My best pork butts yet, BUTT they raised some ?'s!!!


 

Dave Russell

TVWBB Honor Circle
Saturday was a first for me, at least for LONG low-n-slow cooks on the wsm. I cooked a couple big 9lb+ butts for 16hrs all day and WELL into the evening, BUT, to be reheated for Sunday dinner after church. Big deal, huh? Well, for some reason, I've just never done a really long cook like this, almost immediately pulled to chill in multiple ziplocks for re-heating the next day.

Well, this is the deal. I only let them rest only about half an hour while I got a shower, and then to my surprise....Out of some of the BEST LOOKING 'Q I've done in YEARS, I pulled out a bunch of FAT and CONNECTIVE TISSUE that "was only supposed to be left if cooking faster for shorter cooks". Silly me.

Even though I saw right away that I'd been making a false assumption concerning my long wsm cooks (but all with long rests in hot coolers), it was all I could do to keep from getting a plate out and having my own little midnight pig-out. The stuff was REALLY GOOD, and to use a finishing sauce would've been absurd.

To be clear where I'm coming from, I'll give a little background. I've cooked "day of" MANY times using my old offset or UDS, and even a few times in my wsm, but those cooks were at higher temps and typically ran more like 9-12 hours, not SIXTEEN. I've always agreed with others that the texture was better if cooked a little slower....so I ASSumed THAT was why my long overnight wsm cooks would typically leave nothing in the pork but a bone and a piece of gristle. Well yeah, but evidently, that's only after a few hours of "cooking" in a cooler as well.

One other thing though, and maybe this has to do with centering the butts on the rack vs. my usual two to a rack, bone pointed toward the outside of the grate. I usually find the bone poking out and loose at around 190* IT, especially if cooking slow. Saturday though, since these two wouldn't have had any space between them, I cooked them using both grates and the bones weren't as loose as I'm used to until about 198*... at least the top butt was. I didn't temp the bottom one. It didn't matter though. It was falling apart, and I thought I might've overcooked.

HOWEVER, both butts were as juicy and tender as ever, and I literally tried to do nothing to the meat besides mix in the pieces of bark and remove all the fat and goopy stuff, only tearing a few of the largest pieces of bark. I've learned lately to actually TRY to keep the pork from being shredded, because bite-size or thumb size chunks will retain flavor and moisture longer. The Bear Claws will probably go end up in a yard sale.

Bottom line though is, I guess I've been using my well-insulated pre-heated cooler to overcook my pork shoulder, and had forgotten just how moist bbq was supposed to be.

Sorry for bad advice given to anybody here, but I'm just glad I learned how to take my bbq to the next level. Unless cooking for a midday bbq, my long overnight cooks will be started in the wee hours and I'll be monitoring meat IT next day during the "cooler rest" with a therm to make sure that I'm RESTING, and not OVERCOOKING. Admittedly though, although I'll obviously be overcooking if the IT climbs past 200*, I have no idea on how long it'll be ok at any such IT before quality is sacrificed.
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Thanks for any suggestions, observations, or any tips on how to ensure I'm not having cooking "carry over" to the cooler to the point of sacrifice. I'm sure I overlooked something somewhere, but I did have some other observations on this cook regarding fuel/water useage that were interesting, too. For one thing, I'm pretty sure now that you use more charcoal by using two grates instead of squeezing two butts onto one.
 
I agree Dave, when holding butts or briskets I usually pull right before tender or if already tender I will tent for 10-20 min before holding. Although I have learned the higher the cook temp the higher the internal temp is when tender.
 
That's interesting Dave. I can't wait to see the input from others. It seems that every piece of meat is different and every cook is different. The Q still tastes great.
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Thanks, Glenn. This cook was such a real eye-opener for me, and the main thing is that it proved that EVEN if you do milk out the stall as I did, all the fat and connective tissue won't be magically all gone when the pork is "prime". I guess from now on, if the pork does pull "clean", I'll KNOW I've overcooked.

I know that NOT OVERCOOKING and cooking EVENLY were the main ingredients to this cook being so good, but I wonder if milking out the stall was beneficial as well in retaining such moisture and getting such superior texture. Since I was around the house and up for the entire cook, I actually changed temps during the cook, targeting an estimated 250* average BEFORE and AFTER the stall, and an estimated 225* average DURING the stall. Obviously, I didn't quite reach those targets or the butts would've been done a little sooner than sixteen hours, but yeah, I was using water in the pan. Maybe next time I'll do a "day of" cook with no water, and raise those targets by 25* or so.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lew Newby:
That's interesting Dave. I can't wait to see the input from others. It seems that every piece of meat is different and every cook is different. The Q still tastes great.
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</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lew, yeah, maybe these butts were more marbled than usual, but BOTH of them still had a good bit of fat and goop left, and BOTH of them were as good as any BBQ I've ever had, ANYWHERE.

