Phosphates

[j biesinger]

I'm looking for any info anyone has regarding the use of phosphates in brining solutions. It seems common in the fast food industry (KFC), the original research that's online shows that a combo of sodium and phosphorous salts help retain internal moisture, and phosphates are present in the FAB products.

I looked around the internet for food grade phosphates, the best I came up with was some in pill form thats sold at pharmacies for some kind of home remedy.

 

[K Kruger]

They are most effective as part of an injection (they are useless if not injected or otherwise gotten into the meat) and that is how they are used commercially, as part of an injection (or are mixed into the raw ingredients, as for sausage, before being cased). They are for water retention. They are very common in commercial applications because they allow for odd cooking and cooling cycles (used in commercial applications) and for some overcooking leeway. To me, they should not be allowed in comp Q--but I disagree with much of comp Q's ideology.


Are you looking to purchase?

 

[Dale Perry]

Kevin, first off i totally respect you and consider you a friend that I havent met,YET! But I have to ask you why shouldnt Fab/Butchers be used if its ok for commercial, why not for home,or competition. If its safe to use there, it should be safe everywhere.

Many people here respect you and listen to everything you say because frankly, you have skills and we all appreciate that. I would love for you to put those skills up against us comp cooks.

You might just get hooked, like I did.

 

[K Kruger]

It would have to be a different sort of comp, not a KCBS comp. I have nothing against KCBS per se and as you may well know I help many competitors on circuits all over the place. But my idea of a comp is rather different. (I mentioned this at the Westmont comp to a few people, just in casual conversation. I got looks of horror!

)

My idea of a comp is that no commercial sauces, nor rubs, nor anything pre-made (even at home), nor any packaged item of more than one ingredient (which means no Worce, no ketchup, no prepared mustard, etc.), nor chemical additives, be allowed. I happen to think that skill in the makings of rubs, sauces, injections (if using), and so forth are a HUGE part of successful barbecue. It is those skills that I want to see in others (as well as myself), along with the cooking, appearance, taste, and tenderness.

The issue with chemical additives like FAB or phosphates or MSG is a separate issue in terms of current comp rules. That the additives might well be safe and that they might be used at home and certainly in commercial products is beside the point, imo. My problem is that competitors are not required to show that they have any knowledge of their use whatsoever and are given free reign.

One can smell FAB pretty easily as one walks around a comp site and one can certainly taste it, especially if used in excess. I'm not sure this is fair to non-users. I am open to the argument that it makes no difference but, still, FAB is not necessary for cooking. One doesn't need it.

Phosphates, alone or in FAB, help to retain moisture in the meat. There are other ways to do this that have to do with knowledge and skill. I think I'd rather the latter than the former.

MSG is another issue entirely. Excessive use, imo, by the competitors who are lucky enough to get their entries tasted early on leave those whose entries are tasted later at a severe disadvantage. With MSG more is not better. Not only do some competitors load up the MSG, but the effects of MSG tend to build up and blow out the tastebuds of those tasting. (Try a test for yourself sometime and see if you agree.) Couple this with the taste training the judges don't receive and, imo, there is a problem.

I do not wish this to sound--and certainly do not mean to be--condescending. I count many friends, those I have actually met, those I have only corresponded with, those I know only from here--who compete. I had a terrific time at Westmont and look forward to the time I can go to another, and meet others for the first time, or see again those I've met. As far as cooking one goes, no, I'm happy to help where I can but will not cook one. I'd be happy (and I think it would be great fun) to compare my skills with flavors and flavor development, flavor layering and flavor finish, cooking approaches and methodologies, with those of a similar mindset. But comparing abilities with purchased commercial sauces and rubs, chemicals and additives, well, that just ain't my thing.

 

[Dave Bethke]

I personally don't have skills in cooking just to copy others recipes, when I say I like to make my own BBQ sauce I really meant to say I like to use this recipe I found in this book.
With that said I agree with Kevin in that the comps should be your creations not commercial ones.

Comps are still alot of fun and good commeratary.(not to good at spelling either)

Dave

 

[j biesinger]

To me, they should not be allowed in comp Q--but I disagree with much of comp Q's ideology.

