Jered Crews
TVWBB Member
These responses can all be found in the FAQ section of the Weber site. I think it's safe to say that Marta is reading from a script...
Build up on Lid
- Thread starter Cliff H.
- Start date
Keith Wilson
TVWBB Fan
Here are some pictures of my lid and middle section for some of you to compare. I don;t use a water pan. I use a clay saucer. I don't use "K". I use lump. All I do is once in a while wipe it out with a paper towel.
Inside Lid
Inside Middle Section
Some ribs (Yummmm)
Inside Lid
Inside Middle Section
Some ribs (Yummmm)
Dave/G
TVWBB Emerald Member
Keith,
My lid and middle section looked just like yours except for the rims. IMHO and with all due respect to you and others who have posted in this thread, the build up of "goo" has nothing to do with using lump or not, using water or not, type of wood, etc. It has, again IMHO, to do with cleaning grease off of the rim of the lid and the rim on the cooking section so it doesn't get to form a significant layer. See how clean your rims are. That's why you don't have this "goo" problem. You do a nice job of keeping those areas clean. How and what do you use?
Dave
Keith Wilson
TVWBB Fan
Dave. I just simply wipe the rim with a paper towel. Sometimes after its heated up I'll wet the paper towel and wipe up the outside. Around the door and the top vent. I should mention mine is about two years old and I use it regularly.
I am glad to see that I am not the only one who has had this problem.
I used my wsm last night but before I did I decided to sacrifice a ring of kingsford in order to burn out the inside and burn off my grates.
The results were impressive as it blistered most of the gunk from the lid and mid section wich made it easy to remove with a foil ball.
There was still some on the lid that didn't want to budge but I am wondering I shouldn't be burning it off more than once every three years. HA!
Here are some pics. I have no idea how hot it was inside the wsm as all my gauges maxed out at around 410
I used my wsm last night but before I did I decided to sacrifice a ring of kingsford in order to burn out the inside and burn off my grates.
The results were impressive as it blistered most of the gunk from the lid and mid section wich made it easy to remove with a foil ball.
There was still some on the lid that didn't want to budge but I am wondering I shouldn't be burning it off more than once every three years. HA!
Here are some pics. I have no idea how hot it was inside the wsm as all my gauges maxed out at around 410
Tony Hunter
TVWBB Pro
Wow, thanks for contacting Weber. They were a bit illusive but I think I picked up that they know about this issue. The advice it seems, is to pretty much clean after every use or, at least very frequently. That's what I am doing and I love the smoker enough to live with that.
I am so late to the party on this thread, sorry about that, I just overlooked it somehow...although not sure how you overlook a 6 page thread. I've got a lot going on. Anyway, I digress...
I have never, ever seen that black, tar-like stuff shown in the early photos in this thread, or the black bubbly stuff in Cliff's recently posted photos. I have seen some hard, black stuff that almost looks like lava that has flowed down the inside of the lid and hardened in place. I think I usually see that when I cook brisket, not pork or poultry. And I don't do anything about it as long as it's solid and not flaking off.
My experience has usually been like the photos Mitch posted on Page 3. A bronze coating of what I assume is a mix of combustion particulate and grease and water that runs down the lid and into the middle section pretty much to the level of the water pan. Below that, just a thin, black, baked-on coating down to the charcoal bowl.
What's interesting about this bronze stuff is that it's quite stable immediately after a cook, but if I let the cooker sit unused for a couple of weeks, the coating gets really flaky. So I always make it a habit of checking the status of this stuff before I cook. If it's not flaky, I'll go ahead and cook as-is. If it's flaky, I hit it with the garden hose and brush and it usually comes back to original porcelain finish in the lid. In the middle section, I just brush it. I guess with the lid, I'm afraid the flakes will rain down on my food.
I almost always use water in the pan for low & slow, but an empty foiled pan for poultry. I think I see more of this when using water, and it makes sense given the pattern of how the stuff seems to run down the inside of the lid.
Regards,
Chris
I have never, ever seen that black, tar-like stuff shown in the early photos in this thread, or the black bubbly stuff in Cliff's recently posted photos. I have seen some hard, black stuff that almost looks like lava that has flowed down the inside of the lid and hardened in place. I think I usually see that when I cook brisket, not pork or poultry. And I don't do anything about it as long as it's solid and not flaking off.
