hi temp butt cook results

[Dave Russell]

I've had a brisket flat in the freezer for a while that I caught on sale, and finally got it in the wsm, even though I prefer packers. Anyway, that's going pretty predictable for what I wanted to do with it: foil at 160-ish.

HOWEVER, I decided I'd try a typical pork butt in the 275-300 range I keep on reading posts about...no, not foiling. Some folks have claimed you can smoke up to 325 with no problems and not wrap at all.....

Well...Maybe they like their bark dark. I've been smoking a 7.5 pounder since 8:30 this morning with temps in the 275-300 range. I put the brisket flat on at about 10:30 and saw how dark the butt was already. I'm thinking, yeah, no foil, huh? Right..... Well, I just wrapped the brisket flat at 165 IMT, at the 3.5 hr mark. I take one look at the pork meteorite I have sitting by it and decide I better wrap it as well. It temped at 176.

I know it will be ok, but the foil would've protected it from getting so dark if I'd wrapped much earlier. (I think though, that 275 should've been the top of my cooking temp zone, not the bottom, even if wrapping.) The thing almost looked the way I like 'em to look when finished at 2 hours in when I put the flat on! Yep, you read that right.

Well, what gives? Is my therm off? I don't think so. I checked it pretty recently. Why do folks like cooking so hot? I think they don't mind the black bark as long as it doesn't taste burnt. I prefer the mahogany I get when I cook 225-250, myself.

My queastion is: will I be happy cooking 250-275 next time? The obvious answer why is so I can get it done by supper, not cooking overnight. What's my rub? Well, yes, it has lots of chili powder and brown sugar in it, just like any pork shoulder rub should.

Just thought I'd share, and I'd appreciate any folks that could contribute and help me decide what temp to use next time. 275-300 is OUT, at least for pork butts.....cooking on the top rack of a little wsm.

Thanks for checking out!
Dave
wsm, otg, ots, smokey joe, uds, char-griller w/sfb

 

[Dave Russell]

...so that's not really the results. They'll follow, I promise.

 

[K Kruger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, yes, it has lots of chili powder and brown sugar in it, just like any pork shoulder rub should. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I don't do butts HH but if you are going to then you will need to rethink the rub a bit.

 

[Dave Russell]

Gotcha, Kevin. I thought I'd just try this for myself since I've seen where folks said that as long as temps didn't go over 300 there would be no problems. Well, maybe no actual burnt taste. We'll see (taste) later.

What I'm learning is that just as there are long-standing bbq notions that aren't necessarily as critical and/or true as touted, there are also some details that might get unintentionally left out or misrepresented by those that want to buck those traditional notions. For example, if someone has never smoked a pork butt low and slow for 15 hours, how do they know any different than the ones they smoke at 275? Well, I want to learn for myself what's the difference in cooking methods. I'm finding this suits my personality though, as the devil is in the details, and I'm kind of a detail person.

No brown sugar or chili powder on a butt? No...H#%ll no. Required for all TN bbq.

 

[timothy]

Well 275-300 is my go to temps for butts. Ive never had a butt that turned out looking like a meteorite. I only use Turbinado sugar in my rubs.
Empty foiled pan with an air-space.
And mine have always had a nice mahogany finish.

Tim

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by timothy:
Well 275-300 is my go to temps for butts. Ive never had a butt that turned out looking like a meteorite. I only use Turbinado sugar in my rubs.
Empty foiled pan with an air-space.
And mine have always had a nice mahogany finish.

Tim </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Happy for ya, Tim, but imho, brown sugar has more flavor than raw, but no matter, the chili powder is probably just as much a culprit for darkening from what Kevin Kruger and others say. I'll add that the butt was cooked fat down entirely until wrapping.

....so I assume you mean no foil for the entire cook? How long does the typical 8 pounder take for you cooking at 300, and how do you measure temp? I measure at the vent and take into account that the grate's a few degrees less than that.