I'm am always interested in this debate.

Kevin, I like your logic that fab and msg as short cuts may prevent cooks from developing their skills. I never really thought of it that way.

The more common argument (not yours) I hear is that things like fab and msg are "chemicals" and you shouldn't use "chemicals" when you bbq. As far as I know NaCl is a chemical too, guess you shouldn't use that either.

The original research I read used a brine of sodium and phosphates on white meat. They measured wet weight before and after brining and cooking. The was a significant difference in final weight between the brined meat and the control. From what I understand the phosphates act like ATP and bind to the muscle fibers and keeps them somewhat relaxed. Phosphates in the form of ATP are common in live muscle tissue but dissipate after death. Injecting phosphates into the meat is a means to restore something that is lost during slaughter. I could be wrong here but from the little I read, heard, and know, it seems to make sense.

I havent experimented with fab yet despite my curiosity, mainly because of the other additives that are in it. I prefer to have more control over my recipes (rather than relying on something pre-made) and fab seems to have a lot of coloring and flavorings added, that I'm not looking for. I was hoping food grade phosphates might be available in small quantities so I could try my own controlled experiments to see if they are worth trying in competition.

 

[Tom Chips]

I really enjoy reading these various opinions. I see where Kevin is coming from, and I have to admit, seeing a comp that was controlled in the manner he spoke of would be extremely fascinating. I would tend to think that it would be difficult to run, simply based on time. Not that it couldn't be carried out in a 3 day weekend, but the learning curve for guys who use all pre-made ingredients would be tremendous. But could you imagine the flavors that would come out of such an event?

I imagine someone winning such an event would be a notch or two more pleased, seeing how that individual created everything from scratch.

I think I could spend 3 months of dedicated research just in the process of making a great BBQ rub, let alone a sauce. I have bought several different varieties of each, and finally found one that I really like.


I was wondering is fab a product name? Or a industry term? Thanks guys.

 

[Dann B]

Originally posted by Tom Chips:
I really enjoy reading these various opinions. I see where Kevin is coming from, and I have to admit, seeing a comp that was controlled in the manner he spoke of would be extremely fascinating. I would tend to think that it would be difficult to run, simply based on time. Not that it couldn't be carried out in a 3 day weekend, but the learning curve for guys who use all pre-made ingredients would be tremendous. But could you imagine the flavors that would come out of such an event?

I imagine someone winning such an event would be a notch or two more pleased, seeing how that individual created everything from scratch.

I think I could spend 3 months of dedicated research just in the process of making a great BBQ rub, let alone a sauce. I have bought several different varieties of each, and finally found one that I really like.


I was wondering is fab a product name? Or a industry term? Thanks guys.

Tom,
FAB is a product name. As far as I know, the only place to get it is theingredientstore.com

I bought some in early spring, but have never used it. We chose to inject using more natural ingredients and for now I think we'll continue to keep it that way

 

[j biesinger]

We chose to inject using more natural ingredients

what do you define as natural? Might you mean traditional? It does seem like there's a big difference between salts of sodium and phosphorous (they are both mined and are inorganic compounds) other than the fact that one has been used in cooking for thousands of years and the other hasn't.

A quick googling and it seems we need about 800mg of phosphorous a day.

I guess other than fab and kentucky fried chicken, there arent any people brining with phosphates?

 

[dsitterson]

I think making you own sauce sets you apart from the commercial ones ..plus it is just more fun to me msg and fab are over my head right now. I cook for fun I like competetions mainly from the people I meet and stuff I learn I like to place well also but it kinda like hunting and fish if you just want to kill it you can go to the store it is about the friends the late night around the pit drinking and eating

 

[George Curtis]

thats why i like doing my own. no junk in the meat. kinda disappointed to read that folks are using that stuff. my wife will get sick with msg so i guess i better not let her eat anything at a comp. sad.