My experience has usually been like the photos Mitch posted on Page 3. A bronze coating of what I assume is a mix of combustion particulate and grease and water that runs down the lid and into the middle section pretty much to the level of the water pan. Below that, just a thin, black, baked-on coating down to the charcoal bowl.
What's interesting about this bronze stuff is that it's quite stable immediately after a cook, but if I let the cooker sit unused for a couple of weeks, the coating gets really flaky. So I always make it a habit of checking the status of this stuff before I cook. If it's not flaky, I'll go ahead and cook as-is. If it's flaky, I hit it with the garden hose and brush and it usually comes back to original porcelain finish in the lid. In the middle section, I just brush it. I guess with the lid, I'm afraid the flakes will rain down on my food.
I almost always use water in the pan for low & slow, but an empty foiled pan for poultry. I think I see more of this when using water, and it makes sense given the pattern of how the stuff seems to run down the inside of the lid.
Regards,
Chris
Bit of an old thread, but I'd like to understand this and add my 2 cents.
The amount of Goo in the pictures and described seems like much more than you could get from Creosote. If you're using about 4 fist-sized chunks of wood each time, it would have to be creosote-soaked railroad ties to contain that much goo IMHO.
(have you guys with the problem smelled the goo? Does it smell like railroad ties?)
Isn't the more likely cause vaporization of grease from the water pan?
*With a dry pan, if you've balled up some foil or otherwise kept the top layer that catches the grease from contacting the metal pan (as suggested here http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/waterpanusage.html#foil), then the temperatures will be too low to vaporize the grease.
But if you've just put a single layer in direct contact with the pan, then any grease that hits the pan can smoke and be vaporized.
*With a wet pan, when the water level drops significantly, the rendered grease that was floating on top of the water will be sitting on dry pan/foil. If the water drops enough (or especially if it evaporates completely), the temperature of the pan/foil contacting that grease could get high enough to vaporize the grease.
You guys with the Goo, have you found a solution? If not, what is your foiling or water-adding procedure?
The amount of Goo in the pictures and described seems like much more than you could get from Creosote. If you're using about 4 fist-sized chunks of wood each time, it would have to be creosote-soaked railroad ties to contain that much goo IMHO.
(have you guys with the problem smelled the goo? Does it smell like railroad ties?)
Isn't the more likely cause vaporization of grease from the water pan?
*With a dry pan, if you've balled up some foil or otherwise kept the top layer that catches the grease from contacting the metal pan (as suggested here http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/waterpanusage.html#foil), then the temperatures will be too low to vaporize the grease.
But if you've just put a single layer in direct contact with the pan, then any grease that hits the pan can smoke and be vaporized.
*With a wet pan, when the water level drops significantly, the rendered grease that was floating on top of the water will be sitting on dry pan/foil. If the water drops enough (or especially if it evaporates completely), the temperature of the pan/foil contacting that grease could get high enough to vaporize the grease.
You guys with the Goo, have you found a solution? If not, what is your foiling or water-adding procedure?
Shawn W
TVWBB Emerald Member
I switched to clay saucer back in the summer.
I never had this problem until now. It's not as extreme as some of the others show (no hanging blobs of goo) but it is black and sticky nonetheless.
It's clear to me black goo has become a problem since I stopped using water in the water pan. I have also been doing more cooks with no pan (like a chicken thigh cook). Nothing else has changed for me (well, I did punch a bunch of holes in my WSM by adding extra vents).
Matt's supposition lines up with my experience with the problem. When I used water in the pan I had the brown stuff exactly as Chris described.
I began having the problem after I switched to a clay saucer, foil balls and double foil on the top. The air gap is not enough to prevent the grease from smoking on the pan IMO, and I still hear the sizzling. Also, grease finds it's way invariably through the one or both of the top layers, becomes trapped and smokes away. Further, I haven't always changed even the top layer of foil.
If you use water in the pan but don't top it up eventually you will have liquid in the pan, but smoking grease, not water.
I figure it's got to be accumulated grease smoke along with the regular soot/ash. Once it gets sticky the problem is worse.
I never had this problem until now. It's not as extreme as some of the others show (no hanging blobs of goo) but it is black and sticky nonetheless.
It's clear to me black goo has become a problem since I stopped using water in the water pan. I have also been doing more cooks with no pan (like a chicken thigh cook). Nothing else has changed for me (well, I did punch a bunch of holes in my WSM by adding extra vents).
Matt's supposition lines up with my experience with the problem. When I used water in the pan I had the brown stuff exactly as Chris described.
