Brisket Has Me Beat


 

James Harvey

TVWBB Pro
Hi All,

I'm throwing in the towel on brisket for the time being. I've tried it 3 times (I know this isn't much) with no progression. I get great colour, nice ring and smoky flavour but it has been dry all 3 times. I cooked the first 2 to almost 200 and foiled them for 30 minutes and 4 hours respectively. The 3rd, I pulled at 185 because it was fork tender and I was wary of drying it out. No better. The briskets I can get are only 8-10lbs with point and flat. I've injected, spritzed, foiled with broth etc...

The brisket has won.

James
 
James,don't give up! Brisket is the absolute hardest thing to master! My first one was great! The next two were terrible,the next two were pretty good,the next the worst one yet,then the next one was fantastic! Do you see a pattern? Keep it up and you will have it mastered in no time.
 
James I feel your pain. I have made dozens and usually my results are much like you have posted. The last one I did was a small 4 or 5 lb one that took forever on a L&S cook. I did not foil until it was almost 180* IIRC and used beef broth in the foil. To my surprise it was one of the better ones I have ever made. I think the cut or grade of brisket might be something I'm missing but I keep on trying!
 
I was thinking about the cut I get. The only place around me that I can get a full brisket is from Loblaws. They get it from Beretta Farms which is an organic farm a few hours away. It comes with a great fat cap but maybe it's a little more lean inside?

I'm not really done but I'm on a break. Next up, beef ribs (great last time) and then a standing rib roast.

James
 
The problem here is likely how you are determining 'done'. If you can get 8-10-pound briskets there shouldn't be a problem. A brisket will stay 'fork tender' for some time after it hits tender - yet be overcooking the entire time. You have to catch it when it hits tender, or shortly thereafter.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
The problem here is likely how you are determining 'done'. If you can get 8-10-pound briskets there shouldn't be a problem. A brisket will stay 'fork tender' for some time after it hits tender - yet be overcooking the entire time. You have to catch it when it hits tender, or shortly thereafter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin to catch it at fork tender, how often are you checking the brisket? And at what stage do you start checking?
 
See Kevin, this is my question. Where you may know tender or done by feel I'm still working on figuring it out. I use the average per pound cooking time and start checking tenderness a few hrs before the projected finish. This is why I took the 3rd off at 185 when it was tender to me but it still ended up dry (and this was foiled with broth as well).

As a positive, we've tossed the remaining briskets in a crock pot the day after and it makes a great smokey stew. Some onions, carrots, peppers and potatoes and it's the best stew I've ever had.

James
 
sounds like someone needs to read the high-heat brisket thread...

I've only done a couple of packers but they've both been tender & juicy - the point I chopped up for burnt ends & fed most of it to the dog, it was just too fatty & pretty much unusable.

Both of the ones I did were ~11-13#, bought from walmart, crammed between the handles. One cooked ~275 & the other ~325, & there wasn't much difference in cook time between the two.
 
Hey James I have a dumb question. How old is the thermometer you're using? Have you used it on anything else? Maybe it's not accurate.
 
Brisket is my nemesis too!

I keep struggling but have yet to do a 'perfect' one. Others chide me with "Perfection is the enemy of good enough!"
 
I've heard that sometimes you'll catch them when they're starting to get tender, but before they've had a major conversion of collagen and fat - so they're dry. They're done, but they're undercooked so to speak because they've not been basted with juices.

Just something I read - I'm not the best brisket cook either.
 
I had the same dry brisket issues until I switched to high heat. I can only get flats here, but now they come out great.
 
Thanks all.

Chuck - I'm using an ET-73 calibrated (validated ?) regularly along with an instant read therm.

As for HH, I figure I bought a smoker to enjoy the cooking process. If I need to grill it (offset) I'll just give it a few hours of smoke and finish it in the oven while I nap.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've heard that sometimes you'll catch them when they're starting to get tender, but before they've had a major conversion of collagen and fat - so they're dry. They're done, but they're undercooked so to speak because they've not been basted with juices. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not exactly. If they are 'starting to get tender' they have already had a 'major conversion of collagen and fat'. If underdone, i.e., not yet in the beginning of the tenderness window, the meat will read as dry in the mouth (and chewy/tough) because sufficient rendering has not yet occurred. Much moisture has been squeezed out of the contracting muscle fibers, which contract as they get past specific temps, yet enough conversion has not taken place to lubricate the fibers so that they part easily, hence the toughness/chewiness.

When sufficient rendering has occurred the window opens, so to speak. For a period of time (which varies depending on cut quality (read: grade), thickness and cooktemp), the meat will become more moist and tenderness will increase then stabilize - then go downhill as trapped moisture and rendering drip away. The meat will become drier. The texture will become tender-ish (chewable) but stringy and the mouthfeel will become drier.

Clint- If the point is too fatty you can just cook it longer. You can do this in th cooker or in the oven. I am not a big fan of burnt ends so I usually save the point and use it for other things. Though already cooked, it braises very well, rendering out additional fat (which can be removed; I like it), and is excellent chopped and used for chili.

James-- See below.

I exclusively smoke packers. I like the point too much (for other things, as noted above), but packers are easier to cook anyway: their mass (thickness) makes them better cook-wise, primarily.

I cook briskets at high heat (as shown here and here, among others) because I find the cooks consistent from cook-to-cook and, more important, end-to-end of the brisket itself.