 

[Bryan S]

While, I agree with Kevins view on comps, I really don't make too many of my own rubs and sauces, not because I don't want to, well I really don't want to get into all that here.
I did an experiment yesterday, which Kevin was a big part of, via email support. I have been tooling around with different things over the years trying to create a resturant burger. You know the ones that are just a notch above what you can make at home, they just have a taste to them you can never quite match at home. While my homemade burgers are great to me, they fall short of the few top notch ones I've had, here and there. Well yesterday, experimenting with MSG for the first time, I think I've found the missing part of those over the top burgers. I had made 2 identicle burgers, that I had ground from a brisket point. I split and weighed out the ground beef, came out to 2) 10.85oz balls. I split thebals and gave each one the same # of twists from the pepper mill. Then one got 2 big pinches MSG, while the other got 2 big pinches DC Kosher salt in the center, then just formed into patties. Grilled them on the WSM over lump and some mesquite. Ok now the taste test, no buns just burgers on a plate. Started with the salt burger, yep, tasted great, good burger. Now on to the MSG burger, took a bite and said bingo, that's what I'm talking about, and have been searching for. Took 2 more bites from the MSG burger then back to the non. Well the non was not so great anymore, and I really didn't want to eat it, after having the MSG one. I did eat it, but really didn't enjoy it. All i wanted to do is get back to that MSG burger. Try it sometime, it really is night and day when you eat them side by side. Here's a pic of the 2 burgers. I just found the whole thing pretty cool, and a fun experiment. Thanks to Kevin for the MSG amount starting point.

Because that information was just not available online. I had read about the effect it can have on people, and numb you taste buds... but the amount to use per x weight of meat or x amount of liquid, soups is just not out there. Yes I found a few recipes for soup, that had MSG in it, but very vague information on the amount to use, and I think that's why Kevin metions the over useage of it, people just don't know. JMO

 

[K Kruger]

Cool deal. I am glad you found what you were after, Bryan.

I wouldn't begin to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do in regards to making their own rubs or sauces, or using--or not using--additives. My comments merely reflect my own views about what type of comp would interest me personally, were I wishing to compete, and that's it.

j-- You can get the appropriate phosphate here if you are interested.

 

[Mark Davis]

So Bryan...the MSG burger whipped the salt burgers AZZ? I thought MSG was a BAD BAD chemical....am I misinformed>? Why was it so far superior?

 

[j biesinger]

So Bryan...the MSG burger whipped the salt burgers AZZ? I thought MSG was a BAD BAD chemical....am I misinformed>? Why was it so far superior?

nope, just a bad name. Jeffrey Steingarten's "It Must Have Been Something I Ate" he wrote an essay called "Why Doesn't Everybody in China Have a Headache." I don't remember the exact specifics, but basically in blind taste testing, fewer people report actual side effects compared to the number who report being "sensitive" to it.

Do some research and get the facts. Most MSG comes from beets. And glutamates (the G in MSG) is an amino acid, which is a component of protein. Japan has a word for the taste of glutamates, umami. They rank it with the other tastes (sweet, salt, sour, bitter) and have proven that we have dedicated taste buds for it just like the other four.

I'm not necessarily promoting MSG. Similar to phosphates, I haven't started using it, but I plan to use it in comp, once I have my q where I want it. Right now I have some learning to do and I dont want to be playing with too many variables. Besides, if it gives me a 1/2 a point to my scores I'd still be out of the money.

I still can't figure out the "natural" or "chemical" argument. Everything we eat is a chemical, some have just been in our diet longer.

kevin, thanks for the link. I just picked up some agave nectar. got a good use for it? I was thinking of using it with prickly pear, lime and cilantro (oh and MSG) for a "cactus sauce."

 

[j biesinger]

I did an experiment yesterday

Bryan-love it, nice controlled experiment.

I think I might try out the phosphates from Kevin's link. I want to replicate the experiment I read (water, water+salt, water+salt+phosphates) on some bscb. I'll be sure to report back my results.

