Knives - forged vs stamped


 
There are as many, or more, schools of thought on knife sharpening as there are on BBQ. Some like belt sanders, some like Japanese waterstones, some like oilstones or Arkansas stones, some like different gadgets. They all think their way is the best and only way. It would be like people with offset pits saying WSM's are no good and can't produce good Q (hey, don't some do that?) Also like BBQ, what many don't realize is that no matter what equipment you're using, the underlying principles are the same and apply across lines of type of equipment, region, etc. If you get good results with a diamond hone, it's because you're using it right. If you understand what you're doing with the diamond hone that's giving you good results, it will be easy to transfer that knowledge to any other type of sharpening equipment. Just like with the WSM and other cookers.

Fighting over whose equipment is better is silly - trying to understand what's going on in the cooker will lead you to be a pitmaster.

In the recent Iron Chef type BBQ cookoff "BBQ Masters" or something like that, Fast Eddy, known for using pellet cookers, won using bricks and steel mesh to build a pit and cook on it. He's a pitmaster.
 
I'm not fighting over who's equipment is better or worse. I'm just trying to explain the difference between steeling and sharpening, and there is a difference no matter if your useing a caurse steel, smooth steel, old screw driver, or a piece of glass. Steeling is alining the edge, and sharpening is grinding a new one.
 
Hey Bill, my comments weren't directed at you. No offense intended.

As for steeling vs. sharpening, when someone is using a "diamond steel," they're removing metal and sharpening. Most steels sold with knife sets are so coarse they'll damage a properly sharpened edge. If you want to steel an edge, you need a smooth steel like this one or these.

What most people call "steeling" isn't steeling at all, they're using something that looks like a file and removing metal. If they knew what they were doing, they'd be grinding an edge, but mostly they're just destroying whatever edge was on the knife before they started.
 
None taken.
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I agree with you on all points about steeling.
 
Well I'm using a Dexter Russell Diamond steel. While I know it removes metal it is so little as to not have reached the dimples on a granton slicer after years of daily sharpening. I know a regular steel straightens. The Kyocera ceramic steel is rough and fragile. The Ikea Ceramic is much finer and far less expensive. Although you'll end up re-glueing the Ikea back in it's handle. My two Ikeas are still working the Kyocera is broken.

The key to Diamond and Ceramic is keeping them clean just like oil and water keeps a stone clean. I find an occasional deep clean with a scotchbrite pad is good. On a daily basis I use them wet with water and wipe well with a cotton towel afetr use.
 
I received that forged Forschner santoku today - remember, the one that I blamed on Paul further back up in this thread?
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This HAS the be the sharpest knife I've ever purchased - positively RAZOR sharp. I haven't actually used it yet, but just it playing with it and holding it, it feels very balanced. Since I'm accustomed to using 8" or, more usually, 10" chef knives, I was afraid that the 7" santoku style would be too small for my ham-fisted self, but I don't think that's going to be the case. Being my first santoku-style knife, do I steel it in the same manner as my western-style forged knives?

This Messermeister knife bag that I bought is, as my niece says, WAY cool. It has all kinds of pockets and pouches inside for lots of stuff OTHER than the knives, which are zipped up inside the cover. This is going to work very nicely for my purposes.

I like new toys.

Keri C, smokin' on Tulsa Time

PS - Tom, you made me a kind offer regarding knives a while back over the Forum that I may take you up on. I'll e-mail you later on.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...do I steel it in the same manner as my western-style forged knives? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, you do. A light touch, follow the angle, a couple strokes per side--just like with your forged blades.
 
Thanks, Kevin - this is my first Japanese-style knife, and ALSO my first forged Forschner. After using it for everything in dinner prep this evening, I've decided that they did well, IMHO.
 
Hi Bill, are you a Japanese steel afficiando? What knives do you have? I'm interested in trying a yanagiba like this one
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for slicing brisket. Have you ever used one? I like my Forschner's 14" slicer OK, but it's made of soft steel and gets dull quickly.

Knives - 270 mm. Hattori HD Damascus gyutou, Tojiro DP Santuko, Tojiro Powdered Steel 240 mm gyutou
Stones - 1000, 5000, 8000 Shapton stones.
 
I kind of am, but I could know alot more about them. My Japanese knives are made by Murray Carter, I recamend them highly. I'm really trying to stop myself from getting the Tojiro HSS knives. They just sound too good not to have one.
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I also have the Shapton stones and really like them alot.
 
Bill, I bow down before you, you have Murray Carter knives. I just got his sharpening video and have been watching it. Do you have it? Which knives do you have? Do you have a yanagi or takobiki you use to slice brisket? I really want to try one of those for the brisket.
 
Tom I don't do brisket much, in fact I've only done 1 or 2. Here is a fairly good thread on Japanese slicers. http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=cutlery&Number=2689&Searchpage=1&Main=2640&Words=yanagi&topic=&Search=true#Post2689 I've also seen you over at knifeforums another good resorce. My Carters are, 2 gyuto styles and a paringknife witch is more like a steak knife than a parer. No I haven't seen his video. I'd really like to but I'm not willing to spend the $ for it when I'm real happy with my own sharpening. From what I've read it's the best video out there right now.
 
In general, you're going to get a lesser quality of steel from stamped knives, in order to reduce wear on the tooling.

