Creosol Taste and a Theorem


 
B

Brad

TVWBB Member
I got a theorem I would like to toss out to everyone.

Using water in the water pan produces less of the creosol taste then using the pan filled with sand or empty.

Remember this is just a theorem, don’t kill me. I have been usingthe three different methods with th e water pan for quite a few smokes. Low temp and high temp both. I have not seen a lot of difference with the high temp smokes but some. I do think I taste a difference when using water in the pan compared to the pan empty or with sand on any skoke under 300*. Using water in the pan, to me, does seem to produce less of the creosol taste. I was thinking why this would be and came up with this idea. When using water in the pan the fire has to burn a lot hotter. Because of the fire burning hotter I think less creosol is produced.

What do you all think?

Brad
 
Brad, hate to disagree but I've been doing the empty pan for about six months and have yet to experience any creosote taste on the finished product.I usually do the low and slow cooks. Might be something else like the charcoal or vent settings.
 
Brad,

I have switched over to sand about 6 months ago and tried water a few times in between and I haven't noticed any differences in mine. I do notice a big difference going from kingsford charcoal to lump of any kind. I still use kingsford mostly just because lump is not readily available here in town but I prefer the taste of lump better.

Hello Paul,

We only got 2 weeks left. Maybe you can help me also with the empty pan idea. I have not tried that yet. Can you maintain lower temps or what is your average temp you cook at?

Randy
 
I have done only a few water smokes in the past year or so. Used sand for 90% of them, and just started using crumpled up foil in a foil lined pan the past few cooks. Have not noticed any different flavors between the different methods. I could see on a higher heat coook while using only a foil lined or empty pan, you may get a "burnt" taste from the drippings. Underline the word "may". Are you keeping the top vent 100% open? If not using the Guru or Stoker, that could give you that taste. How 'bout your smoke wood, is it seasoned? To much bark on the smoke wood? Some people here have noticed a difference when having to much bark on the wood. If you figure anything out, please post.
 
I am not asking if I can taste the difference, I know I can. Maybe I am one of the sensitive ones. I will smoke meats with very little spices/sauces for the wife at the same time as one with all the good stuff for my self. I can really taste the difference with-without water in the pan on the meat with little spices. Slightly on the full spiced meat. I am not saying this taste is unacceptable, just trying to do it better. Been doing one to two smokes a week. Been using Kingsford new briquettes and BBQ Galore hard wood lump and what ever brand BBQ Galore sells for the smoke wood. Top vent is ALWAYS open full. I think this creosol taste is because the fire is not burning hot enough. Do we all agree on this point? It has been over 103* lately and the smoker is in the sun so the fire needs to add very little heat to the system. The smoker by itself, in the sun, sits at over 160*. Maybe I could do a few smokes with the smoker in the shade and let the breeze or blow a fan on it so the fire will burn hotter…..I was also thinking of doing a maze on the fire grate to reduce the amount of burning coals but they would have to burn faster to keep the temps up. I will post the outcome.

Brad
 
Brad,
I agree. A charcoal fire will begin to add a bitter taste on the meat if the temp is too low. This can be accomplished with no pan, water, sand, foil layers, etc.
I notice a bitter taste creeping in if I let the cooker drop below around 210. If I want to cook at a low temp, I use a fire ring that is smaller in diameter. Smaller, hotter fire = clean smoke. The extra energy required from a water cook may be keeping you fire hot enough to burn cleanly. I'm using two bullets this weekend at the Blue Springs contest. I'll take some measurements.
 
Brad,

I'm inclined to agree with you on this one. I started using the BBQ GURU with an empty pan this summer. If I've got the smoker loaded up with meat, everything seems fine. However, if I only have a slight load, like a couple racks of ribs, the GURU is barely cycling on to keep the temps up. When this happens, I don't seem to get much smoke flavor, and often what flavor there is I would describe as "musty." I've been thinking myself that I might go back to some water in the pan, just to make the fire burn a little hotter.

Another thought I had was to increase the amount of wood relative to the charcoal. By this I mean the same amount of wood, just less charcoal. I never seem to come close to burning it all anyway!

Interesting thread, let's keep it alive.

JimT
 
I’m not sure if the issue is what’s in the water pan; I would think it’s more of an issue of what is being used for heat, i.e., Kingsford, and what condition it’s in. Try using just lump and seeing if you notice a taste. I’ve been using lump, specifically Big Green Egg lump, without water in the pan for about six months not and I would not go back to briquettes. Lump burns much cleaner plus it does not have the odor that briquettes have. Also, when do you put your meat into the WSM? I put the meat into the WSM at least 30 minutes after it’s been assembled to avoid the thick white smoke that occurs when it’s first assembled. To me, the thick white smoke gives the meat, especially chicken, a slightly bitter taste.