I began having the problem after I switched to a clay saucer, foil balls and double foil on the top. The air gap is not enough to prevent the grease from smoking on the pan IMO, and I still hear the sizzling. Also, grease finds it's way invariably through the one or both of the top layers, becomes trapped and smokes away. Further, I haven't always changed even the top layer of foil.
If you use water in the pan but don't top it up eventually you will have liquid in the pan, but smoking grease, not water.
I figure it's got to be accumulated grease smoke along with the regular soot/ash. Once it gets sticky the problem is worse.
Teddy J.
TVWBB Pro
Since we are bringing this back to the top - here's an update on my situation.
After I cleaned off all the goo in my earlier photos, I vowed to give the clay saucer mod a try.
Since going with a clay saucer for ALL of my cooks now, I know longer have the issue.
I know we all have our own theories on what caused the brown ucky ooey gooey, and for me it's using water in the water pan.
After I cleaned off all the goo in my earlier photos, I vowed to give the clay saucer mod a try.
Since going with a clay saucer for ALL of my cooks now, I know longer have the issue.
I know we all have our own theories on what caused the brown ucky ooey gooey, and for me it's using water in the water pan.
Gary Bramley
TVWBB Pro
I had this issue when I first started using the WSM. I have never used water in the pan. I was using sand when I experienced the issues. The variables I know I changed were smoking at higher temps and reducing the amount of smoke wood. I switched from a temperature of 245ish in the lid to 245 - 250 at the grate. I use about 3 fist sized chunks for beef and two for pork. (When I experienced the issues I would blow some smoke!) I have not seen the issue with any significance since.
Gary
Gary
Tom Hewitt
TVWBB Member
I had the same problem recently when I used some black cherry that had been sittin on my brother's wood pile for the last 3 years. Wow, the inside of the WSM was a mess. In my case, it was definitely the wood that I used.
After my first several cooks, using water in the pan, I ended up with the gold colored glitter flakes on the inside of the lid. After my last cook, I have the beginning of black goo building up and running down the side.
The difference between the first several cooks and the last was:
First few (Butt, Beer Can Chicken and St. Louis Ribs, Low and slow using lump and the Minion Method to start, lighting 25-30 briquettes of K on the gasser which took less than 10 minutes to be covered with ash, which I then I dumped on the lump. I used several fist sized chunks of Hickory, Oak, Pecan and Alder for smoke. Grill temp quickly rose to 225-250 and the meat was put on a 200-225 grill straight from the refrigerator. I closed all vents after the cook.
The last cook, was halved Chicken hot and quick. I started with a chimney of lump that I lit on the gasser. I don’t know if it was because the lump packed tighter, but after 10 minutes, only half of the lump was glowing and just a wisp of smoke was coming of the top of the chimney. After another 5 minutes I didn’t notice any change, so I dumped it in the fire ring and moved the lit chunks around evenly and dumped a half chimney of lump on that. I used three small chunks of Pecan. I assembled the WSM, using only a foiled pan. I wasn’t keeping temps. But left all vents 100% open. The chicken took about an hour to hit 160 at the breasases, and when removed, I closed all vents. When I cleaned up the cold lump, there was a lot unburned lump. And very little ash.
The main differences that may have caused goo buildup were a shorter cook, higher temp (I assume), no water and, what I think was the problem, a colder, incomplete start (coals not covered with ash). I noticed in one of Tony’s pictures of his start, he had only about 8-9 briquettes for lit, which would make for a longer, colder start.
I think it is a slow, cold start. Just my completely uneducated guess based on my observations. We’ll see as I’m doing rib tips Saturday, low and slow with a faster, hotter start up.
The difference between the first several cooks and the last was:
First few (Butt, Beer Can Chicken and St. Louis Ribs, Low and slow using lump and the Minion Method to start, lighting 25-30 briquettes of K on the gasser which took less than 10 minutes to be covered with ash, which I then I dumped on the lump. I used several fist sized chunks of Hickory, Oak, Pecan and Alder for smoke. Grill temp quickly rose to 225-250 and the meat was put on a 200-225 grill straight from the refrigerator. I closed all vents after the cook.
The last cook, was halved Chicken hot and quick. I started with a chimney of lump that I lit on the gasser. I don’t know if it was because the lump packed tighter, but after 10 minutes, only half of the lump was glowing and just a wisp of smoke was coming of the top of the chimney. After another 5 minutes I didn’t notice any change, so I dumped it in the fire ring and moved the lit chunks around evenly and dumped a half chimney of lump on that. I used three small chunks of Pecan. I assembled the WSM, using only a foiled pan. I wasn’t keeping temps. But left all vents 100% open. The chicken took about an hour to hit 160 at the breasases, and when removed, I closed all vents. When I cleaned up the cold lump, there was a lot unburned lump. And very little ash.