The bark was better for a couple of reasons. I finally had some fresh peach wood (used along with a couple chunks of decent white oak and one lone chunk of old hickory), and I used a better rub....basically a tweaked version of Chris Lilly's eight-time world championship Pork Shoulder rub. The only added ingredients were some crushed celery seed and turbinado added to the mix. Also, my ratios were different, with more dark brown sugar and salt, since I didn't inject. <span class="ev_code_RED">Oops, no, I don't think I used any more salt than his recipe.</span>

By the way, his Memphis-Style Championship Red sauce recipe is fantastic! It's a sweet sauce, especially if you use the full amounts of honey and molasses, but just right to please a lot of palates. Low vinegar, rich, and thin enough to seep down into the biggest pile of pork you can get on a bun and still somehow fit a dolop of slaw on.
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Lew,

I don't believe the meats are different with today's commercially rasied animals. What I see is different approaches to the same meats. If you do the exact same thing as far as temps from start to finish there is no difference from one butt to another (or any other large bbq cuts).

Dave,

I haven't noticed difference in Q quality from 225-300. I believe its all in knowing when done is and understanding "your" doneness and serving time, ie: touch, smell and taste the product.
 
Thanks for the tip, Glenn! That would confirm that my butts WERE just as good off the old UDS, but I just didn't like the "fat in the fire" flavor. I was cooking butts in 9-10hrs.

So stretching out the stall is BS altogether?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So stretching out the stall is BS altogher? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion yes, as long as you are cooking less than 300. I have tried many above that and only get soso results if using foil because the outside gets done so much sooner than the inside. I only use foil for briskets because of the thickness issue, still don't like the foiling but too me is needed for the perfect throught doneness of it.
 
....Then I guess I'll just go with what the schedule dictates and what the wsm wants to do ...which is somewhere in the 225-275* range, depending on if using water in the pan.

Glenn, Thanks again for the suggestions. Much appreciated!

By the way, I know you use lump, and I saw on another site today that Tractor Supply Co. has RO lump really cheap, for a seasonal clearance, I presume. Don't know if you have one close by, but I think it was really cheap.
 
There is one in Hattisburg but haven't checked there yet, I get RO @ Walmart for $6.39. Getting ready to order a palet of Ozark Oak though.

Dave, I still use water sometimes if timing applies. I will tell you though if using a foiled empty pan, shut your vents to where you know they like to be after 20-30 min after the lit is on. Waiting for temps will waste fuel and cause higher temps than you want!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't believe the meats are different with today's commercially rasied animals. What I see is different approaches to the same meats. If you do the exact same thing as far as temps from start to finish there is no difference from one butt to another (or any other large bbq cuts). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
one of the biggest Q myths out there is that every meat is different - or that every cook is different because the meat is. Nah. If the cooks are different it is because the cook (person) or the cook (process) is different. Processes and procedures can seem the same but often are not at all. Variations occurs all over the place and these affect the cook. Other than, perhaps, size differences, butts are very similar to each other if from commercial sources.

Residual cooking occurs. Whether, upon serving, this means cooked 'correctly' or overcooked depends on what point of 'done' the meat was when it was removed from the cooker, whether it was immediately wrapped and coolered, or allowed to rest for a bit unwrapped, whether the cooler was pre-heated (something I never do), whether anything else hot was added to the cooler, and how long coolering occurs before service. And then it is a matter of personal taste.
 
Dave's post here got me thinking about a butt I did a couple of months ago. Maybe Dave or Glenn or Kevin (or anyone else, for that matter!) could comment just to clear something up for me....the butcher had an 11.5 lb bone-in butt handy. I didn't really want one that big, but I bought it anyway. (For some reason, I didn't think about asking him to cut it). Didn't weigh it after trimming. If I remember correctly, the WSM dome temp stayed somewhere between 250 - 275. Removed when probe tender, somewhere around 12 hrs. Sat for a couple of hrs. (foil/towels) in a cooler (not pre-heated). When I pulled the butt, there were several pockets of "fat and goop," more than I'm used to seeing. End result: the pork was fantastic...very moist and tender. But I only ended up with about 3.5 lbs of meat! I get the loss from cooking, pre-cook trimming, and bone removal. But 8 lbs??!! I just figured it was a fattier piece of meat. It didn't dawn on me at the time that it could've been due to cook times. I haven't cooked enough butts to be considered an expert on the subject. Any ideas? Was it the meat, or did the fat just not render all the way? And was the amount of loss excessive?

Sorry for the long-winded hijack. But when Dave described his goop, it brought back memories! Thanks for any help....

Mike
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't believe the meats are different with today's commercially rasied animals. What I see is different approaches to the same meats. If you do the exact same thing as far as temps from start to finish there is no difference from one butt to another (or any other large bbq cuts). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Residual cooking occurs. Whether, upon serving, this means cooked 'correctly' or overcooked depends on what point of 'done' the meat was when it was removed from the cooker, whether it was immediately wrapped and coolered, or allowed to rest for a bit unwrapped, whether the cooler was pre-heated (something I never do), whether anything else hot was added to the cooler, and how long coolering occurs before service. And then it is a matter of personal taste. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Kevin. Good things to take into consideration, and believe me...you're confirming everything this cook taught me.