Ken
 
I have used both the Kingsford Briquets and the BBQ Galore hard wood lump. I taste less with the lump but still there. I sometime think I wait to long to put the meat on so I don’t think it is that. There is no white smoke coming out the top when the meat goes on.

I think JimT’s idea of if the load is low because of the amount of meat in the smoker then the fuel will burn slower/colder. More load , faster/hotter. Same thing I have seen with water(large load) compared to no water (low load). Most smokes I do have smaller amounts of meats.

When I am doing something at the 230* to 240* on a hot sunny day with a small amount of meat in the smoker the top vent is open 100% and the bottom vents are at 0%, 20%, 20% to keep the temps down. When I use the home made controller

http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9270072103/m...030038934#2030038934
here

The fan is running about 5%. Not Much to keep a hot fire going.

How about a maze type charcoal ring that the fire has to follow so very little is burning but burning hot?
 
Just two cents for the kitty...something to think about...

Creosote develops when your fuel is burning incompletely. Lower temps would encourage incomplete burning...I would think. Poor oxygen intake could be a big reason for both low temps and creosote. Damp fuel could also be a source, for much the same reason.

Also, any creosote in the smoke would have a much greater chance of condensing on cold meat or cool surfaces. Water pans would tend to be a surface that creosote would condense on.

My theory would be that a hot fire and no water pan would be ideal.
 
I failed to mention in my previous post that I've been using Royal Oak lump, and starting the MM burn with about 20 briquets of the new Kingsford.

Typically, I'll bury 4 or 5 chunks of wood (Half fist size? About 2.5 inch cubed) just so I can see the top of them through the charcoal. I then put a couple more chunks on top, then pour the lit K over all.

I'll be experimenting over the weekend (weather permitting) and post the results.

Brad, you too!! I still think you're on to something.

JimT
 
If you are using a homebrew temp controller that has a fan running 5% of the time, perhaps the controller is a factor. I assume that your fire has a lot of access to Oxygen when the fan is running and little to no Oxygen 95% of the time. Contrast that to a WSM without controller. It will usually have a constant supply of Oxygen. Perhaps the periods without Oxygen are the cause of the bad taste.

Try an experiement and see if you get the bad taste without your controller.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ken Keating:
Good article on creosote.

http://www.barbecuen.com/burningwood.htm

Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Ken, that was informative. And Smokey's always a trip to read, isn't he?

Sounds like we're all pretty much on the same page here, and starting to zero in on what is needed. A hot fire with plenty of air.

Those of us that have chosen the route of automatic temp control and no water in the pan may need to make some adjustments to accomplish this.

For what it's worth, I have noticed that "shiney black build up" that Smokey referred to on the inside of my WSM (especially the lid) and it is not flaking off as you would normally expect!
icon_eek.gif


JimT
 
DW FrommerII, If I don’t use the water pan the load on the system is so small the fire is burning at such a low rate I believe more creosote is produced. By adding the water pan the fire will burn hotter, less creosote, and if some wants to stick to the pan so be it, less to get on the meat. I notice the problem more when I am doing a small amount of meat. I am thinking this is because there is very little load on the fire. By adding the pan I would think this is the same as having a lot of meat in the smoker. Maybe the answer is some where in between. Lots of meat-no water, very little meat-water. Just an idea, what do you think?

David Lohrentz, I have used the WSM with both the controller with and without, more with out. Some smokes all the lower vents are all closed to keep it under 240*. http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/beefrib1.html . Again this is when I have very little meat in the smoker, it is over 100* out, no breeze, smoker in the sun. I looked at the temp of the WSM Saturday, just sitting in the sun and it was 93* outside the temperature inside of the WSM was 165*. It would not take a lot more energy to get it to 240*. Maybe in the winter this will change.

Sunday I tried a charcoal maze. I was thinking this would keep a few coals burning hot. If you could picture two 6” tall pieces of sheet metal bent into a question mark. One upside down. The half circles in the center of the fire ring with one leg of the question mark going out to the fire ring in one direction and the other leg going in the opposite direction. I added the lit coals into the center. My thought was it would then burn in two directions towards the outer ring, then follow the ring around. I have a picture of this maze but forgot to bring it in to post. It looked like it was working good for the first part of the smoke, Bright red coals in the center burning to the outer ring. About three hours into the smoke the outer coals caught fire from the heat being transferred through the sheet metal. Darn. Maybe a dual wall or something thicker. When this happened since there were so many more coals burning the coal were burning colder, not near as red.

