Another way to skin a cat


 

TomRc

TVWBB Pro
I’ve never had much success in driving out the the frozen / seized bolt that is common to the left side cook box. Maybe I’m just not hitting the punch hard enough for fear of shattering the tub by using too much force. Instead, I have found my own technique that has yet to fail me and figured it might be worth a share. I use a very small drill bit at slow speed to drill a series of holes into the cook box all around the stuck bolt before employing the punch. To do this, I use a 1/16” thunder bit on a slow speed and position it to just barely touch the very edge of the bolt with the bit as I start the hole. By doing this, the bit will walk just enough that you are drilling aluminum only while remaining extremely close to the bolt. I’ve found that 8 evenly spaced holes around the bolt work well at which point I am able to remove the bolt with a single solid whack with the punch. You’re left with a hole that look like an external star washer, so I then open the holes in the cook box and frame crossmember to a clean 3/8” with a step drill bit and reassemble it all with new 3/8” SS hardware. FWIW - I’m doing this freehand with a cordless drill and it might take me 20 minutes from start to finish to do the project. Guys with a drill press are sure to make this process look even easier. I’m also working almost exclusively with open frame, side control models, so your results may vary. I, or maybe someone else who decides to give this technique a try, will hopefully chime back in with a video the next time one of these little buggers rears it’s ugly head. For now, my description should be good enough that someone can make use of this method.
 
First I inspect the firebox to make sure it’s not too brittle, no holes, warps, etc before spending effort removing stuck bolts. I usually use the torch to heat the bolt and the surrounding area. That usually works. If not I use your method of drilling.
 
More trouble than it's worth. Just grind it off flat and carefully drill out. Start with a small and finish with a 3/8" IIRC (could be 1/4") been a while. I know I will be doing mine this spring or summer. Never whack it with a hammer or punch (except to lightly center punch). Cast aluminum that has gone through many heat/cool cycles and has age get very brittle and will shatter
 
More trouble than it's worth. Just grind it off flat and carefully drill out. Start with a small and finish with a 3/8" IIRC (could be 1/4") been a while. I know I will be doing mine this spring or summer. Never whack it with a hammer or punch (except to lightly center punch). Cast aluminum that has gone through many heat/cool cycles and has age get very brittle and will shatter
All must be well in the world as Larry has arrived yet again to pan any thought that doesn’t align with his own. I never would’ve thought 8 little holes ( or more if you’re that concerned) and 20 minutes of time would’ve been seen as such “trouble” or run the risk of “shattering” anything, particularly when there is so little aluminum left in contact with the bolt after doing so. But hey, Larry said it so it must be true. In fairness, I promise to check back in with photographic evidence for the enjoyment of all when my method busts a tub, but it hasn’t happened yet in 5+ years. As for drilling out the bolt, that’s easier said than done when you come across stainless hardware in situations like this. The average Joe isn’t going to invest into TiAIN coated Cobalt bits and high sulfur cutting oils. Nope, they’re just going to burn up their regular bits and get frustrated without an alternate method. I think I’m go back to lurking. The expertise on here can be downright oppressive at times.
 
All must be well in the world as Larry has arrived yet again to pan any thought that doesn’t align with his own. I never would’ve thought 8 little holes ( or more if you’re that concerned) and 20 minutes of time would’ve been seen as such “trouble” or run the risk of “shattering” anything, particularly when there is so little aluminum left in contact with the bolt after doing so. But hey, Larry said it so it must be true. In fairness, I promise to check back in with photographic evidence for the enjoyment of all when my method busts a tub, but it hasn’t happened yet in 5+ years. As for drilling out the bolt, that’s easier said than done when you come across stainless hardware in situations like this. The average Joe isn’t going to invest into TiAIN coated Cobalt bits and high sulfur cutting oils. Nope, they’re just going to burn up their regular bits and get frustrated without an alternate method. I think I’m go back to lurking. The expertise on here can be downright oppressive at times.

