Frist Brisket question


 
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Tom Raveret

TVWBB Pro
Did my first Brisket last weekend and it turned out pretty well. 8lb brisket from sams with point attached, niced fat cap. Kept the smoker at 210-240 range throughout the cook. Tunned it once and basted it a few times toward the end of the cook. Started at 8:30 am came off 9:45pm about a 13 hr cook. Took it off at 190 when the taylor probe went through with little opposition. It sliced nice and firm pieces didnt fall apart too much. Used the recipie for a midnight cook on the lets cook page. Though the rub was nice it seemed to lack any real punch like the renowned Mr Brown did for pork (I add sometimes double the cayenne to that and use half sharp paprika now so i like a bit of a spicey flavore just not HOT).

1)Any other suggestions for winner rubs for the Brisket category that might fit this description??

2)I hit it with a mix of Oak and Hickory 5 pieces each and was afraid I had given it too much smoke as I've read Hickory can be powerful. About 6 hours into the cook I gave it some apple (did a chicken on the lower rack half way through. But in the end the beef seemed to only have a very light smoke flavor (the chicken was great for smoked flavor). Any ideas on a better mix of wood. I'm not trying to eat a tree here just get a better, richer smoke flavor.

3) after taking it off the grill I wrapped it tightly in foil and put it in the oven at 165 degrees for a half hour before slicing. I felt it had ina dditiona toe the smoke flavor being a bit lacking a pot roast like taste to it. I liked the tenderness but was looking for any suggestions on how achieve a tender brisket without making pot roast out of it.

Thank you all and I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. I am greatful to have the opportunity to participate in this great forum of ideas and for all the input I've recieved directly to my posts and indirectly from others posts. Thanks
 
I want to try again this weekend, I can handle the rub by adding some cyenne pepper I think but can anyone help me with the smoke question and the pot roasty taste??

Thanks , sorry if I went on and on must have scared off respondents
 
I'm at a bit of a loss as to both questions.

It seems like you made good choices about which smoke woods to use, and you used a lot more smoke wood that I would have. You won't get the same intense brisket flavor from the WSM that you will from a wood burning cooker. My only suggestion is to try using even more smoke wood, or if you're using the Minion Method, mix the chunks into the unlit charcoal and place a few more chunks on top. That way, smoke wood will burn over a longer period of time. Maybe that will help some.

As far as pot roast flavor, maybe it's the holding in the oven at 165*F that caused the flavor you didn't like. After cooking, cover with foil and let rest at room temp for 15-20 minutes, then slice and taste.

Many folks will wrap brisket tightly in foil after cooking and hold for 1-2 hours in a preheated ice chest, and I've never heard anyone say that those briskets tasted like pot roast.

Good luck,
Chris
 
Thanks Chris, I think if I get a better smoke flavor that the other issue may dissappear as I like the tenderness!!! I was cooking mostly in the 200-225 range maybe could that have had any impact on it?

Also I'll try your method for wrapping after the cook. I noticed and talked to many at the Royal that were wrapping first in saran wram then foil and them p[uttion back on the grill for many hours. my concern is that you would no longer be imparting any flavor into the meat and "steaming " it from that point forward. Any thoughts?
 
I don't know if the cooker temp has much to do with it, but I tend to cook a little hotter, 225-250*F.

Wrapping and then continuing to cook is common in competition. Helps retain moisture, prevents oversmoking, and yields near fall-apart tender meat if you're not careful. The Beef Brisket - Smoked & Oven Finished topic is an example of this method. You're right, no more flavor is imparted to the meat after wrapping, and the meat does stew in its own juices, so this runs counter to what you're trying to achieve, which is more intense flavor and not a pot roast flavor.

One last thought. It's probably premature to draw too many conclusions from a single brisket, and your first brisket, at that. Each brisket is different, so just try another one, take good notes about what you did and what you liked/disliked, then make small adjustments from there.

Regards,
Chris
 
You didn't say what you used as a rub.

I don't make a fancy rub. Usually salt, pepper, garlic powder, onion powder, maybe cayenne, and a few herbs that suit my taste.

You can always sprinkle on a little rub on after slicing. That may perk up the flavor.

As far as smokiness, I agree with Chris, you used much more wood than I normally do. I usually use three chunks for a brisket. That suits me, but for a heavier smoke flavor go with straight oak or hickory, if you don't want mesquite, for a few hours. That should give you almost a pit-smoked flavor.

Finally, as Chris says, try a few briskets with lots of notes. You'll eventually get the taste you want.
 
Pot Roast texture is a sign of over cooking, if you take it off sooner you will not take it that far. What internal temp was the brisket when you pulled it off the cooker.
Putting a brisket in foil and appling heat will also cause the pot roast texture.

As far as the wood question goes, you may just like more smoke than many others, so more wood may be your cure for that condition.
One thing to realize a water cooker will not apply smoke on food like an offset would, if your use to brisket cooked on an offset then more wood would be needed to achieve that flavor (it will not be quite the same).
We have done very well cooking brisket on WSMs while competing, a number of 1st places and we took an 8th at the Royal inventational a couple of years ago, so good brisket can and is producded on WSMs.
Hope this helps.
Jim
 
Another thought--you might want to use the sand instead of water in the waterpan. My last few briskets were with sand and I think the smokiness is a little more intense.

A couple tricks I have picked up is to get the brisket going as soon as possible--do not wait for the cooker to get up to temp. Smoking at a lower temp on a cold brisket allows a greater period of time for the smoke to be absorbed and the ring to develop.

In my experience, it usually takes me 2-3 hours before I get up to 225 range. Of course, I am cooking with all lower vents closed for first 6-10 hours, depending on environmental factors such as wind, rain, cold, etc.

