Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
Thanks for the details....and it sounds like a plan.
? for how fast to cook butts on bottom grate w/ no foil
- Thread starter Dave Russell
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Thanks for the details....and it sounds like a plan.
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
And you won't, really, even if those questions are answered.
I don't recall Steve doing large cooks. Maybe. Doesn't matter. 'Accuracy' of temp at grate level in a packed cooker would be, in a word, suspect.
Focusing on another's cooktemp might help but quite possibly won't. Too many variables at play. Better to focus on the relative difference of, say, the way Steve was doing it before and what he then did, and relate that to what you've been doing and what you'd like to do. Then just go for it, keeping an eye on things and making adjustments if needed as you go. Even if you nail every perceived variable of someone else's cook exactly, there are many vague and unperceived variables that can result in a different outcome - or maybe not.
As examples: The last full cooker, higher heat butt cook I did I was at at least 300 lid. No bark issues but I rotated top to bottom. I do spares much higher, rotating if it looks necessary, with no bark issues. Why the difference between your experiences and mine? Dunno. I know my therm is accurate and I am sure you know yours is. There are other variables at play.
Cooking outside is not like cooking inside in an oven. Though this is obvious, more than a few outdoor cooks get frustrated when they try to do the same as someone else but the cook comes out differently, taking longer or shorter, or with some other sort of difference to the result.
Differences between cooks of apparently closely similar variables - even differences within a cook - lead sometimes to frustration, and lead many to believe there is such a thing as 'stubborn' butts and to repeat the barbecue myth that 'every piece of meat is different'. Cooks - the individual people and the individual cooking sessions - can be quite different, despite similar appearances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your examples of "vague and unperceived variables" simply confirm to me the necessity of rotating meat if cooking at higher temps. See, I learned something, so thanks a bunch.
As for the yang to your yen, how many times have I heard that "bbq isn't rocket science", we're all cooking on the same cooker, and you've already established that the meat is standardized...so what's left for this forum to be an educational tool is for data to be recorded and reported. (Sorry if sound too serious.
Anyhow, are we gonna miss some stuff? Sure. Like I mentioned above, there's always gonna be unknown factors that come into play, or "vague and unpercieved variables", as you so aptly put it.... especially if folks are no better at logging data than I am.
Thanks for the insightful response, Kevin. Sounds like I need to do more cooking and spend less time here.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Well, in a word, yes. It's the way you'll figure out what works for you.
Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't ask questions. But knowing someone's temps should, imo, leave you with no more than an impression, not dictate some firm variable that you need to achieve. Datalogging will tell you far less than what your eyes, nose and touch can. Target a temp at the lid vent. Take a look at things periodically, more often if you've changed substantial variables, or if variables out of your control are different. If some part of the meat you're cooking is cooking too fast from direct heat you can smell it and see it. If necessary, you can touch that spot and tell too. The same goes for more general uneven cooking. But rotating takes just a couple minutes if it's necessary, or sticking a piece of foil under or alongside something that seems to need a heat deflector.
You'll get more out of participatory cooking than keeping the focus on cooktemps.
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
Kevin, I'm really tempted to just stick to my tried and true low/slow with water in the pan and Stubbs, but you've got me thinking...
...and I think I'll go ahead and try to get 'em done tomorrow in under 12 hours, cooking at about 275, no mopping, just checking and rotating halfway through. Is that a reasonable plan in YOUR experience? Also, do you suggest flipping the butts as well when rotating/turning butts?
Thanks for the additional insight about "particapatory cooking". Yep, sounds like that would help more, and maybe I need to change my signature.
...and I think I'll go ahead and try to get 'em done tomorrow in under 12 hours, cooking at about 275, no mopping, just checking and rotating halfway through. Is that a reasonable plan in YOUR experience? Also, do you suggest flipping the butts as well when rotating/turning butts?
Thanks for the additional insight about "particapatory cooking". Yep, sounds like that would help more, and maybe I need to change my signature.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Well, maybe.
If not your signature, then maybe your style.