Thanks for the input!
Dave

 

[timothy]

Dave.
I always do a Minion start, with a slow ramp up to temp. For some reason my 08 WSM likes to settle in at 275 - 300 so I never really tried to fight it.
On average It takes about 1.25-1.50 hrs per lb.
I also measure @ the vent. I'll foil on occasion, depends if I need it done sooner than later.( and I love that extra butt juice when you foil that you can de-fat and add to your PP )

Tim

 

[jason.yee]

i like to cook my butts around 250-275F (lid temp). a 9# butt takes about 10 hours. works like a charm.

 

[Dave Russell]

Both the butt and the flat were done when I checked them at four o'clock, for about two hours of foil for both. The 10 lb. flat cooked 3.5 hours before the two hours foiled, and the 7.5 lb butt cooked 5.5 hours before, so just an hour a pound with only two in the foil, definately the fastest I've ever cooked a butt before.

I've foiled butts before, but it's been a couple of years. As in my previous experience, the foil tends to make the bark taste a little greasy and ruins the texture, so I definately don't want to have to do that anymore.

I found the butt plenty moist, no surprise there, and it had a really soft texture on the inside. However, it seemed like less of the fat was rendered than cooking at lower temps. I've heard other folks say the same thing, so I don't think that was a fluke. I guess that takes time and temp.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jason.yee:
i like to cook my butts around 250-275F (lid temp). a 9# butt takes about 10 hours. works like a charm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jason, my completely practical reasons for completely agreeing with your butt cooking temps of 250-275, but not any hotter:

A. a little forgiveness for the bark if using much chili powder and sugar
B. long enough of an overnight cook for lunch the next day
C. a little forgiveness for bark if cooking more than one butt on the bottom grate. (Actually, my guess is I might want to smoke closer to 250 than 275 if I have two hanging over the side of the pan.)

As to vs. lower temps, I don't see what you give up in cooking at this temp and not in the 225-250 low and slow zone. The texture and moisture should be just as good or better, and it can be done easily in just one day.

 

[Patrick Sullivan]

I think Myron Mixon (Jack's Old South) does all his BBQ at 300-325 (Butts and Brisket).

 

[Guy Wallace]

Mine always come out dark BUT they taste great with great bark ! Judges aren't looking at mine Iam eating it

I know why mine are dark its the sugar I use but we like the taste . Low and slow . And I never foil nutten I like heavy bark way to much to IMHO mess it up with foil . But to each his or her own . gotta go with what you like .

 

[K Kruger]

It's not so much the type of sugar as the quantity - as well as the quantity of dark ingredients (chile, pepper, herbs, etc.) in the rub.

Sugar starts caramelizing at temps above 320, burns over 350. Surface temps are lower than ambient cooktemps for some time, due to evaporation, so unless temps get too high, burning does not occur (though caramelization can, and that means darker sugar). Also, sugar melts and creates a sticky surface. Smoke particulates adhere better, especially if the rub is fairly heavily applied. Higher relative sugar in the rub in combination with the higher temps can mean more darkening because of both these issues. I've made light-colored rubs for several competitors who, either because they are cooking at higher temps or for other reasons, want to control color better.

patrick-- Many Q joints cook at 325 despite what their advertising suggests. If the county they are cooking in (or the state) adheres to the FDA Food Code they have little choice. (The new Code is now 350 for cuts less than 10lbs. It was 325.)

 

[Dave Russell]

Good points, Kevin, not just what's in the rub, but how much. BUTT....

Regarding butt rub amounts, with me, it's like the brown sugar and chili powder....there's not gonna be any compromises there. When I first started, I put a layer on several hrs. before cooking, then another layer on top of that. I no longer do that, but I do put as much on as the butt will take to. To my tastes the bark just tastes better than going skimpy like I do with ribs.

Lately, folks have talked about really loading up their wsm on big butt cooks. My queastion to the high heat afficianados is how high do you go when you have a whole cooker full of butts (HEAVILY rubbed with lots of sugar and THE WORKS). I would think that the area past the pan on the bottom grate would be "too close to the mouth of the dragon" if cooking over 300. Just curious....

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Guy Wallace:
Mine always come out dark BUT they taste great with great bark ! Judges aren't looking at mine Iam eating it

I know why mine are dark its the sugar I use but we like the taste . Low and slow . And I never foil nutten I like heavy bark way to much to IMHO mess it up with foil . But to each his or her own . gotta go with what you like .