As for rubs, I have switched exclusively to using Hungarian Paprika. I like the flavor better.

Dale
 
I'll vouch for Chris' suggestion of mixing wood chunks in with your coals for Minnion method cooks. I will usually hide one or two larger chunks of wood (usually plum from by back yard sice I have a lot of it) buried underneath the coals for overnight cooks. I tend to like a smokier flavor, so that's one way to help. The chunks you place on top tend to burn up completely and vanish in a couple hours. Wereas the chunks I bury continue providing smoke throughout the cook. There are usually some remnants left after all the coals go out. Whcih you can re-use.

that being said, there is such a thing as oversmoking. You'll know it when you taste it, and you have to learn by trial and error. So if you're having guests and don't want to be embarassed, avoid the temptation to go overboard on the chunks. Otherwise, practice makes perfect.

As for rubs, you instinct on adding cayanne is right on. In fact, I rarely make any rub straight from the recipe. I play with it to suit my taste.

A great resource for rub recipes is Paul Kirk's rub sauce and marinade book. Follow the links on this site to buy one at Amazon. That book will give you a ton of recipes to tinker with.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dale Groetsema:
[qb]Of course, I am cooking with all lower vents closed for first 6-10 hours, depending on environmental factors such as wind, rain, cold, etc.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dale,

You must have a leaky access door! I could never get my cooker up to 255*F loaded with briskets and all bottom vents closed.

Regards,
Chris
 
Jim it was more a pot roast taste than texture. It sliced nice at 1/4 to 1/2 inch slices stayed mostly together

Richard The rub i used is the one in Chris's midnight do cook recipie on the lets cook page.

Thank you for the input I greatly appreciate the ideas and will let you know how the next one turns out.
 
Dale I have found some of the best paprika at Penzy's spice house in milwaukee (they are in Chicago too as the spice house) they have an "Exquisitie Grade Hungrarian Paprika" that isnt available that often. If your looking for a ohenomenal flafor in your apprika you may wiant to try this once or twice, its not cheap but I think its worth it!! I dont knwo if its available at their online shop but i know it is in the store on third street in Mileaukee.
 
Tom
To change the flavor print try adding onion, black pepper, celery, and chili powder to the rub, I think you may notice a difference.
I use paprika also but find it adds more color than flavor, the chili powder may do more to get to the print you are looking for.
Jim
 
Tom,

What I found with brisket was that it will taste like pot roast if I oven it. The last time I completely cooked it on the WSM brisket tasted like brisket without the pot roast taste.

I also have been experimenting with what I dry rub it with. Since it cooks for hours and hours nothing much is left on the 'skin'. If you cake it on too thick you may not like what is left after smoking so long. I like the Worcestershire dry rub - put on semi-thick with usual other stuff it leaves just a hint of flavor. After nine or so hours not much of anything will be left. Don't cake anything on too thick.

Finally, I smoke the heck out of it for the first few hours. I think Chris or Jim mentioned that meat does not absorb smoke above a certain temp. Learning that, I get the WSM to smoke heavily the first third of the cook until the meat gets above 160 or so.
 
Forgot to add-

For the dry rub I also rub it the night before - not just before the cook. That seems to make a semi-slight difference.
 
Tom, I noticed applicable information from the ?Pork Butt - Quick Cooked? recipe that applies to brisket. (am currently smoking a pork butt).

?Foil traps heat and moisture around the meat, accelerating the rendering of fat and the breakdown of connective tissue into soft gelatin. In effect, the meat is gently braised in the foil, sort of like pot-roasting.?

and

?The downside to this process (foiling) is that the butt is not exposed to the dry.
 
Rita, ok I'm going a bit far off on a tangent but I think you'll appreciate this. This is an even finer grade of paprika than is listed on the Penzys website and dosent appear to be available through Penzy's, The hungarian sweet has been what I was using normally (or the half sharp) This is called "Exquisite grade" paprika.
Penzys and The spice house are both kids of Ruth and Bill Penzy who started this long before I was born. Penzy's has a large mail order business and does much by machine and prepackages and warehouses now where the spice house still does everything by hand and dosent focus on the mail order or online end of the business as much. Both are better than you will get in the store but I am very much an advocate of the Spice house as I think it is fresher as it is packed to order and not off the shelf in a pre-pacaged jar from a warehouse. If you order online I'm told it will ship form their Chicago store. Sorry if I have been incorrectly referring to Penzys and The Spice House as one now to find out they are two different entities though related as brother and sister... literally. The Spice House is the original operation the parents had as I understand it.

www.thespicehouse.com or http://www.thespicehouse.com/spicesp.htm#paprika

This is a description of the exquisite grade paprika
"This stunningly bright orange-red paprika is flown in directly to us by a small co-op producer in Saregres, Hungary. The pods are handpicked and selected 7 times in a manner that still reflects the family tradition of harvesting the world's best paprika. Even though the production is starting off by a small group of farmers, the goal is to utilize modern technology, system uniqueness and not lose the human factor. The result is a paprika so rich in flavor and color that it will surpass any paprika you have ever tasted (unless you live on one of these farms) A normal paprika bought in the store might have a ASTA (American Spice Trade Association) color rating of 100. The Hungarian paprika we have always considered our best has an ASTA rating of around 120. This new paprika which is termed "exquisite" has an unheard of ASTA rating of 220.

At a recent agricultural show in Europe this paprika won the bonze award for best new product. This was not just in the spice category but in ALL agricultural products. You will not find a better tasting paprika, its fresh clean flavor is entirely sweet."

So much for paprika but I am a firm believer in quality spices make the rub!!! I hope this helps anyone looking for a leg up in competetion!! I am very lucky as the store is a 10 minute ride from my house!!!
 
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