My first dishwasher

timothy

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Tim, did you test your water, and get an ion exchange column to match? What you're describing is over softened water.
Really? the first one was installed by Barrets a local Montgomery company and I just went with what they recommended. 15 years later that took a dump and I replaced it with a Sears one, and that crapped out after a year.
Maybe I need to research a little more. I've been out here 35 yrs, and before that I was a city boy living on the southside of Chicago.
Never knew what a water softener was used for till I came out to the super boonies.:)

Tim
 

JKalchik

TVWBB Pro
<snicker> Montgomery, IL, the super boonies? I'm not sure what you'd think of where we're living, and it's still relatively urban compared a lot of area out west.

G/f used to work for Heartland Blood Center out in Aurora. We're not entirely unfamiliar with the area..... having said that, in '95, my boss & I introduced a fine young gentleman (no, that's not tongue in cheek, he really was/is a good guy) from downtown Chicago to a horseback ride on a convention trip to Keystone, CO. He'd never been closer to a horse than through a TV screen. You & Eric would probably speak the same language.

On the subject of softeners.... when we bought this house 10 years ago, the softener clockworks and valving had frozen up completely. While I really did (and still do) want a Kinetico, they're really proud of the name. After a water test, I bought a softener and plumbed it in myself, and I can replace it 4 more times before I'll even cover the cost of a used Kinetico.

Water softeners do vary widely, and you do want to get the right one for your water chemistry and goals.
 

timothy

TVWBB Hall of Fame
<snicker> Montgomery, IL, the super boonies? I'm not sure what you'd think of where we're living, and it's still relatively urban compared a lot of area out west.
That's a shout out to John Coleman who did the weather for channel 7 ABC in Chicago.
He always referred to the Aurora, Montgomery area as the Super Boonies when it came time for cold temps in the winter.:)

Tim
 

JKalchik

TVWBB Pro
Ah.... that makes a lot more sense. I do remember that some downtown folks thought that anything west of Harlem Ave was completely uncivilized. :D And I lived something like another 15 miles west.

Carry on.
 

LMichaels

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Living in Chicago with Chicago water which only has about 3 grains hardness yeah no softener is needed. But if you're on ANY kind of well water especially in northern IL and not using a softener you're making your plumbing and appliances commit suicide. Especially if like me you use modern higher tech equipment. I.e. tankless water heater, high efficiency washer, dishwasher, etc.
As for feeling slickness in the water, the reason this happens is there are no dissolved minerals which actually absorb any soap/detergent you use. Which is also why you need MUCH less to do the same/better job of cleaning. I even have a soft water line outside to wash the car with. End of water spots and no need to chamois.
Dissolved minerals do so much harm to the plumbing it's just beyond funny. As for drinking an RO system does the trick for that. The membrane actually can remove any leftover salt in the water so it's so pure you can even water house plants with it. Also keeps the coffee maker so much cleaner. No need to "descale" all the time
 

JKalchik

TVWBB Pro
Hrrrm. IMO, a filtration system is not necessarily a replacement for a softener, and there are things that filtration flat-out will not do. If you don't need the chemical change that an ion exchange column can provide, then a filtration system may be all you need.

My brother's old house had a lot of iron content in the well water, I don't think a simple filter (okay, even a complex filter,) can eliminate that.
 

LMichaels

TVWBB Hall of Fame
Water filtration will not prevent or remove calcium and lime buildup in you water system. I am not sure what his system costs BTW but Morton already makes a similar system that costs about $299. But again all it does is improve the perceptual quality of the water. Hardness content BTW does not mean it's low quality. AT issue is modern systems can't take the minerals dissolved in the ground water much of the country has to use. Those mineral can and do badly damage nearly every fixture and appliance in your home. So a true ion exchange softener is the only way to truly protect those systems. That "slippery" feel is how water is supposed to feel. It's also an advantage as with a properly working system you can use half the detergent and soaps you normally use, things also dry without hard water deposits all over them as well. When I had bought my home the po did not use the softener for about 2 years prior to my purchase. The amount of plumbing and appliance damage was incredible. Luckily once I put a working system in much of it reversed (quite visibly). The crud that started coming out was amazing. We did have to replace the water heater though, the dishwasher, a toilet, some faucets, etc and some pipes but since I have always had a working system and no damages not even to my very sensitive tankless water heater. In 15 years it hasn't even needed a descaling. Also a PROPERLY working system will have no discernible "salt" in the water and any difference in taste can be made up by using an RO filtration system. I have mine plumbed to the kitchen sink and my ice maker. I now get crystal clear (like commercial) ice with no flakes of minerals falling into my expensive whiskey
 