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So we're still on butt bark

Guy, you think your bark turns out dark cooking low and slow? Just try cooking with the same rub at 300. THEN you'll have cooked a meteorite of a pork butt.

Regarding taste, I've only had bbq one time that I can remember where the bark actually tasted burnt,(IT WASN'T MINE)....butt, I'll never forget this:

Growing up on the gulf coast, bbq wasn't that big a thing in my family. Anyway, several years ago, my dad was telling me that they were surprised after having some bbq delivered that they ordered, supporting a local church fundraiser. He said that they opened the foil to find this pork roast black all over

, so nobody wanted to mess with it.

See, THAT'S why you don't typically see black bark in restaurants, usually just mahoganey... if at all. Dark bark is just not appealing to most folks and they assume it's burnt. I have a good bit of chili powder and roughly half and half brown and turbinado sugar in my rub, but it doesn't turn black if I cook low and slow. How hot can I cook? I don't really know yet, but I've learned that I can't flirt with 300 for long.

...But hey, if you only cook for your close friends, just make sure it tastes good, and it's all good, right?

 

[dave caston]

to throw in my two cents worth here.
I did a high temp pork butt cook last week. for home use and just cooking for the family, I use a BBQ seasonning add some CAJUN season to it for a bit more heat and I also add brown sugar to the mix. Applyed it to the Butts, and then I put the Butts in a foil pan and smoked it at 350* for 3 hours. after three hours I foiled the pan and back on the smoker for another two hours. at the end of the two hours foiled, I uncovered it, what was in side the pan , a lot of juices, almost 6 cups worth. the meat was very tender and the bone came out with no effort at all. I let the meat rest for about 45 mins. I pulled the meat and in to the frezzer to cool it for sealing later( plus I held some out for myself) I added some of the juices from the pork into the mix as I pulled it. what a great flavor. To make a long story short

The meat had a good bark to it, the flavor was great and the meat was tender, very tender. I have done the over night cooks on Butts and to honest, I could not tell a very big diffrence between the overnight cook and to this 5 hour cook high temp cook.I started this cook at 10:00 AM and by 3:00 PM the cook was done, add in the resting time and pulling the total time from raw meat to cooked meat was 5.5 hours.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dave caston:
to throw in my two cents worth here.
I did a high temp pork butt cook last week. for home use and just cooking for the family, I use a BBQ seasonning add some CAJUN season to it for a bit more heat and I also add brown sugar to the mix. Applyed it to the Butts, and then I put the Butts in a foil pan and smoked it at 350* for 3 hours. after three hours I foiled the pan and back on the smoker for another two hours. at the end of the two hours foiled, I uncovered it, what was in side the pan , a lot of juices, almost 6 cups worth. the meat was very tender and the bone came out with no effort at all. I let the meat rest for about 45 mins. I pulled the meat and in to the frezzer to cool it for sealing later( plus I held some out for myself) I added some of the juices from the pork into the mix as I pulled it. what a great flavor. To make a long story short

The meat had a good bark to it, the flavor was great and the meat was tender, very tender. I have done the over night cooks on Butts and to honest, I could not tell a very big diffrence between the overnight cook and to this 5 hour cook high temp cook.I started this cook at 10:00 AM and by 3:00 PM the cook was done, add in the resting time and pulling the total time from raw meat to cooked meat was 5.5 hours. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know a lot of folks use the pans, but what is the real purpose? I know moisture is maintained better, but I've learned something about the perspective of the cook vs. the folks we cook for. While the cook is so concerned with having the meat real "moist", lots of folks are real concerned with it being real "greasy", and I'd think that the pan and foil would be the VERY BEST way to make it greasy if that's how you want it. "Moist" doesn't have to be like that, though.