Last night I saw a web site of one of the big smoker builder that uses a charcoal maze. The picts of it were not real good but it looked quite simple. It was a square box with a back and forth maze. I’m thinking this is the way to go, keeping just a few coals lit and burning hot which in turn will burn the wood hotter. I don’t remember what the site was, sorry.

Jim T, Keep us up to date on what you have going.

Brad
 
Jim,
I also have that shiney black coating on the lid. (Guru/sand user) I think most of this is from the WSM getting up to temps, when you see the "bad" smoke coming out. That is why a while ago, I stopped putting the meat on soon as I put the WSM together. I wait for the temps to get up, and then the smoke to burn a little cleaner.
For some reason, when I DO use water in the pan, (Maybe 3 times a year) all that shiney blak stuff on the lid, turns brown and flakes away. I have no reason why this happens, but that's when the WSM gets cleaned lol. Try doing a long cook with water in the pan, see if that happens to you also.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JimT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ken Keating:
Good article on creosote.

http://www.barbecuen.com/burningwood.htm

Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Ken, that was informative. And Smokey's always a trip to read, isn't he?

Sounds like we're all pretty much on the same page here, and starting to zero in on what is needed. A hot fire with plenty of air.

Those of us that have chosen the route of automatic temp control and no water in the pan may need to make some adjustments to accomplish this.

For what it's worth, I have noticed that "shiney black build up" that Smokey referred to on the inside of my WSM (especially the lid) and it is not flaking off as you would normally expect!
icon_eek.gif


JimT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Thanks for that tip Bob!

I think I'll try that soon, but maybe "tent" the meat with some parchment paper in case it gets really flakey.
icon_wink.gif


JimT
 
Here's an update on a cook I did Sunday, a small 7 pound brisket. This was a little bigger than than I would have liked for a "small cook" experiment, but hey, it's what's for dinner!

Working on the "fewer coals, get them to burn hotter" idea, I used a 10 inch ring made from expanded metal. With 4 small chunks of apple buried in the lump, it looked like this. I used about 20 briquets of new K to start the fire, and set 2 fist size chunks of hickory on top seen here. I assembled the smoker with an empty foil lined water pan.

I got the usual white smoke pouring out for about 20 minutes, then it died down, took on more of that "blue" cast, then disappeared altogether. For the first couple of hours, the GURU chugged along at about 50 percent on/off. As the meat temp rose, however, it slowed way down to barely coming on. At that point I dumped a 2 liter pop bottle of water into the pan. This helped for a while, but after an hour the GURU had slowed back down to the "barely on" cycle.

At about this time I noticed there was no longer that "somethings cooking, drive your neighbor nuts" smell in the air. A quick sniff over the vent told me there was no wood burning, only charcoal. Peeking in the access door, I could see the remains of one of those hickory chunks, but not the other. It was completely black, but not glowing or smoldering. I gave things a gentle stir to see what would happen.

Within a few minutes, I again saw a few wiffs of smoke coming out the vent. Don't know if it was that hickory piece, or one of the apple chunks that had been buried. This too, only lasted a few minutes. Since the meat was at the plateau level, and I would be wrapping it in foil to finish, I got a little worried that it actually hadn't gotten enough smoke. I threw another chunk of apple on for good measure.
icon_rolleyes.gif
That piece was thin, and probably burned quite quickly, but seemed to produce nice smoke for 20 minutes or so.

I know I'm getting a little wordy here, so I'll cut to the chase. The 10 inch fire ring doesn't hold enough fuel for a 10 hour cook. I added more lump when I foiled the meat. I don't think it forced the coals (or the wood) to burn "hotter" either. No science here, just my perception. Other than not lasting as long, the fire and GURU performance seemed quite "normal." After thinking about this for a while, it makes sense. We're using the Minion Method, which lights coals gradually, based on demand. You could have a football field full of charcoal, and they would only light/burn as fast as you told them to based on natural or assisted draft.

I keep coming back to the same conclusion, and agree with Brad. You've got to have a "load" on your smoker to get a clean burn.

Oh, and the brisket? The wife just repeated to me that it was really good!

Cheers!

JimT
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JimT:
Thanks for that tip Bob!

I think I'll try that soon, but maybe "tent" the meat with some parchment paper in case it gets really flakey.
icon_wink.gif


JimT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if it will happen to you, but it has me. I haven't had any fall onto the meat during the cook, but after I shut it down after the cook and it cools, that is when I saw the brown flaky stuff on the lid, not during. This is after running sand for 3 months or so, then one cook of water. Happened the last 3 times anyway.
icon_eek.gif
 
Bob, I've been doing the no water in the pan for at least six months and have had NO problems with those brown flakes.My lid was like yours shiny and black. I had them all the time when I used water in the pan. I think Doug mentioned in one of his posts one time that he thought it had something to do with the water vapor.
 
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