If holding some pork butts in a cooler for a while, would it be helpful to leave a probe in one to measure "residual cooking"? If so, any relative guidelines as to what's acceptable... say...if you've got two hours to hold til pulling?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M. Rollins:
Dave's post here got me thinking about a butt I did a couple of months ago. Maybe Dave or Glenn or Kevin (or anyone else, for that matter!) could comment just to clear something up for me....the butcher had an 11.5 lb bone-in butt handy. I didn't really want one that big, but I bought it anyway. (For some reason, I didn't think about asking him to cut it). Didn't weigh it after trimming. If I remember correctly, the WSM dome temp stayed somewhere between 250 - 275. Removed when probe tender, somewhere around 12 hrs. Sat for a couple of hrs. (foil/towels) in a cooler (not pre-heated). When I pulled the butt, there were several pockets of "fat and goop," more than I'm used to seeing. End result: the pork was fantastic...very moist and tender. But I only ended up with about 3.5 lbs of meat! I get the loss from cooking, pre-cook trimming, and bone removal. But 8 lbs??!! I just figured it was a fattier piece of meat. It didn't dawn on me at the time that it could've been due to cook times. I haven't cooked enough butts to be considered an expert on the subject. Any ideas? Was it the meat, or did the fat just not render all the way? And was the amount of loss excessive?

Sorry for the long-winded hijack. But when Dave described his goop, it brought back memories! Thanks for any help....

Mike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, thanks for relating that experience. As you can see, I'm not an expert. However, I can only deduct that you either got ripped off at the butcher, or that was just a fat pig, or both.
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Seriously, as I said, I've cooked pork at temps from 225-300* for several years now. I haven't noticed any differences in % of final product like that. I had just assumed that for all the "goop" to be gone, you had to cook down around 225*. I didn't start cooking that low until I had a wsm, but I was resting butts for HOURS, and I was WRONG. EVIDENTLY, going by two pork butts cooked to perfection for SIXTEEN HOURS...no matter what cooking temp, if ALL the fat and GOOP is gone, then we overcooked....or it was an anorexic pig.
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Thanks for posting this topic Dave.

For guys like me (and others) reading this post, you are providing a wealth of info. Play by play so to speak.

I have only 7 smokes in so far with varying results on the Mighty WSM. I decided from the get-go that I would go with water in the pan and low and slow (as per Weber's directions) until I have it mastered. With you being a veteran of high heat, cooler cook and L&S, your observations are well received by this rookie.

That's the great thing about this site. Folks try different approaches and share the results.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">f holding some pork butts in a cooler for a while, would it be helpful to leave a probe in one to measure "residual cooking"? If so, any relative guidelines as to what's acceptable... say...if you've got two hours to hold til pulling? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're not really going to measure residual cooking - though you may (or may not) measure a rise in temp during resting (depending on cooktemp). Residual cooking occurs irrespective of whether the internal rises post cook or not. It's mass and time that matters. And whether the heat is contained or not.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the butcher had an 11.5 lb bone-in butt handy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This would be rather nonstandard.

Based on what you wrote after, I would suspect the butt was not actually 11.5 pounds as there is no way it would cook to probe tender in 12 hours at the temps you note. If the temps were accurate the butt would have needed to be smaller - and what you got for usable meat would be accurate.

Or...the cooktemps were higher than you thought, the butt was the size noted - but this confounds the usable meat issue.

Hard to say after the fact.
 
Thanks for adding your thoughts, Kevin. A couple of additional comments/questions for you, if you don't mind: as to the size of the butt being nonstandard...I can't remember now if I saw the scale reading, and I didn't weigh it once I got it home. The shop I bought it from is reputable, and it was noticeably larger than others I have bought. But you got me to thinking that it wouldn't be a bad idea to confirm the weight from now on.

As for the dome temp: When I first got my WSM (early last year) the lid therm tested fine. I've never been too concerned with it since because I only use it for a rough guide. However, I recently used a remote therm probe in the vent and discovered the lid therm now reads about 25 deg lower than the probe. So the temps for the cook I referenced were probably much higher than I thought.

Either way, I stopped trying to figure that cook out. I haven't had one like it before or since, so I'm not sweating it. On a totally unrelated note, I'm doing a HH brisket on Saturday using your method. This will be my second one. Hoping it turns out as good as the first one did! Again, thanks much for your input. I always value it.

Mike
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike David P:
That's the great thing about this site. Folks try different approaches and share the results.
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Mike, wish I saw a lot more of it, but the best suggestion I can make is to do some author searches for folks you think you might learn from. Since you mentioned HH cooking, except for poultry, I've got little experience cooking over 300*. Look up some of Kevin Kruger's threads on HH brisket and ribs, though. He's got a lot of great tips and recipes for cooking really fast and foiling. I'd look up Glenn W. for HH briskets, as well.

Wish I'd used a different title for this thread though since the cook in question ANSWERED some questions and assumptions I had. Glad you could appreciate my observations, though, and merry Christmas!
 

 

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