Larry may not be your cup of tea, but he was simply trying to provide you with some helpful advice. I see no reason for you to post such a hateful reply.
 
Larry may not be your cup of tea, but he was simply trying to provide you with some helpful advice. I see no reason for you to post such a hateful reply.
Larry’s advice was to completely discount a method as wrong despite me having a 100% success rate with it. He instead chose to replace it with the simplest of methods that isn’t always possible. I’m inclined to believe that anyone seeking advice on how to remove one of these bolts has probably already tried drilling it out before seeking additional help here or elsewhere. Varying methods should be encouraged, not pushed aside. Larry’s been here before and has broad shoulders. I don’t see either one of us losing any sleep or holding any grudges when the dust settles.
 
Please explain how this "More trouble than it's worth." said "wrong"? Yeah, it'll work but again why drill multiple holes when you can drill one? You want to do it? Fine, do it. But, NEVER said "WRONG".
 
Yah, several different ways to "skin the cat". Some people will prefer one method over another. I use a different method than either of the two above and will stick with it. But, it probably wouldn't be the best method everyone else.

You see, a person posts up their preferred method, they have a tendency to accentuate the pluses of that method and downplay or not mention possible downsides. Or, they simply don't realize there could be a down side. That is where the comments come in. Some will support your method and some may not, but it is all good info for the next guy who has the same problem and looking for a solution that fits him. That is what this forum is all about, others with like interests, helping their fellow grill enthusiasts.

When I posted my method for removing that cook box bolt, believe me, it got some quick back lash. I knew it would and that is fine. I explained why I use that method and why it works for me.

 
Tom, thanks for the suggestion! It's another arrow in the quiver, is the way I look at it.
 
I just appreciate all the info. Having now taken in three methods, I feel empowered to try to take this sort of project myself and also to get creative should I feel the urge. After all, it's really trial and error and any one of us may come up with a new (and perhaps more effective way) which can then benefit everyone.

Perhaps it helps that I come from a culture where everryone had multiple opinions on every subject. I'm referring to New York Jewish culture. Left when I was 18 and have never gone back. But I still carry parts of the culture with me, one aspect of which is to not take it at all personally when someone disagrees with my ideas. Frankly, mainstream American culture (or midwestern culture, where this phenomenon seems especially strong) came as something of a shock to me when I was a young man. After leaving New York, I'd express an opinion and people would sometimes get offended. I didn't understand why until I came to see that a lot of folks hold their ideas very close to their hearts. So if one says something that might contradict their opinion, they feel hurt or offended. That came as such a surprise to me because I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just came from a culture where it was totally fine to have a different opinion. In fact, what was honorable was to express one's thoughts in a direct and straightforward way.

As a for instance, as a kid in Hebrew school, if the rabbi said something I didn't understand or if I had a different idea, if I had said, "Oh rabbi, you are so wise. I don't understand but want to. I have an idea that's probably wrong. Would it be alright with you if I told you want I'm thinking?", people would have looked at me like I was from Mars. The rabbi would have said, "Just tell me what you're thinking". Other kids would have said, "Stop kissing up". What had honor was to just say it. To say something like, "Rabbi, I don't understand. What about . . . blah, blah, blah?".

So it really surprised me when, on leaving New York, a sincere rejoinder or idea caused offense. It surprised me even more when someone thought me a jerk. I've learned over the years how to say things in mainstream American culture. I still don't always do it well because whatever one learns first gets in so deep. But if I make a mistake, understanding what went wrong gives me a chance to try to set it right.
 
Roy, let me be the first to say, you are amongst friends here! We are here because we like fire and smoke and the adventure that goes along with cooking outdoors and then sharing what we learn. We're not always going to be able to agree, so the best we can do is agree to disagree, and sometimes the written word doesn't always convey intent or inflection, so sometimes things seem to go sideways...but we as true-believers will be back in the morning for another round. Sometimes being succinct can come across as being curt, and sometimes expressing feelings can come across as being maudlin (not very often I get to use the big words but boy my momma sure would be proud!)...it's all good!
 