I am not one to hang around the cooker. I've other things to do - sometimes I'm in the kitchen working on other stuff, sometimes working on different ranch stuff. But I cruise by it from time to time. And I stop to smell, to look (through the vent hole sometimes, other times I lift the lid); if anything needs to be checked - bark, burn evenness, cooking evenness, I do. I've been cooking a long time. Years of doing, smelling, touching, tasting (I have never understood cooks who don't taste while cooking) and it's very second nature. That's experience. Anyone can develop their talents by doing - and it happens most quickly if you bring all your senses into it. The brain has an amazing ability to associate different sensory experiences with the circumstances at hand. Smell, in particular, is vital. After some time, without you necessarily realizing it, you will make meaningful associations - this look means this, this smell means that, this touch means this (like learning the 'probe going in like butter' feel meaning done), and so forth. For this to work well one must build a repertoire of small experiences that will, together, add up to a synergistic dynamic.
If you're just lookin', maybe you're not cookin'. If you're going to look, look. Smell, touch, taste. That's participatory cooking.
See this for a little more.
I never flip butts, myself. Take a look at them a third of the way along. See if you note signs of uneven cooking. I just lift the lid and look. If necessary, I remove the upper grate to see the meat on the bottom. It does not hurt to rotate (turn the meat in its current position so that the side of the meat that is closest to the wall of the cooker is turned so that it is now closest to the middle of the grate) - and it doesn't hurt to rotate top to bottom (exchanging the butts on the top with those on the bottom). If you're unsure, just go ahead and do it. But look at the butts - the bottoms and sides of those on the bottom grate, especially, and the outside surfaces of those on the top, so that you gain the experience of what they look like.
Note: If I think I'm might do something, like the above, I close the lower vents entirely before lifting the lid, remembering to re-position them a few minutes after returning the lid.
Over time - over time, participating by using your senses - in various but similar cooking situations, you will learn what you need to do, or not do. You may find, e.g., that this type of meat, loaded this way, with this sort of start-up, doesn't need to be rotated at all - or doesn't need it till better than halfway along, or smells this way when getting toward the done window, or looks like this when that has to happen, and so forth.
I am not one to hang around the cooker. I've other things to do - sometimes I'm in the kitchen working on other stuff, sometimes working on different ranch stuff. But I cruise by it from time to time. And I stop to smell, to look (through the vent hole sometimes, other times I lift the lid); if anything needs to be checked - bark, burn evenness, cooking evenness, I do. I've been cooking a long time. Years of doing, smelling, touching, tasting (I have never understood cooks who don't taste while cooking) and it's very second nature. That's experience. Anyone can develop their talents by doing - and it happens most quickly if you bring all your senses into it. The brain has an amazing ability to associate different sensory experiences with the circumstances at hand. Smell, in particular, is vital. After some time, without you necessarily realizing it, you will make meaningful associations - this look means this, this smell means that, this touch means this (like learning the 'probe going in like butter' feel meaning done), and so forth. For this to work well one must build a repertoire of small experiences that will, together, add up to a synergistic dynamic.
If you're just lookin', maybe you're not cookin'. If you're going to look, look. Smell, touch, taste. That's participatory cooking.
See this for a little more.
I never flip butts, myself. Take a look at them a third of the way along. See if you note signs of uneven cooking. I just lift the lid and look. If necessary, I remove the upper grate to see the meat on the bottom. It does not hurt to rotate (turn the meat in its current position so that the side of the meat that is closest to the wall of the cooker is turned so that it is now closest to the middle of the grate) - and it doesn't hurt to rotate top to bottom (exchanging the butts on the top with those on the bottom). If you're unsure, just go ahead and do it. But look at the butts - the bottoms and sides of those on the bottom grate, especially, and the outside surfaces of those on the top, so that you gain the experience of what they look like.
Note: If I think I'm might do something, like the above, I close the lower vents entirely before lifting the lid, remembering to re-position them a few minutes after returning the lid.
Over time - over time, participating by using your senses - in various but similar cooking situations, you will learn what you need to do, or not do. You may find, e.g., that this type of meat, loaded this way, with this sort of start-up, doesn't need to be rotated at all - or doesn't need it till better than halfway along, or smells this way when getting toward the done window, or looks like this when that has to happen, and so forth.