timothy

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I'm doing some research on water softeners and fleck seems like a good choice. I think it's the same as ABC but I could be wrong ?
Thoughts? ( sorry for the hijack, Clint)

Tim
 

LMichaels

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Some things to think about. Why have a giant filter to remove chlorine? It's not a totally good idea to remove it from the entire water system. It helps to displace rust and iron deposits and keeps icky black mold and bacteria from forming in the faucets. And believe me it does form without any chlorine. As long as you have an RO system for any drinking water, coffee, tea, and other beverage usage there is no need. If spending that kind of coin, find a dual tank softener. I have one made by Fleck and LOOOOOOVE it. I bought it when I was still working and being in airline work my hours were all over the map, and I got tired of a regeneration cycle kicking in just when I was having a shower for example. So now when a regen kicks in, it switches to the second tank and no interruption in soft clean water
 

timothy

TVWBB Hall of Fame
Some things to think about. Why have a giant filter to remove chlorine? It's not a totally good idea to remove it from the entire water system. It helps to displace rust and iron deposits and keeps icky black mold and bacteria from forming in the faucets. And believe me it does form without any chlorine. As long as you have an RO system for any drinking water, coffee, tea, and other beverage usage there is no need. If spending that kind of coin, find a dual tank softener. I have one made by Fleck and LOOOOOOVE it. I bought it when I was still working and being in airline work my hours were all over the map, and I got tired of a regeneration cycle kicking in just when I was having a shower for example. So now when a regen kicks in, it switches to the second tank and no interruption in soft clean water
I'm new to this but I thought this was a dual tank softener? Chlorine levels in my water are very noticeable to the nose.

Tim
 

timothy

TVWBB Hall of Fame
Ah Ok. This one looks similar to yours. https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00A6GPUFS/tvwb-20
My only issue is the large footprint. I live in a tri-level and have a crawl space.
When I first moved in the original WS was in the CS. It was a hassle bringing bags of salt to it, so when that died I re-plumbed my lines into a small closet under the stairs.
That worked for an all in one I bought from Sears, but it might be a little tight for this one.
Specs look like the dual tanks use a 10" x maybe 24" hooked together and 54" tall and the brine tank takes another 18"?
Seems doable if I extend some pipes.

Tim
 

LMichaels

TVWBB Hall of Fame
You might try looking into Kinetico. They make a dual tank, low profile system and it doesn't even need electricity it is water powered
 

JKalchik

TVWBB Pro
You might try looking into Kinetico. They make a dual tank, low profile system and it doesn't even need electricity it is water powered
Heh... No argument that Kinetico makes great equipment, they're also awfully proud of the name. I can replace the softener I bought 10 years ago at least 4 times before I'd be over the price of a refurbished Kinetico.
 

LMichaels

TVWBB Hall of Fame
Yep I hear ya. If you don't have issues with weird work times a normal single tank unit should be fine. I only bought the double tank because having been an airline worker (both flight attendant and a gate/service agent my work schedule was all over the place. So there were times I was leaving for work when everyone else was going to bed and other times I was coming home when everyone else was leaving. Wife and I occasionally would bump into one another and introduce ourselves LOL
 

timothy

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We have crazy hours also, someone is either coming or going, and the DW, WM and shower hours are all over the place.
I like the idea of a duel tank for our needs, just trying to figure out what would work best for our water hardness and GPM.
Fleck does make a compact unit https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B011VT1TR6/tvwb-20
And they also have one that's 48" tall compared to the 54".

Tim
 

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