The main differences that may have caused goo buildup were a shorter cook, higher temp (I assume), no water and, what I think was the problem, a colder, incomplete start (coals not covered with ash). I noticed in one of Tony’s pictures of his start, he had only about 8-9 briquettes for lit, which would make for a longer, colder start.
I think it is a slow, cold start. Just my completely uneducated guess based on my observations. We’ll see as I’m doing rib tips Saturday, low and slow with a faster, hotter start up.
I Googled creosote to learn a little about it. This is what I found:
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/AE_creosote.html
Creosote is a liquid byproduct of wood combustion (or distillation) that condenses on the internal surfaces of vents and chimneys. If not removed regularly, it can corrode the surfaces and fuel a chimney fire. Creosote condenses when stack temperatures drop below 250°F, so the type of chimney is very important. An insulated one is desirable. A large, airtight heater in a small home in a choked position will produce creosote regardless of the type of wood burned or its moisture content. Minimize creosote formation by:
http://www.mastersweep.com/wood.htm
Properly seasoned wood produces the most heat, and produces the least creosote. . . . Creosote is the condensation of unburned, flammable particulates present in the exhausting flue gas (smoke). The actual cause of creosote condensation, is the surface temperature of the flue in which the flue gas comes in contact. Like hot breath on a cold mirror, if the surface temperature of the flue is cool, it will cause the vaporized carbon particles in the flue gas (smoke) to solidify. This condensation is creosote build-up. If the wood you are using is rain logged, or green, the fire will tend to smolder. Wet wood causes the whole system to be cool, and inefficient. But, dry wood means a hot fire! A hot fire means a hot flue, and a hot flue means much less creosote.
Back in the early 1980's, tests were conducted to discover which kind of wood created the most creosote in a regular "open" fireplace. The results were surprising. Contrary to popular opinion, the hardwood's, like oak and madrone, created MORE creosote than the softwoods, like fir and pine. The reason for this, is that if the softwoods are dry, they create a hotter, more intense fire. The draft created by the hotter fire moves the air up the chimney faster! Because it is moving faster, the flue gas does not have as much time to condense as creosote inside the chimney. Also, because the flue gas is hotter: it does not cool down to the condensation point as quickly. On the contrary, the dense hardwood's tend to smolder more, so their flue gas temperature is cooler. Thus, more creosote is able to condense on the surface of the flue. So, saying that "fir builds up more creosote than oak" just isn't true! It is a misunderstanding to think that it's the pitch in wood which causes creosote. It's not the pitch that is the problem, it's the water IN the pitch. Once the water in the wood has evaporated, that pitch becomes high octane fuel! When dry, softwoods burn extremely hot!
http://www.bucustommasonry.com/id72.html
Seasoned firewood by definition contains 20 percent moisture or less by weight.
So as I understand it, creosote build up is caused by condensation, which can be caused by a fire that is not hot enough, fuel that is too wet and a cooker top that is too cold. In my earlier post I showed the difference between by first three cooks when I had no build-up and the fourth when there was build up. Here is some more info.
First three cooks, air temp was 68-91º , humidity between 24 and 41%
Last cook, air temp was 59º, humidity 82% and raining, however no rain hit the WSM.
I just put some rib tips and trimmings on. Start air temp was 68 º, humidity 49% and overcast. I’ll see what happens.
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/AE_creosote.html
Creosote is a liquid byproduct of wood combustion (or distillation) that condenses on the internal surfaces of vents and chimneys. If not removed regularly, it can corrode the surfaces and fuel a chimney fire. Creosote condenses when stack temperatures drop below 250°F, so the type of chimney is very important. An insulated one is desirable. A large, airtight heater in a small home in a choked position will produce creosote regardless of the type of wood burned or its moisture content. Minimize creosote formation by:
http://www.mastersweep.com/wood.htm
Properly seasoned wood produces the most heat, and produces the least creosote. . . . Creosote is the condensation of unburned, flammable particulates present in the exhausting flue gas (smoke). The actual cause of creosote condensation, is the surface temperature of the flue in which the flue gas comes in contact. Like hot breath on a cold mirror, if the surface temperature of the flue is cool, it will cause the vaporized carbon particles in the flue gas (smoke) to solidify. This condensation is creosote build-up. If the wood you are using is rain logged, or green, the fire will tend to smolder. Wet wood causes the whole system to be cool, and inefficient. But, dry wood means a hot fire! A hot fire means a hot flue, and a hot flue means much less creosote.