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
Kevin, in all seriousness, you got a book in the works? Great insights, and I really appreciate it. Today, I just decided to relax, and let the cooker do it's thing, not too hot or fast, and use foil to get 'em done in time, and I'll rotate and turn them around then as well. I might try opening the foil back up at the end to firm the bark up when they're about where I want 'em if I have time.
Meat out of the fridge at 5:30 this AM, rubbed and on at 7:30 AM over a full bags of Stubbs w/ 2/3 of a lit chimney, a few hickory and apple chunks around the sides, vents left wide open from the beginning...It's now about 11:00, cooking now at about 265 and one of the butts on the bottom is over 150 IT. I'll rotate, turn, and foil all somewhere in the 160-170's and let temps continue to climb within reason to get them all done. As I get more comfortable cooking at higher temps I'll start a little earlier and not rely on the crutch. I kind of figured that I'd need a whole chimney of lit to get going if I wanted to reach 275 quicker, but it'll be ok.
Thanks again, Kevin!
Meat out of the fridge at 5:30 this AM, rubbed and on at 7:30 AM over a full bags of Stubbs w/ 2/3 of a lit chimney, a few hickory and apple chunks around the sides, vents left wide open from the beginning...It's now about 11:00, cooking now at about 265 and one of the butts on the bottom is over 150 IT. I'll rotate, turn, and foil all somewhere in the 160-170's and let temps continue to climb within reason to get them all done. As I get more comfortable cooking at higher temps I'll start a little earlier and not rely on the crutch. I kind of figured that I'd need a whole chimney of lit to get going if I wanted to reach 275 quicker, but it'll be ok.
Thanks again, Kevin!
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
My pleasure.
The only way to get comfortable cooking at higher temps is to do it. So do so when you fell like it. If you pay attention to what's going on there is little that can happen to mess things up. In the beginning, and for the first few higher heat cooks, you simply pay more attention more often, till you see how things look at different points, etc., till you are confident in predicting the flow.
I do several things consistently so as to remove (or lessen) the variability of those variables: I always Minion the start. For my typical high heat cooks I use 24-25 lit. I spread them out evenly when I place on the unlit. (For unlit I use Comp K, WGC, whatever lump is at hand, doesn't make much difference.) Wood I always cut into smaller pieces (5-6 pieces out of a fist-sized chunk); that gets evenly distributed over the unlit, before the lit goes on. I do not pre-burn wood nor do I bury it.
I foil the pan, leaving an airspace (the airspace I make more substantial for cooks where I will be using the lower grate so as to minimize if not eliminate drying/scorching/overcooking the bottoms of the cuts on the lower grate.
I always load the meat in immediately after adding the lit and assembling the cooker (it's a key point of a Minion start, imo; I don't get the waiting-till-the-cooker-comes-to-temp stuff). I get upper-200s no problem. If that's good enough for what I'm doing, fine. For briskets, ribs and other stuff I prefer to cook at 325-350 or higher, I crack the door when the cooker hits the upper-200s so it can get there.
I temp at the lid, in a vent hole, either with a bimetal analog in a silicone plug, or with my Mav probe dangled in slightly. I do not insert meat probes till after cooking has been underway for a while. I don't temp briskets at all, do not temp ribs (of course), only rarely temp butts (pretty much only if I will be so busy that I might forget them - the alarm helps here).
I never trim butts and only rarely trim briskets (if I do it's just the fat knob at the side where point joins flat). I trim spares SL-style.
The point I'm making here is that being there are enough variables that I cannot control well if at all, I consistently do some things the same way every time. You need not do what I do with the variables I note. But it will help you immensely if you look at these variables, decide how you want to handle each (whether my way or another, your choice), then consistently do the same thing from cook to cook. After consistency is established, you can always alter one variable - dramatically or otherwise - to see what happens, or if you want to see if it is easier or results in better flow or outcome, or for any reason - and see how the cook is affected.
I would add to the list above using a windscreen for every cook, but it is not possible for me to do easily. Were it, I would, and I do recommend it.
I trust your cook is going well today.