I think what Bryan discover is that there are a lot of common practices in restaurant and food industries that are slowly being revealed. I'm a big fan (by fan I mean entertained by, not necessarily a participant in) of molecular gastronomy. The field is a hard one to define (and poorly named) but basically chefs are using ingredients and practices from the food industry to make good food better (or at least different). The fun part is a lot of this stuff is trickling down to the home cooks. Sous vide being one technique that is just becoming accessible to home cooks, and I'm looking forward to the release of Thomas Keller's manifesto on the subject. If anyone has tried sous vide or would like to discuss it and how it relates to the "low and slow" practice of bbq, I'd be happy to start a new thread.

 

[Dale Perry]

Originally posted by K Kruger:

But comparing abilities with purchased commercial sauces and rubs, chemicals and additives, well, that just ain't my thing.

Not all competitors use store bought sauces, rubs, and chemicals. You got my blood pressure up this morning.

 

[K Kruger]

And where did I say that 'all' do?

This is why I don't often comment on this stuff and when I do I go to some length with an explanation.

The problem--if one can use such a term--is that many do. And competitors don't usually know who does and who doesn't. They also don't know where in the line-up their food is going to be tasted. I think that this puts non-users (of MSG, my point at the moment) at a disadvantage. As for FAB, why FAB'd meats have ever done well I have no idea.

But I don't compete. The use of additives is not of concern to me personally. There are teams I help and have helped that use FAB and others that don't. Ditto with MSG, although I try to at least teach them about appropriate levels, but also, unfortunately, have to explain that if their food comes after a few entries where MSG is over-used all bets are off. (I have put some effort nto working out ways to the competitors can overcome this potential problem.) I don't tell people what to do, I answer questions, help them figure out where they want to go and how to get there, and offer experience and opinions. What they choose to do with what I offer is up to them.

If I had some deep issue with KCBS comps I wouldn't help at all. For those that enjoy competing in them, great. I enjoy going. For me, were I wishing to compete, the rules would have to be different as I note above. I am not holding my breath.

 

[Randy P.]

I got hooked on competitions as well for a variety of reasons, some bad and mostly good.

I do agree everything possible should be done on-site and no store bought anything. For that matter I don't even use electricity for anything, trying to stay closer to real BBQ the way it's been done for hundred's of years. I do make my own sauces and rubs and what ingredients I use are normal stuff been around for years. I don't use any "chemicals" or "additives" for anything at home or competing. Maybe this hurts my chances at competing but it's my opinion and the way I chose to do it. I know many teams using store bought this or that and they usually beat me come score sheet time but that's my choice. I compete because I enjoy the friendships and the fun of cooking outdoors.

Kevin, as I have said before and Dale said, I also repsect your ideas, opinions and knowledge, you have certainly made me a better cook. I think I am just sticking to the basics and old-fashioned to much and that hampers me from becoming an even better cook. Not really close minded, it just doesn't interest me. The more we can get away from store bought chemicals the better off we will all be.

As always just my opinions and no harm intended toward anyone or anything, to each their own.

 

[Jon Merka]

Originally posted by Mark Davis:
So Bryan...the MSG burger whipped the salt burgers AZZ? I thought MSG was a BAD BAD chemical....am I misinformed>? Why was it so far superior?

MSG isnt any more bad or good than using salt or sugar or pepper. the health nazis have labeled it "bad" because it is different and like anything it can be misused to bad effect if far too much is consumed. no different than consuming too much beer or too much sugar or too much fat. since it is something the health nazi's have deemed for whatever reason to be "bad" everything written about is to the negative.

now my personal opinion on the flavour of msg in food: i dont care for it. i personaly think that restraunt burgers are abysmal even from higher class restraunts. i dont like msg myself because i think it has an odd flavour that doesnt belong in food.

everyone's tastes are different. but my preference for not using msg does not come from any health perspective but simply because i do not like the flavor it imparts to meats. same is true for injected pork that is so prevelent in stores today. to me it is simply bad in flavour.

by the same hand i detest the foods that have been freed of transfats. there is nothing at all wrong with normal consumption of transfat foods only with the ammounts one consumes. it is simply another politically motivated "we know better for you than you" attitude that has stripped the market of foods i used to like. so i defend MSG even though there was no defense for transfat :/ the health nazis have to be stopped before they ruin food completely even foods i do not like.