Flats can work quite well at HH.

Low/slow is fine for brisket (I used to do them that way myself) but because of the vagaries of butchering and grades, are usually not as consistent, especially end-to-end. For Select grade I think high heat is clearly a better route to go. For regular Choice I still prefer high heat but low/slow can be just fine. For Top of Choice, CAB and the like, either way. For Prime and Wagyu I prefer low/slow, usually at temps lower than typically used.

For best results, especially if new to smoking briskets:

Cook packers. Many say they don't need that much meat. I often cook for just two myself. No matter. The cooked meat will freeze well; it's good is many things - chili, as noted, enchiladas, fillings for pepper or omelets (makes great stuffed cabbage), etc. It's easier to learn how to cook brisket to your liking if you cook packers.

If you can, get Choice or CAB or Top of Choice. Jut makes it easier. If Select is all that is available I would suggest a high heat approach - at least for you first few.

If flats are all that's available (note: at many places you must ask for whole briskets - they do not put them out in the case) then select wisely. Many people get discouraged in the smoking-brisket pursuit because they select, frankly, crummy meat. 2- and 3- and 4- - even, often 5-pound pieces of brisket flats are not worth bothering with. They might be fine for braising (usually they are) but are usually not very good for smoking. It's not the weight, most often, but the thickness that is the problem. Many retailers sell very trimmed, thin pieces of flats. These are not good candidates.

Despite what one reads all over the place, internal temperature will not tell you when your brisket is tender. It can't. It has nothing to do with it. Cook time relative to cooktemp relative to the cut being cooked is the issue. A particular temp might correlate with tender (in one case or another) but it does not cause it. I think this is one of the hardest things for many cooks to grasp.

I do not temp at all during high heat brisket cooks. (It's fine if you wish to before the foiling stage; I don't.) After foiling a high heat brisket internal temp is useless. For low/slow cooks internal temps can be used to tell you when to check for tenderness but in all honesty this only works if the brisket you start out with is of sufficient quality and thickness for the temp to possibly have any meaning.

(I am often asked when to check for tenderness. I the case of high heat briskets it's easy, about 3:45-55 into the cook. For low/slow it is utterly dependent on quality. If the brisket is a thin, overtrimmed piece of a flat I really can't help. The cooking dynamics of a cut like that are so not predictable. If cooking a packer, however, or a nicely marbled thick flat, the dynamics (the how's and why's of the process) are more predictable. In that case I suggest starting to check for doneness in the mid- to upper 180s. This gives you a benchmark. If your probe goes in with effort give it a good 45-60 minutes before checking again. (If cooking high heat and your probe goes in with effort give it only 20-30 min, tops.) When you check again, if th probe goes in effortlessly: done. If it goes in with some resistance, check in 15 or so (for high heat, less). Don't overthink it. Just probe quickly - once or twice, no need to poke all over - in the middle of the flat (whether cooking just a flat or a packer) and get the feel of it.)

Many here have posted of their initial resistance or trepidation regarding checking for tender. On boards and in books too much emphasis has been placed on internal temps. This is unfortunate. Imo, it is the most important thing one can learn. If you're not used to it, it can take a little time, but most of the issue is getting over the whole temp thing. Several here have posted their 'miracle moment' when they got the feel down for the first time. When you can tell the doneness of barbecue by feel - be it brisket, butt or ribs - you can cook all of these meats, at a variety of temps, on all sorts of cookers, in all sorts of conditions, anywhere you go.
 
First off I think K Kruger was suggesting primarily 'Undercooked' and I'd agree.

Secondly, try foiling at 155ºF - 160ºF internal.

Lastly, 20 minutes is perhaps all you need to rest foiled toweled in a cooler. Slower more even cooling helps the meat retain more moisture.
 
One more point I suppose, try to enjoy your labors, not bemoan less than orgasmic results.

Perhaps chase 'nirvana' smoked brisket results if you buy prime quality or better every time.
 
James, I have just finished my second brisket and it was just over 9 lbs. I cooked it to 140 then foiled and brought it to 170/172 before toweling and leaving it in a cool box for 4 hrs. The final temp rose to 185 while resting. Total time cooking 7 1/2 hrs and then the 4 for resting. Like everyone here we have had our success and failures and hopefully you stick at the brisket as I am 100% converted to it after doing dozens of pork butt.
Cheers
Alan
 
James, I suspect your problem has greatly to do with the size of the packers you've been getting, and maybe they're too lean or trimmed as well. For some reason I get better moisture from heavier (choice preferred) ones and trim little if at all, fat side down on the wsm.

I can understand your wanting to get it the way you like without "the crutch", but regardless, you'll always get more moisture if you inject, then foil at 160 with some liquid. Good luck with it.
 
I'm with Kevin 100% on the overemphesis of getting to the "right" temperature to get a properly cooked brisket. I've employed low&slow, medium heat and high heat methods with good success. I usually use the medium heat method with some foiling near the end. But the best use of the temperature probe for me is to determine doneness when I insert it into the point and flat of my brisket. The meat should offer slight resistance to insert the probe and then offer minimal resistance. Its hard for me to come up with a good analogy for the "feel" of inserting the probe.....I just developed it from experience.

If for some reason I don't get a great brisket, then I just cube it up in small pieces and it will make the best chili you have ever made. Just use your favorite recipe.

Randy
 

 

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