The only way to get comfortable cooking at higher temps is to do it. So do so when you fell like it. If you pay attention to what's going on there is little that can happen to mess things up. In the beginning, and for the first few higher heat cooks, you simply pay more attention more often, till you see how things look at different points, etc., till you are confident in predicting the flow.
I do several things consistently so as to remove (or lessen) the variability of those variables: I always Minion the start. For my typical high heat cooks I use 24-25 lit. I spread them out evenly when I place on the unlit. (For unlit I use Comp K, WGC, whatever lump is at hand, doesn't make much difference.) Wood I always cut into smaller pieces (5-6 pieces out of a fist-sized chunk); that gets evenly distributed over the unlit, before the lit goes on. I do not pre-burn wood nor do I bury it.
I foil the pan, leaving an airspace (the airspace I make more substantial for cooks where I will be using the lower grate so as to minimize if not eliminate drying/scorching/overcooking the bottoms of the cuts on the lower grate.
I always load the meat in immediately after adding the lit and assembling the cooker (it's a key point of a Minion start, imo; I don't get the waiting-till-the-cooker-comes-to-temp stuff). I get upper-200s no problem. If that's good enough for what I'm doing, fine. For briskets, ribs and other stuff I prefer to cook at 325-350 or higher, I crack the door when the cooker hits the upper-200s so it can get there.
I temp at the lid, in a vent hole, either with a bimetal analog in a silicone plug, or with my Mav probe dangled in slightly. I do not insert meat probes till after cooking has been underway for a while. I don't temp briskets at all, do not temp ribs (of course), only rarely temp butts (pretty much only if I will be so busy that I might forget them - the alarm helps here).
I never trim butts and only rarely trim briskets (if I do it's just the fat knob at the side where point joins flat). I trim spares SL-style.
The point I'm making here is that being there are enough variables that I cannot control well if at all, I consistently do some things the same way every time. You need not do what I do with the variables I note. But it will help you immensely if you look at these variables, decide how you want to handle each (whether my way or another, your choice), then consistently do the same thing from cook to cook. After consistency is established, you can always alter one variable - dramatically or otherwise - to see what happens, or if you want to see if it is easier or results in better flow or outcome, or for any reason - and see how the cook is affected.
I would add to the list above using a windscreen for every cook, but it is not possible for me to do easily. Were it, I would, and I do recommend it.
I trust your cook is going well today.
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
I hear ya on doing things consistantly. I guess that's the only way to minimize variables, which can be hurdles to success. Speaking of, other than my Stubbs briquettes strangely almost petering out, I guess it's going ok since the temp has seemed to get stabilized at about 300 since foiling/rotating and tapping the cooker legs several times.
The butt on the bottom that I had probed was at 170, and the other one close to it, but the ones on top were only about 155. Since I needed to rotate anyway, I went ahead and wrapped them all. Hopefully I'll have time to open the foil up to mature the bark some.
Thanks for the cooking procedure tips, and thanks for asking.
The butt on the bottom that I had probed was at 170, and the other one close to it, but the ones on top were only about 155. Since I needed to rotate anyway, I went ahead and wrapped them all. Hopefully I'll have time to open the foil up to mature the bark some.
Thanks for the cooking procedure tips, and thanks for asking.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Once they get to tender you can remove them from the foil entirely (careful of juices). You can bump the heat up substantially if you wish, or not, to firm the bark. Just keep an eye on things. If fully tender you don't need to rely on residual cooking during the rest, so you can take some of that time, if available, to attend to the bark. Just a thought.
Dale Perry
TVWBB Guru
Kevin, as usual is dead on. The only thing I do a little different is I make sure I have the smoke puffing good before I add any meat. I like the smoke to be <span class="ev_code_BLUE">blue</span>.
But that is what I like.
But that is what I like.
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
Well, they were done a little quicker than I thought they'd be, so a little mushy for my tastes...not dry, though. I just stuck 'em in the oven and watched the bark, but the biggest mistake I made was pouring too much meat drippings (after skimming fat) back on the pork after pulling. I really didn't think about it I guess, but I won't do that again. The pork was moist enough, anyway.