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Live in New York City once but leave before it makes you hard
Live in northern California once but leave before it makes you soft
 
Live in New York City once but leave before it makes you hard
Live in northern California once but leave before it makes you soft
I've lived in both places. New York can make one hard but it can also give one heart and depth. People in New York aren't cold; not really. They may seem that way at first but as soon as one gets beyond the outer crust, which is a defense against the intensity, the crowds, the speed of life, the chaos . . . one finds such heart, such richness, closeness, softness, kindness. Sincerity too.

Didn't spend enough time in California to really get to know it well. Just a couple of years in the mid 80s and, at the time, it seemed like people cared mainly about the car you drove, the clothes you wore, that sort of thing. But there's another dimension to life in the west, more generally. I've lived many years in Arizona and the Pacific Northwest. I find that people invest, on the west coast, in creating richness in their personal environment (if they can afford it). So the houses are nicer, the kitchens and bathrooms fancier. An east coaster might see it as shallow but I no longer think that. It's just a different value system -- one that values beauty, one that values a certain kind of refinement.

I've spent time in many cultures. I find things I like (or love) about all of them (and challenges too). I'm not sure if it's a gift -- perhaps a lack of groundedness -- but whenever I'm in a culture for a while, it begins to rub off on me and I get insight into what it's like to be a part of that place. So when I spend time in Paris, I came to appreciate street art, a long drawn out meal. Anything that didn't get done today would get done tomorrow. A far cry from my native New York City, where everything was about efficiency most of all. Coming back to the U.S., for a time I felt like a foreigner and saw American culture through their lens. In the airports on my way home, Americans seemed like bees -- buzzing about this, about that. About what they do for a living, what they're up to, the project they're working on, their next project. I thought it very strange because it seemed they were missing out on now. Of course, before long I was back in American culture and it was just water to the fish.

I'm not saying France is better. Each culture has its strengths and weaknesses. Which one we like says (at least) as much about us as it does about the culture. I particularly enjoyed Slavic cultures. But then maybe that makes sense, given that all four of my grandparents were born in that part of the world -- in Poland, in Russia, in Ukraine, depending on the date and where the borders were drawn at the time. I find Slavic people so full of life, so idealistic, so heartfelt, so tragic. As a Jew, I was taught to fear those places. I was taught that if I ever went there, it would be like going into the heart of darkness and people would skin me alive if they knew I was a Jew. In fact, what I experienced was very much the opposite. So much warmth and kindness, so much care and generosity. It blew me away because we Americans aren't like that except with family and close friends. There, people will meet you and immediately want to share what they have, no matter how meager. If you need, they'll give you the shirts off their backs -- literally. Of course, if they're angry, they'll express that too. They have high standards and expect much of others. They're madly romantic and can become deeply cynical. They revere education, cultural literacy, refinement and justice. In a way I felt they were more Jewish than we New York Jews were. It was shocking but then I thought about it and realized that having come up from a family who immigrated from that region, it was no wonder I felt so at home there.
 
As a for instance, as a kid in Hebrew school, if the rabbi said something I didn't understand or if I had a different idea, if I had said, "Oh rabbi, you are so wise. I don't understand but want to. I have an idea that's probably wrong. Would it be alright with you if I told you want I'm thinking?", people would have looked at me like I was from Mars. The rabbi would have said, "Just tell me what you're thinking".

"He [Hillel] would also say: ... a bashful one cannot learn, a short-tempered person cannot teach..." - Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers), 2:5

 
"He [Hillel] would also say: ... a bashful one cannot learn, a short-tempered person cannot teach..." - Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers), 2:5

Yes, one of the things I respect about Jewish culture is its emphasis on truth. This is not unique to Judaism by any means. Veritas vas Liberabit is on the seal of many great universities founded by Christians. It means the truth shall set you free. But in practice, I find that Jewish culture lionizes truth seeking over pretty much everything else. Which is laudable but has downsides too. For instance, there is sometimes a distinct lack of politeness.

