY appreciated!
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
I'm thinking undercooked still. Are you measuring at lid or grate?
I do packers that size in just about 4 hours. Though I Minion the start (I use about 20-30 lit depending on ambient conditions), I get up to 290-300 within a half-hour, about 325 within 45 min. I like to hit 325-350 (lid). I foil at 2.25-2.5 hours into the cook (I don't temp, I just foil somewhere between those times). After foiling I cook between 350 and 375.
So, I am only extrapolating based on my usual and your cook--and I certainly could be wrong. I am just getting the feeling that some more time was needed since you were checking and you weren't feeling tender when you did. It really is hard to say and your feeling that 'if you just got it off the smoker a bit earlier...' might well be correct.
I do packers that size in just about 4 hours. Though I Minion the start (I use about 20-30 lit depending on ambient conditions), I get up to 290-300 within a half-hour, about 325 within 45 min. I like to hit 325-350 (lid). I foil at 2.25-2.5 hours into the cook (I don't temp, I just foil somewhere between those times). After foiling I cook between 350 and 375.
So, I am only extrapolating based on my usual and your cook--and I certainly could be wrong. I am just getting the feeling that some more time was needed since you were checking and you weren't feeling tender when you did. It really is hard to say and your feeling that 'if you just got it off the smoker a bit earlier...' might well be correct.
All temps were at the lid, with a reliable Tel-Tru.
I always minion the start as well. I only used about 3/4 of a full chimney. I have two, and for some reason, I haven't been using the Weber, just some off brand chimney that is a bit smaller. I would guess that there was about 18 or so briquettes going.
This is the first time I tried to do a high temp, and didn't get the the temps I wanted. I usually do these at near 350.
I always minion the start as well. I only used about 3/4 of a full chimney. I have two, and for some reason, I haven't been using the Weber, just some off brand chimney that is a bit smaller. I would guess that there was about 18 or so briquettes going.
This is the first time I tried to do a high temp, and didn't get the the temps I wanted. I usually do these at near 350.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
so what's the final word on fab?
I have some reservations about using it (worried about the flavor in that I don't want it to taste like beef bullion), but intend to try it.
I just can't figure out what to expect. Seems like from your description the thickeners play an important roll in locking in juice, which is new to me.
I have some reservations about using it (worried about the flavor in that I don't want it to taste like beef bullion), but intend to try it.
I just can't figure out what to expect. Seems like from your description the thickeners play an important roll in locking in juice, which is new to me.
That kills me to think that it might have been that close, but still not done. I have about 7 slices of the flat, vac-sealed, spread out evenly. If I gently re-heat it sealed in an open steamer basket, for maybe 15 minutes, do you think that would give me any info as to wether it was undercooked? This is the only way I can think of reheating without overcooking.
I live in Pacifica, work at UCSF.
As far as FAB goes, I will use it again on the next choice brisket I do.In my opinion, the jury is still out. I wouldn't compete with the no roll packer I made. But if FAB works well, after I have fine tuned the other aspects, then I will still use it. I'm not planing on using it on the prime briskets I bought. Maybe I will inject one side of the flat, away from the point. But my first prime will be done with no injection, no docking. Just a good long flavor brine/rub in the fridge for at least 12 hours before I cook it. I will run that one at 190-200 till done.
I live in Pacifica, work at UCSF.
As far as FAB goes, I will use it again on the next choice brisket I do.In my opinion, the jury is still out. I wouldn't compete with the no roll packer I made. But if FAB works well, after I have fine tuned the other aspects, then I will still use it. I'm not planing on using it on the prime briskets I bought. Maybe I will inject one side of the flat, away from the point. But my first prime will be done with no injection, no docking. Just a good long flavor brine/rub in the fridge for at least 12 hours before I cook it. I will run that one at 190-200 till done.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Reheat gently, unsealed as you note. You want it to get warm/hot only, not too long. Remove one or two pieces, fold the bag closed (clip it if you can), and heat the others longer while you sample the pieces. Reheat the others for the time you note, perhaps slightly longer. See if there is a difference. The FAB use can alter expected results in this scenario but you might be able to tell what's what trying it this way.
[Partied a couple times in Pacifica in the late 70s.]
[Partied a couple times in Pacifica in the late 70s.]