It had been a while since I did a quick butt cook, so I was like, "Here we go again", when I had to pick out a lot of fat and stuff. I really don't understand how the stuff nearly all renders in my long low-n-slow cooks, but doesn't in an eight hour (w/ foiling) cook, even though I overcooked some. On my last 14.5 hour cook, I didn't throw anything in the trash but the bone and what was left of the fat cap on one of them, and it was perfectly tender and moist, too.
Anyone know if this is just the nature of cooking faster, or is it more associated with foiling?
It had been a while since I did a quick butt cook, so I was like, "Here we go again", when I had to pick out a lot of fat and stuff. I really don't understand how the stuff nearly all renders in my long low-n-slow cooks, but doesn't in an eight hour (w/ foiling) cook, even though I overcooked some. On my last 14.5 hour cook, I didn't throw anything in the trash but the bone and what was left of the fat cap on one of them, and it was perfectly tender and moist, too.
JSMcdowell
TVWBB All-Star
I will go into detail about my cook tomorrow (I have to head to the Church to pull the pork for their dinner), but the numbers on my cook further prove don't cook by smoker temp & food temp.
1 butt was tender at 199, another at 185.
Thankfully all finished up within an hour & half of each other!
1 butt was tender at 199, another at 185.
Thankfully all finished up within an hour & half of each other!
Dave Russell
TVWBB Honor Circle
Josh, you have to go by smoker and food temp to some degree for logistics sake, and I'm finding that Kevin Kruger is right about meat being more standardized nowadays. I normally smoke butts in the 7-9 pound range, and usually get no big surprises. I don't go by IT so much, more just to see how fast one is progressing relative to the plateau, and I plan to check at 185* IT or so... but I do go by certain estimations.
Suppose I'm planning on cooking (4) eight pounders overnight and into the next day with water in the pan and leaving it alone for the most part, 225-250 at the vent. I can tell you without equivocation that I should allow for a 16 hr cook (2 hr per lb.) just to be on the safe side. (I can also tell you that you I wouldn't need that much time if I skipped the water, as the temp would normally climb higher.)
Starting yesterday, I'm just trying to get a feel for how fast I can cook the same butts (or briskets) during the day and not sacrifice results. I know I can cook faster, but as Kevin does, rotation becomes more of a tool on the faster cooks, with no water in the pan, especially.
I really do plan on getting up earlier next time and not wrapping til the end if I can help it, but this cook was a great learning experience for me, and my Thermapen's main job at the end was checking for tenderness. I'm left-handed, anyway.
Suppose I'm planning on cooking (4) eight pounders overnight and into the next day with water in the pan and leaving it alone for the most part, 225-250 at the vent. I can tell you without equivocation that I should allow for a 16 hr cook (2 hr per lb.) just to be on the safe side. (I can also tell you that you I wouldn't need that much time if I skipped the water, as the temp would normally climb higher.)
Starting yesterday, I'm just trying to get a feel for how fast I can cook the same butts (or briskets) during the day and not sacrifice results. I know I can cook faster, but as Kevin does, rotation becomes more of a tool on the faster cooks, with no water in the pan, especially.
I really do plan on getting up earlier next time and not wrapping til the end if I can help it, but this cook was a great learning experience for me, and my Thermapen's main job at the end was checking for tenderness. I'm left-handed, anyway.
JSMcdowell
TVWBB All-Star
Dave,
I agree completely. Use internal and pit temps to plan. A lot of people, myself included, start out depending on these alone though.
I have the thermapen sytle CDN, and it was never turned on, but works great to tell tenderness.
Now that I have done 2 no water butt cooks, I think I am officially switching as long as I can be around every once in awhile. For the cooks that I have to fire and leave, might still use water as a safety measure, but those are rare.
I agree completely. Use internal and pit temps to plan. A lot of people, myself included, start out depending on these alone though.
I have the thermapen sytle CDN, and it was never turned on, but works great to tell tenderness.
Now that I have done 2 no water butt cooks, I think I am officially switching as long as I can be around every once in awhile. For the cooks that I have to fire and leave, might still use water as a safety measure, but those are rare.