This juxtaposes with many Islamic cultures, which lionize themes like politeness. Now their politeness is different than the American variety as it grows out of a spiritual practice called adab in Arabic. Adab translates to politeness in English but our word doesn't really capture it. It's more about accepting as truth that everything that comes to you is from God and is a gift, intended just for you and is a mercy as your learn and grow into the truth of who you are. So if someone is screaming at you, this is a gift from God and your job is to respond as God would want you to. To ask, "What is being asked of me in this moment?"

Now that's of course a cultural ideal and people fall short of it all the time. People also interpret it in crazy ways that lead certain folks to behavior that is anything but spiritual. As in all religions, there is a fundamentalist element that's more political than religious. But in mainstream Islamic culture, people strive to follow these teachings around adab, and it shows up in a level of politeness which is so much more than a western suppression of one's true response, which can feel (and be) insincere. Rather, people strive to hold others in compassion. To not judge others because there's a recognition that only God is qualified to judge.

The upshot is that I find it much more pleasant to hang with Muslims than Jews. When, standing between these two worlds, I've participated in efforts to bring them together, it's hard to get them to relate. The Jews want to talk and explore paradigms, Ways of thinking and being. The Muslims want to be polite so they listen and don't really respond. The Jews tend to think the Muslims standoffish. Like people who don't want to engage. To the Muslims, the Jews seem to not want to stand close or engage heart to heart.

When I've hung with Muslims, there have been times when other men would stand really close to me. Like right on top of me. At first it was unnerving because I'm an American who's used to a large bubble (particularly these last 40+ years west of the Mississippi). But eventually I got it that this was an expression of emotional closeness. Of a desire to literally and figuratively stand close.

I find that while Jewish culture lionizes truth, Muslim culture lionizes bowing one's head and one's heart to what's moving in the moment. Jewish culture has become overwhelmingly secular. People still carry Talmudic teachings but they don't know it because these teachings are more functions of culture than religion now. Muslim culture remains far more rooted in religion for now so there's more of a sense that what one is carrying as an ideal is worth striving for.

Of course I'm generalizing something awful. Before 9/11, there was a lot of fundamentalism creeping into American Islam. Not among the older generation. They saw it for what it was and often scolded younger people for getting caught up in it. But there was a lot of money flowing in from oil rich places (primarily Saudi Arabia) so fundamentalistic teachings were coming through and gaining influence. 9/11 was a real wake-up call for younger people. Most realized that what the older people were saying was true. Things like "This is not Islam".

Those influences are still around but nowhere near as strong. When people give voice to them, others are much quicker to speak up with rejoinders and reminders that most central to the faith are mercy and compassion. That almost every surah in the Qu'ran begins "Bismi'llah ir-rahman ir-rahim" which means "In the name of the One, the universally merciful, the infinitely compassionate".
 
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For instance, there is sometimes a distinct lack of politeness.

Then you've been around the wrong people. "Derech Eretz", literally "the way of the world", was always insisted upon by my parents and teachers and theirs.

I've met polite and impolite people in every country and society I've visited. Respect and politeness are essential attributes of promoted Jewish teachings. The fact that people fall short in their behavior is the fault of a combination of their personal upbringing, environment, and decisions.
 
Then you've been around the wrong people. "Derech Eretz", literally "the way of the world", was always insisted upon by my parents and teachers and theirs.

I've met polite and impolite people in every country and society I've visited. Respect and politeness are essential attributes of promoted Jewish teachings. The fact that people fall short in their behavior is the fault of a combination of their personal upbringing, environment, and decisions.
There are of course all kinds of people associated with every culture. In my experience, truth is a higher value in Jewish culture than politeness. Far more typical is open dialogue in which no one takes offense if differing ideas are presented. I'm not suggesting that one value is higher than another. In my view, people are people and there really is no difference. We may be raised with different social norms and we may be habituated differently but at the end of the day everyone is equal. All value the same things.
 

 

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