In general, you're going to get a lesser quality of steel when choosing stainless vs. non-stainless.

Higher quality is not just the inherent qualities of the steel, but also its heat treating. Good steel can be lessened or even ruined by poor heat treating. Esoteric steels generally require far more controlled heat treating to maintain their quality.

I generally don't look for the same level of quality in a kitchen knife that I do in an EDC (Every Day Carry) or outdoor knife. Ergonomics and the ability to maintain a reasonable edge are the main qualifications. I will choose a reasonable stainless (440A/AUS6 are *not* reasonable stainless) for most kitchen knives over carbon steel, for ease of maintenance. Steel regularly, and sharpen as needed. The Edge Pro sharpening system is excellent.
 
I have a relatively cheap set of knives right now, and have been thinking of forschners for awhile now. I'd like to hold the in my hands before I buy them, though, just to see how they "heft"...one of the reasons I haven't bought them yet.

I have a Lansky kit for sharpening, one that uses oilstones. If the knife is super dull, I'll go over it with all 5 different stones, raising the burr each time. Afterwards I wash it and steel it, then strop it on some damp cardboard.

They are literally surgical sharp afterwards...problem is they'll lose that edge after heavy use. No problem, I just use the fine stone again, steel, and strop again. And no, I don't see excessive wear on them.
 
Hi Phil, I know it's a pain with the Lansky because you have to keep moving the clamp, but what you could try is grind in a more obtuse primary edge. In other words, sharpen then at whatever angle you're using (say it's 17º), then go back and grind in a 21º edge. The 17ºwould be your secondary edge, and the 21º would be the primary edge.

If your knives are getting dull too fast, it means you're sharpening them at too acute of an angle for the quality of the steel or the job you're doing with them. You could also try steeling the knife with a smooth steel before and after each use.

The steel in the Forschners is relatively soft and might not be a big improvement over what you already have.

Here's some info from the Sharpening FAQ
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
A frequent complaint I hear is, "I sharpened my knife and did a good job, it was really sharp. But then after just a few uses it went dull." Why does this happen?

One of the following factors -- and many times a combination of those factors -- is at play:

1. Wire edge
If the burr is not properly ground off, but is instead turned downwards, your knife will feel razor sharp. However, the burr quickly turns or snaps off, leaving you with a very dull-feeling knife. Be sure to use a light touch at the end of the sharpening process and make sure the burr is gone.

2. Thin, weak edge
If the bevel angle you chose for your knife is too thin for your usage, the edge can chip and get really wavy. Try using a larger edge angle, or at least double-grinding the edge.

3. Edge turning
In regular use, all edges turn to some extent. If your edge is much too thin, it will be damaged as above in #2. If it's only slightly too thin, it will quickly turn out. As long as the
the edge is not being damaged, but simply turning, you don't necessarily need to re-grind a thicker edge. Instead, see if frequent steeling will give you the performance you need, it can really work wonders. Keep in mind it's difficult to see a turned-out edge by eyeball -- only using the steel will tell you conclusively if this is your problem.

4. Thick edge
A thin edge will feel sharper than a thick edge. If your edge
is too thick, when it starts to dull even the slightest bit it
may no longer feel so sharp anymore. Consider using a lower angle and seeing if that helps. Of course, your thinner edge will be more fragile than the thicker edge, so you may end up chipping the edge out, and the thinner edge may not be feasible. I personally feel that this is rarely the real problem, so be sure to try the other solutions first.

5. Soft steel
Occasionally, a manufacturer or maker will make a mistake while heat treating, and the steel in the blade will end up too soft. No matter how well you sharpen, your blade will still go dull quickly. Often, soft steel is the first thing people point at when their edges dull quicker than expected. But this problem really is relatively rare; in the vast majority of cases, it is one of the above reasons rather than soft steel that's the problem. So if your edge dulls too fast, don't blame the steel until you've exhausted the above options. If it's still dulling quickly, contact the manufacturer, they are often interested in testing to see if they made a mistake.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Chilton:
The steel in the Forschners is relatively soft and might not be a big improvement over what you already have.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, that's another reason why I haven't bought them. I can almost guarantee you that the knives I have now probably used the softest, cheapest steel on the market. They do hold up for awhile...meat doesn't bother them...but if I do a lot of veg chopping and am constantly hitting my wood cutting board it takes it's toll. I'm embarrased to say it, but I got them for free when I ordered some omaha steaks several years ago (hey, I was in college
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)

Anyway, I've been thinking of a set of Wustoff's, if the steel quality in the forschner's is poor. I mean, I know a lot of people here like them and use them, but they have to be cheaper for a reason. Like they say, "buy the best and only cry once".
 
If Forshner steel is inferior why is it the #1 choice of butchers?

I use Forchners every day and am happy with them. Just bought two new ones today.
 
Nobody said the steel was "inferior" - I said it was softer. They advertise it as # High carbon stainless steel blade with a rockwell hardness of 55-56 HRC. The relative softness of the steel is a fact. Whether or not that makes it "inferior" is an opinion. It's easy to sharpen and inexpensive. On the other hand, it won't take or hold an edge like harder steel. So there are advantages and disadvantages.

I suspect butchers like them because that's what their employers provide them with. If I were working in a butcher shop or commercial kitchen, I wouldn't be taking any $200 knives in to work with me.
 

 

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