Back in the early 1980's, tests were conducted to discover which kind of wood created the most creosote in a regular "open" fireplace. The results were surprising. Contrary to popular opinion, the hardwood's, like oak and madrone, created MORE creosote than the softwoods, like fir and pine. The reason for this, is that if the softwoods are dry, they create a hotter, more intense fire. The draft created by the hotter fire moves the air up the chimney faster! Because it is moving faster, the flue gas does not have as much time to condense as creosote inside the chimney. Also, because the flue gas is hotter: it does not cool down to the condensation point as quickly. On the contrary, the dense hardwood's tend to smolder more, so their flue gas temperature is cooler. Thus, more creosote is able to condense on the surface of the flue. So, saying that "fir builds up more creosote than oak" just isn't true! It is a misunderstanding to think that it's the pitch in wood which causes creosote. It's not the pitch that is the problem, it's the water IN the pitch. Once the water in the wood has evaporated, that pitch becomes high octane fuel! When dry, softwoods burn extremely hot!
http://www.bucustommasonry.com/id72.html
Seasoned firewood by definition contains 20 percent moisture or less by weight.
So as I understand it, creosote build up is caused by condensation, which can be caused by a fire that is not hot enough, fuel that is too wet and a cooker top that is too cold. In my earlier post I showed the difference between by first three cooks when I had no build-up and the fourth when there was build up. Here is some more info.
First three cooks, air temp was 68-91º , humidity between 24 and 41%
Last cook, air temp was 59º, humidity 82% and raining, however no rain hit the WSM.
I just put some rib tips and trimmings on. Start air temp was 68 º, humidity 49% and overcast. I’ll see what happens.
Dave/G
TVWBB Emerald Member
A few months ago, I had the dreaded black strings hanging from the lid edge, liquid goo. I cleaned the lid out with two applications of a grease remover then went at it with a putty knife. The outside layer of goo was black, but underneath that it was brown. Scraped all that out and rinsed with hose. Since then I've been ok. My problem now is that I can't think of anything I was doing that I'm not doing now that may have caused problem, or vice versa. Maybe once a year or so I'll have to go through the same procedure. I haven't been using water and I go lightly with the wood, so for now, if it ain't broke I won't fix it.
Well, doncha know, you try to run a controlled experiment and everything turns to shid in a hand basket. The good news, after cooking for two hours between 225 and 240, more towards the upper end, I removed the lid to put on some sausages, looked inside the lid and noticed that the dry areas were returning, two ovels about 8” wide down by the the bottom lip, on opposite sides. Sorry, I didn’t think to take pictures or notice where the dry areas were in conjunction to where the vents were. Then it started raining so I slid the WSM under the patio umbrella and sloshed some water on the coals. The grill temp dropped to 209 so I put up my wind screen and roof and the temp immediately climbed up to 241 and leveled out.
This is the inside of my lid after last nights cook.
Before I started, the entire lid looked like the gunk on the right. I think it started to burn off because of the higher lid temp. Grill temp was between 235 and 250 for the last hour. It started raining and the air temp dropped to 57 and humidity rose to 84%, but I covered the cooker so it didn’t get wet and everything stayed warm. I think it is a matter of burning the gunky condensate off the lid with a higher temp after you are done cooking your meat. Tomorrow (going to watch the Raiders lose today), I’m going to build a hot fire and let it go for a while to see if it will burn off. If it works, it seems like that would be easier than scraping and spraying methyl ethyl bad shid on it.
What do y’all think?
Before I started, the entire lid looked like the gunk on the right. I think it started to burn off because of the higher lid temp. Grill temp was between 235 and 250 for the last hour. It started raining and the air temp dropped to 57 and humidity rose to 84%, but I covered the cooker so it didn’t get wet and everything stayed warm. I think it is a matter of burning the gunky condensate off the lid with a higher temp after you are done cooking your meat. Tomorrow (going to watch the Raiders lose today), I’m going to build a hot fire and let it go for a while to see if it will burn off. If it works, it seems like that would be easier than scraping and spraying methyl ethyl bad shid on it.
What do y’all think?