Let me tell you about an old bbq joint here in middle TN: This place is famous with locals, as a lot of folks just love it. The thing is, they have a completely different method of cooking pork butts, which is all they cook. They fire up the big hickory-fired brick pit, and smoke a ton of unseasoned butts for a while, where they're not raw anymore, I guess maybe 160 or more internally. Then they cool them and store in Rubbermaid totes in a big walk-in. They only smoke a couple times a week if I'm not mistaken. When they need Q, they take a few out and cut into chunks and boil in giant pots seasoned with salt, cayenne, and black pepper. It doesn't sound like 'Q, but I've had it and had the grand tour by the owner that has been cooking like this for decades. Country music stars have signed letters and photos for his walls, and the barbecue is good. Oh, it's moist and tastey, smokey too, but there's no hint of greasiness, and folks travel miles for it. You wouldn't think it was boiled, and it's not that much different from traditional bbq, but minus the bark.

I think of that old bbq joint that some folks think has the best bbq out there, and better yet, see all the stuff that has collected in my water pan, and I think better of cooking in a pan the whole time.

Nobody's saying that your 'q won't be tender, tastey, and moist when panned and foiled the whole time. Folks might say their tummy hurts later, though. All that grease has to go somewhere.

 

[dave caston]

Dave, to answer some of your comments,The cook I done was for home use only, I did not do this for anyone else. The meat was not greasy at all. This is no diffrent from doing a high temp brisket cook, pour off the grease. I am sure the way it is done in middle TN is good there. Here in the mid west it is cook a diffrent way just as it might be in other parts of the Country. The point of my post was that I did a high temp pork butt cook and I found it was just as good as doing one over night and a time saver for me. I don't have photos or letters that be sign by someone, but what I do have is some good smoked pork butt, matter of fact I do have a 6th place ribbon for pork from the "2008 Raytown (MO) state BBQ cookoff". And just to finish off, send me your address and I will ship some to you for you to try. You have to have some of(pork butt) it first befor you can say it was or is greasy.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dave caston:
Dave, to answer some of your comments,The cook I done was for home use only, I did not do this for anyone else. The meat was not greasy at all. This is no diffrent from doing a high temp brisket cook, pour off the grease. I am sure the way it is done in middle TN is good there. Here in the mid west it is cook a diffrent way just as it might be in other parts of the Country. The point of my post was that I did a high temp pork butt cook and I found it was just as good as doing one over night and a time saver for me. I don't have photos or letters that be sign by someone, but what I do have is some good smoked pork butt, matter of fact I do have a 6th place ribbon for pork from the "2008 Raytown (MO) state BBQ cookoff". And just to finish off, send me your address and I will ship some to you for you to try. You have to have some of(pork butt) it first befor you can say it was or is greasy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dave:
If we fry burgers in a bunch of grease, they'll simply be greasier than burgers cooked on the grill. Right? Like I said, the grease has to go somewhere.

It either ends up in the water pan, which is enough to inspire folks around here to start threads as to how "gross" it is, OR it stays in the pan while the butt swims in it....and that method WILL help hold more of the rendered fat (grease) in the meat...key elements: pan to hold grease and shorter time for fat to render.

Now, I know you drain the grease off, and I don't doubt you and others like it. Congratulations on your win, and if that's what wins, and that's what you like, then by all means continue and don't change a thing. I mean that.

However, your post simply reminded me of what I knew about how some lay persons assess bbq. That's all there is to it. As to the story of the boiled butts, NOBODY does them like that place does. I simply mentioned the technique to demonstrate how appealing the product is to folks....because there's virtually no grease and it's still moist and it tastes incredible.

My point is that those of us that cook for a lot of folks might do well to consider that SOME prefer their bbq be "a little less" greasy....is that a better description? I mean, if we're honest, it's all greasy....it's pork butt for crying out loud, which, btw, IS marbled with much more flat than a flat.

BUTT....some in the crowd might be a little happier if we add moisture by using juice, broth, vinegar, and the like rather than trying to hold in all the grease for moisture's sake. That's all I'm saying, but you cook it how you like. It's all good.

Oh, one more thing, though: You ever had N. Carolina style bbq? Well, one reason for the added vinegar to the pork when serving is to cut the richness or greasiness of the pork. Folks there have been doing it that way for a LONG LONG time, and lot's of the restaurants here do the same thing, not much, just a little mixed in with the meat and drippings, and whatever else.

Regards,
Dave